OK, Here I Go!!

[bah67]

After studying these boards (using the search ALOT!) and researching everything I can find about soy, I am to the point where I am ready to start pouring my first candles at the end of next week or so!

I ordered some FO's from CS late last night, since they have free shipping (Sage & Pomegranate, Honeysuckle Jasmine, Cool Citris Basil, Vanilla Hazelnut and Fig Tree-seemed to have good reviews for the 415 and 464, but I know i have to test, test, test). I am ordering a scale today, and will pick up a Presto Pot next week.

I do have a couple questions concerning the waxes I have choosen to test. Since I can pick up wax at the Candlemakers Store (about an hour away), I have decided to test the GB415, 444 and 464.

I know that the 415 is 100% soy wax with no additives. My question is what is the main difference between the 444 and 464 (I know they both have additives)? I know they have different melt points and the 444 can hold more FO but is that the only difference? Also, I am concerned after reading that some people have trouble with some of the waxes becoming pitted, bumpy and/or rough after burning, is this just natural with this wax (I think I read this about the 444 and 464). I really would like a smooth top before and after burning.

I am going to buy some coconut oil to experiment with also, but my FIRST tests will be without adding anything additional to the wax in order to see how it does, except the FO (which I will start out with 1 oz. pp). Also should I go ahead and order some UV Inhibitor? Does the UV Inhibitor have any bearing on the burn? I do not plan on adding any dyes to my candles. I like a nautral or white candle.

I am going to use 8 oz tumblers, both clear(2.5" opening) and frosted (2 5/8" opening) to see which I like best. (Since I can get them also at the Candlemakers Store-although I wish they had a 3 or 4 oz votive in the same style-I may to drive to Lancaster, Ohio and check out Yes Supplies one of these days, or see what the shipping would be compared to driving).

After reading about wicks I am going to get a dozen of each CD wicks (sizes 8-20), and also I and getting a dozen each of HTP 62, 73, 83, 93, 104 and 105. Does anyone else have a suggestion to any other wicks I should pick up, or order? Or should I test these and then decide whether to order different ones? I want a variety in order to have options to find that "perfect" wick and wax combo.

Wow, I didn't mean to ramble on, and on. But is there anything I am missing? Or additional advise. This forum has been such a great find, I am glad to find a place with people that have so much knowledge!

[topofmurrayhill]

You aren't missing much.

The wicks you got are the perfect ones to start with. I think that they are actually all you need for those waxes.

You should get the UV inhibitor to help keep the wax from yellowing. A small amount won't significantly impact the burn.

With soy containers I'd lean towards 7% FO as a starting point for testing, although I'd also suggest keeping an open mind to decreasing it with an exceptionally strong-throwing fragrance.

GB 464 and GB 444 have a few percent of monoglyceride additive in them, but otherwise they're basically GB 402 (MP 115-120) and GB 415 (MP 120-125), respectively. What's different besides the melt point is that they're different materials and will burn and set up differently. The details of that span major threads on the board that you can look up.

To begin, you should probably just pour them and see what happens. I know it's winter, but if you can avoid doing it in a cold environment and prevent the candles from getting a chill in the first few days, that would be good. The basic wax info and pouring temps are here:

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45700

As far as the smooth tops go, particularly after burning, you won't get it with those waxes (or most others) right out of the box. Or, I should say, the ones with the additive might set up smooth after burning but it will be hit or miss.

I guess the one other thing you could consider is picking up some USA, since it's generally the most popular and useful soy additive after paraffin. It's not essential at this point, but could come in handy in the future if you decide to embark on the smooth tops quest. You could use it with the plain 415 or even modify the others.

Have fun.

Edited January 29, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[bah67]

Top thanks, I was wondering if I needed to get some USA also. So I order some also and will see how the first ones come out before adding any USA or CO.

I agree and plan to pour and see what happens first. Hopefully me space will be warm enough, I have a client that has building and the lower level is empty and has a few rooms. So they told me I could use one of them so I choose the kitchen which has cabinets and a sink (need to get it cleaned up first). There is heating but not sure of the constant temp, so I may need to take in a heater to warm it up some. I will take a themometer with me and check out the temp. Once I get everything set up this coming week then I will be ready.

I am glad that those wicks should/will work in the waxes. That is a relief. And hopefully I will like the tops or use a heat gun to smooth them out. But I guess I need to pour them first!

And thanks for the pointer about starting with 7% FO. I have the calculation in my notes. And I do plan on adding or substracting to get a good cold and hot throw.

Thanks!

