Caves?

[RMSSHELTON]

Ok this is a new one for me.

I am using CB135

Well for some reason on the last two pours I am getting what looks to be a great candle.

It has no wet spots, flat smooth creamy tops. All looks good till I burn it.

Then all of the sudden....

POP...

It seems as though a cavern developed in my wax.

Like a shell.

Like the middle caved in, but the top cooled fast enough to keep its form.

I pour at about 100 - 110

I use CB135

1oz PP of Beeswax. ( actually 15oz of cb135 and 1oz Beeswax )

2oz FO

I have used this formula before, on all our other pours and No problems like this.

The only thing that changed was the FO's

But they where two completely different FO's

One was Vanilla Passion, The Other BlackBerry Sage.

The only thing the same is that I poured them on the same day.

My house is temp set. Usually at exactly 70 degrees, The humity is regulated to 55% all the time.

I am using the same wax, and same additives ( beeswax )

ANY IDEAS???

Has this ever happened to you?

Also would it be okay to place the candle in a double boiler and remelt the wax and let it recool to see if it would not do the same thing?

Or would the WICK be ruined?

[NattyCat]

I get cavities with Cb-135 also.

I have poured at so many different temperatures, in warmed glass, cool glass, etc etc and I still get them. It ruins the candle.

The only thing you can do if you know you get cavities is to do as I do and poke relief holes whilst the candle is setting up - and then do a repour.

You WILL get people responding to this thread telling you that you are pouring your candles wrong, and that CB-135 DOESN'T get cavities - but ignore them - seriously - it DOES happen and after extensive testing, I still cannot figure out why.

Nat

[RMSSHELTON]

I get cavities with Cb-135 also.

I have poured at so many different temperatures, in warmed glass, cool glass, etc etc and I still get them. It ruins the candle.

The only thing you can do if you know you get cavities is to do as I do and poke relief holes whilst the candle is setting up - and then do a repour.

You WILL get people responding to this thread telling you that you are pouring your candles wrong, and that CB-135 DOESN'T get cavities - but ignore them - seriously - it DOES happen and after extensive testing, I still cannot figure out why.

Nat

I think so to.

Looked over a few other candles that I had, I did find one other with the same problem.

I poured 6 tins at the same time.

Only one of the 6 had the cavity.

So I cant be pouring wrong.

Repouring is not a big deal.

I guess what I will do Is make a little extra wax pour about 80% and wait till it sets,

keep the left over wax hot and then After the top sets, Pop it and let it cave in and repour.

So much for a "true single pour wax" lol

I really think that the problem is that the top cools to quickly and the Structure of the Crytals forms a kind of dome.

And the warmer wax in the center structuires differently causing the colapse.

I will test it with clear wax and purposefully cool the top faster to see if I can regularly get the same result.

If I do then I will will find a way to keep the top warm while the rest cools.

[tootie04]

There are lots of true single pour waxes out there...I'd find one of them before I'd repour. But then again I HATE to repour and will NOT do it.

tootie

[Stella1952]

I really think that the problem is that the top cools to quickly and the Structure of the Crytals forms a kind of dome.

And the warmer wax in the center structuires differently causing the colapse.

I think you are on to the problem. Try cooling more slowly - on a cooling rack under a heavy cardboard box, styrofoam cooler or set in a prewarmed oven (>190°) turned off when the candles go in. If you watch the tops carefully, there will be a point when you can probe around the wick to mess up any caverns forming and release the air, but the wax will still be soft enough to "heal" itself and end up with a smooth top. Good luck! Let us know how things turn out for ya.

[R.S.]

I never had this problem when I was using straight CB135. And I just let me tumblers cool on the kitchen counter.

[RMSSHELTON]

Thank you for all your advice.

I thought about warming my house a little in the evening.

Perhaps to 74-76 degrees.

I like the idea of putting them in the oven.

I tried that once though and the tops came out horrible, but i heated the containers. I wonder if I just leave everything them in the oven, without heating the containers if it would be better.

[Babean28]

Thank you for all your advice.

I thought about warming my house a little in the evening.

Perhaps to 74-76 degrees.

I like the idea of putting them in the oven.

I tried that once though and the tops came out horrible, but i heated the containers. I wonder if I just leave everything them in the oven, without heating the containers if it would be better.

I like the idea of putting them in the oven too. Stella is right - I followed her advice on this when using C3, and it's amazing how different the results were. It worked best when the wick hadn't already been trimmed though.

[NattyCat]

I cooled mine in the oven and under boxes, and the tops came out like regurgitated cottage cheese.

[Scenicdriver]

You're using 2oz of fo for 15oz of wax? That's a lot! I'm surprised you get a hot throw.

