Wick pin problems

[Miadrianel Candles]

OK I was going to make a candle today and for some reason my wick pins let all the wax come out...I had actually finished cleaning them. What gives?? Everything is like the first day I got them pins and molds.

Dan

[Dustpuuppy]

Did you use putty over the wick hole ?

[Miadrianel Candles]

Nope I didn't. Are you supposed to use it?

Because I didn't used to put anything there and it wouldn't leak if that's just the problem well I can just solve it...Man now I feel really stupid

Dan

[Miadrianel Candles]

Well I'm seeing various explanations. Wick pin goes inside the mold or outside?? I'm using 3"X9" seamless alum. molds

[topofmurrayhill]

Yeah, you have to put putty around the pin so it seals the wick hole. You also need like three small dabs farther out to hold it steady. Then you have to adjust the whole thing so that the pin is exactly straight, or use a gadget at the top of the mold to center it.

It's probably easier to just wick the mold. The end result is also nicer than a wick stuck through a hole in the candle, which can just be yanked out.

[Scented]

Thread it through the outside with putty. I have no problems taking the putty, rolling it out a little to look like a fat string, wrap it around the pin, thread it through the mold, push into place. I use a doohicky to keep it centered as I move the mold all over the place. Personally I don't see the need for so much putty. More of a PITA to use more than just enough to plug the hole.

Likely all the threading through the hole wore it down enough to spring a leak.

[topofmurrayhill]

True, you don't need the extra putty if you have the centering gadget on top.

[Dustpuuppy]

I always put a huge gob between the mold and the baes of the pin. Then used a ruler to center it and the putty held it there.

When I did the repour, I'd leave a little bit of room. Once the repour was cooled I removed the wick pin, then insert the wick with a tab on it, then pour just enough wax on top to cover the tab. Some of that would seep down the wick hole, sealing it from top to bottom.

[debratant]

I like the concave look...so I put the wick pin on the outside. Instead of the gooey putty..I've started using the glue dots...I push 2 glue dots over the pin...then push the pin up through the hole. Haven't had them leak yet and you can get a few uses out of those glue dots. That's just how I've rigged it. I hate that putty lol.

[topofmurrayhill]

Don't get me started again on wick tabs in pillars. Wick tabs are for containers, not for exposed candles that someone might burn to the bottom.

That's another bad thing about wick pins. It encourages people to use wick assemblies that not only make a less classy product, but a potentially dangerous one.

[debratant]

Yeah, it's classier looking to wick the mold...which most of the time I do. But for my own pillars for myself...I don't bother. Who cares what it looks like when I burn it...and I never burn it completely down. I actually have a wicked pillar cooling right now for a friend.

It's a good point to bring up though...but to each his own I guess.

[Circle]

Don't get me started again on wick tabs in pillars. Wick tabs are for containers, not for exposed candles that someone might burn to the bottom.

That's another bad thing about wick pins. It encourages people to use wick assemblies that not only make a less classy product, but a potentially dangerous one.

I agree with you Top, much nicer to have a proper wick, also less danger.

[Dustpuuppy]

Dangerous ? I fail to see any danger as the candle will simply extinguish it's self, when it reaches the top of the tab. Leaves a disk about a half inch thick. Never had a problem in any of my testing. Certainly safer than having a loose wick fall over into the melt pool with results that can't be predicted, IMO. I did have a problem with that, at one point.

Also, wick assemblies are too expensive and they never came stock in the lengths I wanted or wick size...etc. I just made my own.

As for what constitutes a "classy product", that's rather a mater of opinion, isn't it ?

Don't get me started again on wick tabs in pillars. Wick tabs are for containers, not for exposed candles that someone might burn to the bottom.

That's another bad thing about wick pins. It encourages people to use wick assemblies that not only make a less classy product, but a potentially dangerous one.

[topofmurrayhill]

Wicks that are molded into pillars just fall over and go out while there's still a good amount of wax at the bottom of the candle. Tabbed wicks can go on burning until nothing but the outer rim of the pillar is left. That is the purpose of a wick tab - to hold the wick up so it keeps burning when the wax at the bottom of the container is melted. They don't belong in pillars.

I recall that you bury your wicks tabs deeper in the candle. That certainly makes it less likely to cause a problem. Now all you need to do is leave it out entirely, since it serves no purpose.

As for upscale vs. downscale, just depends on how objective you want to be about it. A wick that's stuck through a hole in the candle obviously looks cheaper. The whole point of wick pins is to make a cheaper product. And no matter how those wicks are secured, as long as you can get a grip on them they pull out easily.