[topofmurrayhill]

And thanks for the pointer about starting with 7% FO. I have the calculation in my notes. And I do plan on adding or substracting to get a good cold and hot throw.

I almost forgot--I was going to tell you that's 1.2 oz for a pound of wax.

[bah67]

Thanks!

One question is when you measure your FO (by weight on a scale), do you use the pipettes to help with the measuring? This might seem like a dumb question but thought I would ask.

Edited January 29, 2010 by bah67

[LuminousBoutique]

wow you are prepared! Good luck and have fun!!

[8-GRAN-ONES]

you will have fun...it is wonderful fun..happy candleing...

Top...I do want to say...i have found with 415..if i let it burn, until

the top is totally melted...(which shoud be done, to keep from getting a tunnel down the middle of the candle)

i have good luck with the top staying smooth, when it hardens back up..

now if i only let it burn for a short time..and it does not totally melt across the top...

i will usually get that terrible dreaded mushrooms...lol..

and then there are some fo's that i think attribute to mushrooming more too..

[topofmurrayhill]

One question is when you measure your FO (by weight on a scale), do you use the pipettes to help with the measuring? This might seem like a dumb question but thought I would ask.

I think dropper caps for your FO bottles is the way to go. Candlechem is a good source.

Edited January 29, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[pmurphyfan]

Quick question, does the USA help with wet spots/frosting?

[bah67]

I think dropper caps for your FO bottles is the way to go. Candlechem is a good source.

Thanks for the link Top, I will check it out.

And Luminous thanks, I hope I am prepared!

8 Gran One thanks, It has been so far studying and learning all this. So hopefully in a week or so I will have poured my first soy candle.

I bought a Presto Pot tonight at Kmart, so that is one more thing checked of my list!

[bah67]

Well I ordered my supplies tonight!! And will pick them up Thursday! I did get a few additional things, even after I told myself I am only ordering what is on my list...decided to to get a case of the frosted tumblers and 24 of the clear tumblers. Thought I should have extras, just in case I start pouring different mixtures and cannot stop! And I ordered an extra dozen of each of the wicks, and some jelly jars for the heck of it. scale should be here in the next day or two, and my FO's will arrive tomorrow!!

Another question, where should be a good starting point for the wick in the tumblers? I am thinking after reading, that maybe starting with a CD12 and HTP83. Not really sure about the size to start with the HTP though.

[realmarcha]

What diameter is the tumbler? How much fragrance are you starting with?

[bah67]

What diameter is the tumbler? How much fragrance are you starting with?

Here is the specs for the tumblers: I am going to use 8 oz tumblers, both clear(2.5" opening, 3-5/8" tall) and frosted (2 5/8" opening, 3.5" tall) to see which I like best. I also got some jelly jars that have a 2 3/8" opening and 3 7/8" tall.

Tops suggested starting with 1.2 oz of FO. So I will probably start with 1-1.2 oz of FO.

Edited February 3, 2010 by bah67

[Stella1952]

Try CD 10 & 12. I don't use your wax, so perhaps you might need to use more FO, but the other waxes I use (container & pillar palm, Ecosoya PB, NAtureWax C3) all have a great throw at 1 oz. pp. HTH

[bah67]

Try CD 10 & 12. I don't use your wax, so perhaps you might need to use more FO, but the other waxes I use (container & pillar palm, Ecosoya PB, NAtureWax C3) all have a great throw at 1 oz. pp. HTH

Thanks Stella! I did wick the 464 and 415 with CD 8 and 10. But the 444 I wicked with the CD 10 and 12. I didn't see your reply until after I started, but I do have the whole weekend to play around with it.

I put them on mesh cookie racks with a box over them. I did notice before leaving that the 464 had sink holes around the wicks. But the 415 seemed to be setting up really well. I know I shouldn't have peeked but I guess I got excited!

[Stella1952]

I know I shouldn't have peeked but I guess I got excited!

I ALWAYS peek. I can't help myself!

Sounds like you will have a FUN weekend!! It's gonna smell good at your house, yeah!!

I gotta figure out how to pour me a Saints Candle with a nice fleur de lis on it... or maybe a hurricane...

[bah67]

I ALWAYS peek. I can't help myself!

Sounds like you will have a FUN weekend!! It's gonna smell good at your house, yeah!!

I gotta figure out how to pour me a Saints Candle with a nice fleur de lis on it... or maybe a hurricane...

Good to know! I could not help myself either!

