bramoncada Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Ive seen a lot of threads about rough tops and using soy. I started making soy candles a while ago and went with GB 464 because according to the people at candle science it had the best throw. After using that for a while i noticed that the throw was great, my wicking was great, however the tops looked AWFUL. I read a few more threads and decided that i wanted to keep the high throw value of GB 464 but loose the rough tops. After reading more threads i came to the conclusion that CO (coconut oil) would be a likely remedy. I since have been using the CO and it has helped however it still has a rough top and is not perfect.. Which i want. My delimma is that I value having the best throw i can possibly have, but the rough tops are too much to bare. Can we have a discussion about your experience with rough tops and possible SOLUTIONS? THANK YOU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carol k Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Heat gun the tops. Heat guns can be found at walmart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 I'm sorry the "rough tops" wording is confusing. I was more referring to the post burn rough tops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuminousBoutique Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 thats just part of soy some fragrances do it more than others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbiepql Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Even if you heat gun the tops after a customer burns them they will set up pitted and rough - it's the nature of the wax. Same thing with frosting and wet spots - find to find solutions to fixing those issues but as soon as the customer takes it home and the temperature changes, the wet spots reappear - first time customer lights it and the wax sets back up there will be a frost line and a rough top - it's just the way the wax is. If it's more than you can bear consider a parasoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 There is no reason to settle for crappy cottage cheese tops with the selection of waxes we have today and the amount of technical knowledge and tips people have shared. I use NatureWax C3 and have nice, smooth tops all the way to the end of the candle. Its formula is reported to be quite similar to GB 464. Other waxes contain "botanical oils," (cottonseed oil, coconut oil, palm oil, etc.) which help smooth the consistency and stabilize the crystal structure of soy wax. Certain FOs can still mess up even the best wax, but most are compatible with soy wax these days. Some dyes can still encourage frosting, but many dyes are far kinder to soy wax than even 5 years ago. Pretty much, only the "100%" soy waxes (EZ Soy, GB 415, etc.) still have bedhead on a regular basis. Manufacturers and candlemakers have worked hard to learn how to stabilize the appearance of soy wax. There's a lot of information about how to do this in the threads, so if the tops on your candles look like cottage cheese after they are burned, do some studying and you may learn how to get better results. No one has to settle for the "it's the nature of soy wax" excuse these days. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 That was quoted from a user in a different thread.. I'm trying to get to the bottom of this uncertainty here. HAHAHAAH.. EVERYBODY HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wessex Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I have recently started playing with soy wax and have poured testers of many different waxes and blends (of my own). I have been able to get pretty consistent nice tops on pours, but after burning the tops are not quite as pretty (for the most part). In addition, the meltpool line usually has some amount of frosting on every tester. I really do not mind the frosting after burning that much. As long as the initial candle has no frosting or wetspots and nice tops (some heatgunning required on most), I consider it good. Just my opinion.Cheers,Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bah67 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 We use 415 and get great tops, sometimes we do hit them for a couple seconds wit a heat gun, but they are as smooth as any other candle. Even after burning they can have a rough texture, but its due to the FOs used. We have found that the spicy ones will tend to have rougher tops, but not always...while others are smooth as glass.And we have never had customers complain or have never heard any commits about the tops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinas Candles Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 We use 415 and get great tops, sometimes we do hit them for a couple seconds wit a heat gun, but they are as smooth as any other candle. Even after burning they can have a rough texture, but its due to the FOs used. We have found that the spicy ones will tend to have rougher tops, but not always...while others are smooth as glass.And we have never had customers complain or have never heard any commits about the tops.I also use 415 and pour at around 90 degrees and have found my tops grainy like sand. Its the closest I can come to smooth. I cant imagine hitting every single candle with a heat gun. I have poured numerous different temps and cannot get "smooth". What temp are you pouring at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bah67 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I also use 415 and pour at around 90 degrees and have found my tops grainy like sand. Its the closest I can come to smooth. I cant imagine hitting every single candle with a heat gun. I have poured numerous different temps and cannot get "smooth". What temp are you pouring at?You might try a little cooler, it really depends on your location, jar type, FO, time of the year etc. We use a frosted tumbler and a jelly jar and we mostly use the heat gun to hit the area around the wick to get rid of the "nipple".In the winter we pour the wax a little warmer and in the summer a little cooler, same with our containers- we heat them less in the winter and more in the summer. But that is what works for us.Aldo make sure you consistent with your stirring, especially when the 415 is starting to turn cloudy, We stir a lot when this happens until we pour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharon in KY Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 That was quoted from a user in a different thread.. I'm trying to get to the bottom of this uncertainty here. HAHAHAAH.. EVERYBODY HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION!!I was about ready to punch you.... If that person knows how, then Please tell me. Without switching to NatureWax C3, that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinas Candles Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 You might try a little cooler, it really depends on your location, jar type, FO, time of the year etc. We use a frosted tumbler and a jelly jar and we mostly use the heat gun to hit the area around the wick to get rid of the "nipple".In the winter we pour the wax a little warmer and in the summer a little cooler, same with our containers- we heat them less in the winter and more in the summer. But that is what works for us.Aldo make sure you consistent with your stirring, especially when the 415 is starting to turn cloudy, We stir a lot when this happens until we pour.I am going to try cooler next time I pour and I really never heat my glass because I didnt have problems with adhesion or wet spots so I figured I didnt need to but I am in the beginning stages of this so I am willing to keep trying new things and I dont mind having lots of great smelling candles either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Would any of you guys be willing to attach a picture of what your rough tops look like? I will post a picture of mine and we can compare... 