[Miadrianel Candles]

Cheaper product?

Well I for one use them because I hate using that putty all the time. I guess if the tab at the bottom is any danger you could put a shorter (1/4"?) wick and melt a bit of wax on the bottom and seal the wick in...

[Dustpuuppy]

Wicks that are molded into pillars just fall over and go out while there's still a good amount of wax at the bottom of the candle. Tabbed wicks can go on burning until nothing but the outer rim of the pillar is left.

Well...

The problem is that I've had 2 wicks fall over and NOT go out. I suddenly found myself front row at a Kiss concert, for all I could tell.

Now understand that I've never had a NORMAL problem in my life...

That's why I started with the tabs.

The ones I used had the half inch tall shank ( or there about).

I mainly started to bury them below the wax on the bottom, so they could still be leveled. Thus the tab is below the surface of the wax on the bottom. They can seldom be seen, even before the safety label is put on.

Even before using the tabs, I'd buried the wicks below the surface due to leveling and due to concerns that some fool would burn them on a bare table, without a holder under them, maybe catching the table on fire.

You're right that they're a bit cheaper, faster and easier to make with the wick pins. I don't have a problem making a few extra $$ on something when there's no real difference.

That said, I can certainly relate to being a bit of a purist and wanting to do things in a more traditional way. I like to do that with wood working... hand cut dovetails and such. But people are seldom willing to pay for it.

And I think I've taken this thread WAY off topic. Apologies to the OP.

[topofmurrayhill]

I wouldn't worry about the OT thing. The original question was answered and we might as well put some meat on the bones of this thread.

I'm really concerned about people reading this not getting the idea. I have seen countless tests (and other people confirm this) where a pillar made with a wick tab ends up with a flaming wick sitting directly on whatever surface held the pillar. Without a candle holder, the best case scenario is an indelible stain.

Burying the wick tab deeper, as you do, surely must makes this less likely, but for people using wick pins I think the most simple and straightforward advice is just not to use a tabbed wick. The main purpose of the tab is to keep the wick upright so it keeps burning. If the hole at the bottom allows wax through, it will burn until every drop of wax is sucked up.

Nothing in candles is foolproof, but I don't quite understand why you had difficulties. Normal pillars with the wick molded in have never really been a problem. If they burn near the bottom, the wick tips over and drowns. It certainly has worked in every case I've seen.

As for the upscale issue, I would agree that the traditional way appeals to me personally, but there's a very objective consideration too: Would a $22+ dollar 3x6 pillar from Pacifica or Illume or Archipelago ever have the wick stuck through a hole? Of course not - never in a million years. When a wick, which is an integral part of the candle, can be easily pulled out of a pillar, does that say quality? Of course not.

It's kind of surprising, when you think about it, that a small candlemaker with a product for sale would make a pillar that way. You would think the marketing angle is all about handcrafting, but the technique says factory or cheap labor. And it doesn't even save time. You still have to seal the wick hole. You still have to center the other end.

[AnjieBurdett]

Don't get me started again on wick tabs in pillars. Wick tabs are for containers, not for exposed candles that someone might burn to the bottom.

That's another bad thing about wick pins. It encourages people to use wick assemblies that not only make a less classy product, but a potentially dangerous one.

HAHA! I started reading this thread and thought 'oh nooooo, wait for TOP!'

Anjie,x.

[Dustpuuppy]

First off. Note that I'm not trying to be argumentative, here. You always seem to know what you're talking about. At the same time my experience seems different from what you're saying. I wanted to find out why the discrepancy. I think I did. Second comment, below.

I'm really concerned about people reading this not getting the idea. I have seen countless tests (and other people confirm this) where a pillar made with a wick tab ends up with a flaming wick sitting directly on whatever surface held the pillar. Without a candle holder, the best case scenario is an indelible stain.

I totally agree with that but some people just don't know any better.

...for people using wick pins I think the most simple and straightforward advice is just not to use a tabbed wick.If the hole at the bottom allows wax through, it will burn until every drop of wax is sucked up.

OK. I just had an epiphany on that one. I couldn't figure out quite what you were talking about. Mine always quit burning pretty much when they hit the top of the tab (at the top of the neck/shank/barrel/whatever you call it). They just went out.

Thinking back, I always ran the wick about halfway down the barrel and crimped the hell out of it. Again I was using the type that had about a 1/4 or 1/2 inch height. Kinda like the center ones, here. Maybe a little taller. Once the wick burned down to the tab, it went out.