[bah67]

The candles turned out well for my first time. Here is what is happening so far (I made two 8oz tumblers each of 415, 444 and 464):

415-CD8 and CD 10, FO at 1oz Vanilla Hazelnut

444-CD10 and CD12, FO at 1.2oz Pomegrante Sage

464 CD8 and CD 10, FO at 1.2oz Pomegrante Sage

They all have really good CT. O love the vanilla hazelnut! (Although the pomegrante sage is way too florally for me-So I am searching for a different one that is more tangy and citrisy-simular to Henri Bendel).

The 415 looked really good a little bit of an uneven top. The 444 had a weird uneven top and a small sink holeamd the 464 had sink holes by the wicks. I know they cooled to fast. I did use skewers in the sink holes and heat gunned the tops of all 6 candles to smooth them out and to fill in the sink holes. Here are a couple pics after I smoothed the tops out (415 on left, 444 middle, and 464 on right):

I was actually suprised that I like the 415 so far, I really thought I would like the 464 the most, but I may be leaning at this point towards the 415. I do want to experiment more by adding some USA. But will see how the others burn also.

I just finished test burning the 415 this morning. The diameter is approx. 2.5" wide so I burned them for 2.5 hours. Had good HT, but I think I will use the 1.2oz next time (It seemed sooo strong OOB). I thought I trimmed the wicks to 1/4" but I misread my measuring tape so they were a little larger than I would have liked. It did mushroom, but I will see how ithey do on the second burn (will make sure I trim the wick to the correct size this time!) Here are some picks of the test (CD 8, CD10, CD 8 and CD10):

I did not get a FMP, I know it can take2-3 burns to get the one, but how do they look so far?

I am now testing the 444 with the CD10 and CD12 so I can see how the CD 12's will do. So far they are giving a great HT. Then its onto the 464!

[Stella1952]

I just finished test burning the 415 this morning. The diameter is approx. 2.5" wide so I burned them for 2.5 hours. Had good HT, but I think I will use the 1.2oz next time (It seemed sooo strong OOB).

Remember that with soy, allowing the FO to cure in the wax is very important with many fragrances. I wait several days before testing for this reason (not just the minimum 48 hours). Some more subtle scents don't get going until about a week later. Some folks don't like to wait that long, but I have a lot of patience. I would rather wait than add more FO - both because of money and adding extra stuff to soy that contributes to frosting. I find it hard to evaluate scent throw for several days after pouring... I have to get the fragrance outta my house and outta my nose (the dreaded candle nose!) before I can fairly evaluate what I am smelling... This article, which everyone should read and reread, discusses evaluating scent throw...

http://www.candletech.com/general-information/comparing-scent-throw/

It's impossible to accurately evaluate scent throw with more than one candle burning at a time.

The initial tests look good - with what I'm seeing of the 8s & 10s, I think the 12s will be overwicked... Predictably, your MPs are a little off center... while still warm after burning, push at the base of the wick in the direction away from the curl to equalize the HEAT of the wick. This is what is meant by keeping the wick (MP) centered and is normal maintenance, like wick trimming. You also may note that the air currents in your room make the candle burn a little hotter on one side than the other. Turning the container helps to equalize this.

[bah67]

Thanks for all the advise Stella. I wanted to let them cure longer, but since I am snowed in...I decided to start testing. I will be experimenting more this week and wil let them cure longer since I will be busy with non-candling tis coming week.

I did put them in different areas of the house, it does make sense to only test one at a time. I guess I was getting a little antsy. But I also wanted to compare the wicks as they burned a t the same time, to see if I could actually see the difference as they burn.

I just finished testing the 444's with the Pomegrante Sage (CD10 and CD12), I think the CD10 had a better HT. To me they both looked like they burned about the same, I could not really see much of a difference. (Actually the FO is not bad when burned. Here are a couple pics of them side by side(CD10 is on the left, CD12 on the right):

I am going to test the 415 for the 2nd time. The wicks ARE trimmed correctly this time. I will test the CD 10 first, the CD8 was getting a little small towards the end of the first test burn, but I will test it again later tonight-since there is no place to go, except out to shovel!!!.

Edited February 6, 2010 by bah67

[kandlenutz]

Hi! your candles look great! testing is a pain, but its just part of it, Im very new also, and still test various things. anyway, in my experience w/ the 444 and 464 they both burn the same pretty much and both have excellent ct and ht, I liked the 444 a little better b/c it releases from my tart molds easier, so I have decided to go w/that wax. I now get it from candlemakers store as well. I had read a question about measuring out fo, I dont use the pipettes, I just use the plastic containers that baby food comes in, b/c they bend enough that if i over pour, then they are flexible enough that i can pour the excess back in the bottle w/out wasting oil and leaking down the sides, etc. well, good luck w/ all your testing.