415 has smooth tops really???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 I was about ready to punch you.... If that person knows how, then Please tell me. Without switching to NatureWax C3, that is.Yea the person didn't really elaborate on how to smooth the tops... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 correction.. on what to do to not have the moon crater effect on post burns rather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Yea the person didn't really elaborate on how to smooth the tops...What temperature are you heating the 464? when do you add the FO and what temperature are you pouring? heated jars or not?I had a major issue with rough tops in the 464 for a very long time- always had to use a heat gun and yes after each burn they would have some "crater" look to them but I finally figured out my temps for my environment to have perfect tops with the exception of a couple oilsI am curious as to what temp your heating to- because that was all my problem- for me I was heating to hot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 My tops after i pour are always smooth as a babies behind. However the post burn "moon cratering" is what im trying to get to the bottom of. I melt the 464 to 185 degrees and then I add my FO... i let it cool and pour at 135. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Any input on that moonshine or anybody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Any input on that moonshine or anybody?My tops after i pour are always smooth as a babies behind. However the post burn "moon cratering" is what im trying to get to the bottom of. I melt the 464 to 185 degrees and then I add my FO... i let it cool and pour at 135.So after your first pour your candles the tops are smooth- its after you burn them they have the "moon Crater" look?I thought you had rough tops at first pour.... I also have this look after burning and I really havent thought about trying to eliminate it- for me I dont want to mess with blends or adding anything to my wax to stop this from happening (IF it is possible)- I have settled for the cottage cheese look after burn like the other poster replied to you- I think that is all a matter of personal preference as to whether or not you can deal with it- if its not affecting the burn or HT why bother is my outlook:cheesy2:I have read before that it IS the nature of soy wax- even though 464 is a blended soy wax with additives already to reduce frosting - so my my thoughts are unless its really bugging you and you want to play with different additives or whatever is needed to eliminate the look- let it beMy candles do not look awful after burning there is just some cratering in the tops and some more so than others which is probably due to FO and wick combinations-dont really know but I do know some wicks I have used in the past (eco) make them look really bad after burns.I have only been candle making for 1 year but have tried alot of different soy waxes and so far I do like the 464 the best overall, maybe someone else will step in and offer input as to what you could do to make them smooth all the way down to last burn...I have purchased soy candles at our local farmers market and the same thing with theirs- they crater after burn but it doesnt effect anything elsehope that helps some in deciding whether you want to go there or not:cheesy2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid Lake Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Initially we chose 464 because it touted the ability to accept more fragrance and it was cheaper than most other soy waxes. We didn't like the really curdled tops in our finished product. Sometimes heat gun would help but not enough. AND there was the expansion issue which drowned in the tea lights and would destroy our little plastic tart cups.We also tried C3 which for us produced a nice finish but burning was cratered and pitted, even seemed to be a little "foamy" - not what we were looking for. It is quite acceptable for our tea lights and we use it now in tea lights.We found our best results came from Ecosoya Advanced. Nice appearance, predictable performance and very good throw. It does still relate to technique and, as has been mentioned before, your experience may not be the same as mine; offered only in the spirit of assistance to a fellow chandler.:smiley2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Quote: Originally Posted by bramoncada That was quoted from a user in a different thread.. I'm trying to get to the bottom of this uncertainty here. HAHAHAAH.. EVERYBODY HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION!!I was about ready to punch you.... If that person knows how, then Please tell me. Without switching to NatureWax C3, that is.Damned if you do and damned if you don't... Everyone wants a quick, concise answer but there really is none! Few people are willing to put in the time, study, effort and testing needed to discover what works best for them. Many folks give up; others "embrace the nature of soy" and let it go right there. So long as it burns and smells good, that's acceptable to some folks. It all depends on how much you really care about what you're doing and how hard you are willing to work to make your candles the way you want them to be.Making high quality soy candles is way more than simply melting and pouring: there is technique, experience and understanding involved. Some people "get it" without much effort; others have more difficulty. There are many, many tips about this in the threads. For newcomers, there's a LOT to discover if you truly want to make excellent products. For people who've been making soy candles for some period of time, there's still plenty to learn.It's important to know that soy wax (soybean oil) is polymorphic (if you don't know what that means, this white paper from NGI has a decent discussion about it - just remember it's slanted toward their products). Frosting, rough tops, cottage cheese appearance, space brains, graininess, cauliflower tops, etc. are all results of polymorphism. 464 contains USA (as does NatureWax C3, thus the comparison) to help stabilize the crystal formations (phases) in soy wax, but USA only helps so far... certain melting & pouring techniques are still needed to get the best results from the wax. And all the best efforts can go to hell in a handbasket when using certain FOs... We're not scientists making our stuff in labs and controlled production areas. We don't all use the same stuff, so comparison becomes more difficult. Equipment makes a difference, so if I share a tip that is based on the equipment I use, the mileage may vary for someone who uses something different. The size of the batch makes a difference. When one adds what at what temperature makes a difference. The specific ingredients used, especially FOs, make a difference. I've often recommended that people first make candles with no additives of any kind - dyes, FOs, etc. - to learn how that wax reacts to different techniques and temperatures, both environmental and during production. It's easier to troubleshoot and correct problems when you have a firm understanding of how the wax reacts by itself.There's no "magic formula" - just honest, hard work, careful observation and patience to discover what truly works best for YOU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rae Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Amen, Stella! Very well put! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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