Due to your comment, here, I'm thinking that I just stumbled into that out of pure dumb luck?

As I recall, I didn't want the wick sticking out the bottom of the tab because it might have gotten in the way when leveling the candle.

Nothing in candles is foolproof, but I don't quite understand why you had difficulties. Normal pillars with the wick molded in have never really been a problem. If they burn near the bottom, the wick tips over and drowns. It certainly has worked in every case I've seen.

I never understood it either. I know that it's SUPPOSED to work just as you say. What appeared to happen was that the wick fell over and kind of floated on top of the melt pool for a split second. This gave the effect of having a wick that was about an inch wide, or some such. I got one big POOF and there wasn't much left to analyze. First time I was just looking for the lid to the stock pot, rather than paying attention to the problem. ( At one stage of testing I always burned them inside a large stock pot, in the floor, up on a concrete block. If anything went wrong I could just put the lid on and smother it.)

The second time I caught a glimpse of what looked like the wick laying sideways on top of the melt pool. The whole flare up only lasted a second and it's kinda hard to be sure what I was seeing as I was looking through the flame. And the flame got really bright, then went out. No time for the eyes to adjust.

I never did figure it out and it's always kinda bugged the crap out of me, so if you have any ideas ?

It's kind of surprising, when you think about it, that a small candlemaker with a product for sale would make a pillar that way. You would think the marketing angle is all about handcrafting, but the technique says factory or cheap labor. And it doesn't even save time. You still have to seal the wick hole. You still have to center the other end.

My original reason for using the wick pins, themselves, was that almost all my candles had chunks in them. Using the traditional method, I always wound up with curvatures in the wick, when I put the chunks in. I was pulling the wicks so tight that I was breaking some of them. I'd still get curves in them. The chunks are what gave me the swirl effect that was what I was selling the most of. Like these.

As for selling points, 'hand crafted' wasn't my main thing. My main selling point was that mine were different. Mine pretty much burned better and smelled better than anything you could find at the local mall, plus they were unique in appearance. A lot of my sales were people that wanted a certain scent but in a different color. They'd want a rose scent but they wanted it in blue, so it would match their drapes. Things of that nature. Ever tried finding a vanilla candle in purple?

In short, I found a niche. You've got a million people out there screaming 'hand crafted'. A small percentage of those were probably at least as high in quality as what I had. Some were probably better. Most I've seen were worse crap than Wally World has.

I had something that was above average in quality and totally different in appearance.

I think our 'argument', on this point, is just an ideological difference.

[Scented]

Actually there are people here who have gone without using wick tabs and had the wick fall over and it keep burning, so Dust you aren't the only one. I believe CindyM has posted about this before and was met with argument by the same person bringing it up for argument. I know I'm not dreaming it ... it happens.

There are no fail proof methods period. It's what works for you.

[Dustpuuppy]

Actually there are people here who have gone without using wick tabs and had the wick fall over and it keep burning, so Dust you aren't the only one. I believe CindyM has posted about this before and was met with argument by the same person bringing it up for argument. I know I'm not dreaming it ... it happens.

There are no fail proof methods period. It's what works for you.

Top and I don't always agree on things but he generally has solid logic backing his position. If it were otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered with all the exposition/explanation above.

I generally work on the assumption that he has some bit of info that I don't.

In this case the error is in thinking that the wax can be sucked up through the hole in the bottom of the tab. It simply doesn't work that way. I had to think on that one a bit.

The crimp that holds the wick in the tab will shut off that flow of wax, just like bending a hose in half chokes off the water. Plus, once the wick burns down to the tab, it's not getting any air. The air and fuel have to mix at the point of combustion. When that point of combustion is lower than the top of the tab, no more air... ergo no more combustion. I had to think on that one a bit.

Bottom line is; this is little more than a religious argument. You can tell that when the debate degenerates to the level of statements about 'classy products' and the 'proper way'... etc.

At that point it becomes ideological rather than logical.

[Stella1952]

I like using wick pins for many reasons, some of which are simply personal preference, others for more solid purposes. Sometimes I use 'em on the inside of the mold; sometimes I use 'em on the outside.

I use wicktabs with my pillars. I do not feel comfortable with depending on the wick to fall over at some point. I bury them about 1/8" - 1/2" into the bottom, depending on the candle size.