[topofmurrayhill]

Looks like you're off to a good start testing.

I'm curious what temps you poured the waxes at. The most reliable practice for a good top with 415 is to pour it cool and slushy. You have the option of doing that with the other waxes too, even though the pouring temps that GB listed are higher. The ones that are preblended with USA can work with the hotter pour temp, but the results depend a lot on the container and the conditions under which they were poured. Sometimes the cool pour gives you a little more control.

One rule that I like to practice is to always use the simplest approach first and only make it more complicated when necessary. For instance, you could conclude from what you read that covering the candles with a box is going to give you better results by slowing down the cooling. However, with all the different soy waxes out there, it's not as predictable as you might think. It could work perfectly for someone else but cause a rough top for you because it allows time for the bigger wax crystals to grow.

[bah67]

Hi! your candles look great! testing is a pain, but its just part of it, Im very new also, and still test various things. anyway, in my experience w/ the 444 and 464 they both burn the same pretty much and both have excellent ct and ht, I liked the 444 a little better b/c it releases from my tart molds easier, so I have decided to go w/that wax. I now get it from candlemakers store as well. I had read a question about measuring out fo, I dont use the pipettes, I just use the plastic containers that baby food comes in, b/c they bend enough that if i over pour, then they are flexible enough that i can pour the excess back in the bottle w/out wasting oil and leaking down the sides, etc. well, good luck w/ all your testing.

Thanks Kandlenutz, its been fun so far. I think I am going to get some caps this week for the FOs.

Looks like you're off to a good start testing.

I'm curious what temps you poured the waxes at. The most reliable practice for a good top with 415 is to pour it cool and slushy. You have the option of doing that with the other waxes too, even though the pouring temps that GB listed are higher. The ones that are preblended with USA can work with the hotter pour temp, but the results depend a lot on the container and the conditions under which they were poured. Sometimes the cool pour gives you a little more control.

One rule that I like to practice is to always use the simplest approach first and only make it more complicated when necessary. For instance, you could conclude from what you read that covering the candles with a box is going to give you better results by slowing down the cooling. However, with all the different soy waxes out there, it's not as predictable as you might think. It could work perfectly for someone else but cause a rough top for you because it allows time for the bigger wax crystals to grow.

Here is what I did:

415

I heated the 415 to 180-185*, poured into my pouring pot that already had the FOs measured, I stirred for 3 minutes and let it cool and stirred it ocassionally until it reached about 100*, when it became cloudy. I did heat my jars with my heat gun and the adhesion was very good, a few wet spots but they were minimal and very small. (Frosted tumblers).

444

Heated to 178* poured in pouring pot with FOs and stirred for 3 minutes and stirred occasionally until about 130* and poured into warmed clear tumblers.

464

Heated to 180*, added to pouring pot with Fos and poured at around 158-160*. Did not warm the jars, I planned on warming them but forgot. But I did get sink holes, so I am wondering if I should try and pour cooler to see hw that goes and to slow down the cooling from such a hot pour.

I melted 1 pound of each wax to test, one thing I did notice while pouring the other day is that I seemed to get more volume with the 444 and 464, and with the 415 I had a little less wax left over. It this because when you pour at a lower temp and it becomes cloudy and is cooler that the wax sticks to the sides of the pitcher more? I did hit it with the heat gun towards the end. (I think I answered my own question. LOL)

Also the temp in my little work room was about 66-68*, and I cannot control the temp too much because of radiant (boiler) heating, so I am going to use a ceramic heater to help warm the area up so they will not cool as quickly.

Edited February 6, 2010 by bah67

[topofmurrayhill]

Yes, you get a little less yield with the cool pour because of the wax that sticks to the pouring pot. There shouldn't be much difference in actual volume.

It can be helpful to warm the glass slightly when pouring cool, but it's different from other scenarios. For the slushy pour you're only looking to take the chill off it, like maybe 90 degrees. Be careful not to overdo it.

[bah67]

Thanks Tops, thats what I thought but wanted to ask anyway. I didn't heat the containers up too much they were just warm to the touch.

I am on my 2nd burn of the 415, stil not FMP and the flame is getting low (testing the CD10). It has been 3 hours now, I may let it burn for a little while longer to see. There is a large mushoom right now. And there is not much HT on this burn. I think I may want to test one with a CD12.