I'd buried the wicks below the surface due to leveling and due to concerns that some fool would burn them on a bare table, without a holder under them, maybe catching the table on fire.

I don't think our responsibility as chandlers trying to make a safe product extends past performing due diligence in testing, giving careful instructions with each candle sold, attaching the required warnings and carrying product liability insurance. There will ALWAYS be those who ignore everything...

I recommend burning pillars in oversized hurricane glasses with sand or water in the bottom for safety (I have cats & long hair). I do not use nor sell candle plates because if something unplanned happens, no typical candle plate will contain a healthy melt pool blowout or, god forbid, fire. On the very infrequent occasions that I burn pillars outside of a hurricane, I use shallow bowls with water or sand underneath the candle. To me, that's just common sense safety stuff... Others might call it overkill.

The crimp that holds the wick in the tab will shut off that flow of wax, just like bending a hose in half chokes off the water.

For the wick to continue sucking wax, the wax has to be liquid. The crimp does NOT prevent this because it occurs because of capillary action in the fibers of the wick. I have photos of this phenom illustrating how the liquid continues to be sucked in. This is a big problem at the end of container candles (which is why having a sealant that does not even soften slightly during the final, hot, liquid stages of the burn is so important).

With the pillars I make (palm wax), the wax does not become liquid underneath the bottom of the wicktab before the top of the tab self-extinguishes, so no suckage occurs. I use the same method for my votives and they self-extinguish right on cue at the top of the wicktab.

This may be due more to a difference in the burn characteristics of palm wax rather than a general rule of thumb. Paraffin is different. Soy is different. Blends are different.

I don't look at an integral wick as the hallmark of "quality." Once the wick is lit, there is no discernible difference. I think that's a nitpicking point that means very little about actual quality. I look at the design of the candle, how it smells & how it burns. Just my opinion...

I am not attempting to compete with bigtime high-end candle companies nor am I trying to compete with mass production el cheapo companies. How one looks at candlemaking from an industry viewpoint may be very different from the way a homecrafter or average consumer looks at things. None of those viewpoints is ultimately *right* or *wrong* so long as the candle looks good, smells good and burns well.

There are no fail proof methods period. It's what works for you.

I think our 'argument', on this point, is just an ideological difference.

I agree with both statements. Edited November 27, 2009 by Stella1952

[Dustpuuppy]

I don't think our responsibility as chandlers trying to make a safe product extends past performing due diligence in testing, giving careful instructions with each candle sold, attaching the required warnings and carrying product liability insurance. There will ALWAYS be those who ignore everything...

I agree with that, to an extent. I do think we should keep in mind how nuts some folk are. That's why we torture test them. Because some folks will leave them burning for 12 hours, without trimming the wick. For this reason I used to underwick mine just a tad. Never had a blowout unless there was a pretty good breeze. ( Technically, I guess you could say I adjusted the formula, rather than the wick but the effect was the same.)

Things of that nature.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can't make anything idiot proof. You can take some simple steps to help make them more idiot resistant.

[Stella1952]

Because some folks will leave them burning for 12 hours, without trimming the wick

Guilty. :embarasse I SAY I torture test for customers, but actually, it's first and foremost for the moron who lives inside my clothes. :lipsrseal

Never had a blowout unless there was a pretty good breeze.

OR unless burning a candle on top of the television and the heater comes on... which cured me of using candle plates AND testing above the TV, at the same time. :rolleyes2 Although the stuff on the screen scraped off with a razor blade, I think there's still red wax in the carpet below the entertainment center... :embarasse

[topofmurrayhill]

In this case the error is in thinking that the wax can be sucked up through the hole in the bottom of the tab. It simply doesn't work that way. I had to think on that one a bit.

Not only does it work that way, but I can reproduce it over and over again for your pleasure.

There are potential solutions. You can find a reliable way of sealing the hole at the bottom of the tab. A long-necked tab would also be a must, since it makes it more likely that the pillar will extinguish before the wax melts through to the bottom.

But you have to think about what is actually good advice to have on the forum. People don't do those things. Almost nobody makes their own wick assemblies. The ones from most suppliers have short necks. At least 99% of people who discover pillar pins are simply going to buy assemblies made for containers and stick them through the hole. It seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Without the tab, you just cut the wick before your second pour so it's short of the bottom. There's no way it's going to stand on tiptoes until the pillar melts through. If by any chance it teeters over and doesn't go out right away, who cares? Unless you're wicking the pillar inordinately high, it's not capable of flaring up to set a lampshade on fire or something.