As for the cavities, I've not had one with CB135. The only additive I use though is a stabilizer.

[Stella1952]

C3 and CB135 are different critters - what works for one might not work out for the other. If there is TOO much heat, too close to the top, you get Natty's cottage cheese look. Ya just have to find a happy medium. I don't think you need to change the temp of your house to suit - just try to achieve a little slower, more even cooling and I think it'll work out. Every one's experience is different and none are necessarily right nor wrong - we're all in different climates, and do things a little differently. Try not to pull out all your hair finding what works for YOU!! Try everyone's suggestions and don't be afraid to throw out the "rulebook" 'cause soy-based wax likes to write its own as it goes...

You'll get it!! :highfive:

[tootie04]

Wow....2 oz FO is ALOT!! I have never used that much FO. The most I have ever used is 1.5 oz.

tootie

[topofmurrayhill]

For most soy waxes, including CB-135, there's a consistency you can pour at so that it won't shrink at all -- hence no caves. It's not only a matter of temperature but I guess you could it "texture." It's a crystal state of the wax that's produced not only by the temperature but also the cooling rate and how you stir it. You have to experiment and get the feel of it, kind of like making chocolate. If you pour the wax in a totally clear liquid state, you don't really have enough control over the results. You might get it working for a while, then the season changes or whatever and you're screwed again.

[NattyCat]

the problem I find when pouring it in that crystal state top, is that you then get jump lines where the wax instantly cools against the glass. If you heat the glass so this doesn't happen - that affects the temperature of the wax that is closest to the glass - hence inconsistent cooling.

[TraciS]

I tried the boxes on the top to see if my candles looked any different but I don't think I could sustain that method and maintain any type of production. Spacing to accommodate boxes was murder and no way I could fit enough candles in an oven. I rarely have sink holes but I usually poke and touch up with heat gun.

[Scenicdriver]

Wow....2 oz FO is ALOT!! I have never used that much FO. The most I have ever used is 1.5 oz.

tootie

Tootie, I guess you and I are the only ones that noticed that.

RMShelton, I think that's too much fo. Generally 1.5oz pp is max. You mentioned that you are using 2oz for less than a pound. Try backing off the fo a bit; maybe go down to 1oz pp to start with. I think you'll see you will have better hot throw. HTH you out a little.

[RMSSHELTON]

Tootie, I guess you and I are the only ones that noticed that.

RMShelton, I think that's too much fo. Generally 1.5oz pp is max. You mentioned that you are using 2oz for less than a pound. Try backing off the fo a bit; maybe go down to 1oz pp to start with. I think you'll see you will have better hot throw. HTH you out a little.

Thanks again.

Well last night I tried at about 9% FO, instead of 12%

We will see how that goes.

This morning I noticed that the tops did look a little smoother. There seemed to be no holes or "caves".

I did notice though that there is a cracked ring around the candle. I still think they may be cooling to fast.

I poured last nite at exactly 100 degrees. ( well if the thermometer is right..lol )

Room at 72 degrees.

On stirring do you guys stir constantly.

Hard Fast, slow steady, both, continuously or in stages?

[tootie04]

I dont use your wax....but I dont stir constantly and when I do I try to stir so I dont get air into the wax....I guess slow and steady describes it.

Also, You will find with FO alot of times LESS is better. If you can get the same throw with 6% as 9% then why use more. I have started testing my new wax mix at 6% (taking the advice of some very seasoned candle makers on this board) You will find your candles will more than likley burn better with less FO.

tootie

[RMSSHELTON]

I dont use your wax....but I dont stir constantly and when I do I try to stir so I dont get air into the wax....I guess slow and steady describes it.

Also, You will find with FO alot of times LESS is better. If you can get the same throw with 6% as 9% then why use more. I have started testing my new wax mix at 6% (taking the advice of some very seasoned candle makers on this board) You will find your candles will more than likley burn better with less FO.

tootie

Thanks again.

Well I found that at 1oz PP of wax that my cents just wherent all that great.

So not really knowing how this all worked I moved to 2oz PP.

Well the cold throw was great. But You are right the Hot throw is still not what I wanted. It was however still better than 1ozPP for me anyway.

So I guess I need to find that medium. And each scent is a little different.

Very stressful./

So much money spent on testing LOL

Then even with all that...You still Have to test the wicks.

What fun.

And then some of the candles I first poured now seem to smell stronger. I guess from Curing.

Ohh what fun.

Anyhow, I guess that is why I bought so many supplies. I am about half way through the 50lbs of CB 135.

And am still not sold on the finished product yet.

So I am backing off the FO, and also I am trying to focus on making a great looking candle. Smooth tops few wet spots, great texture, even texture throught.

Then try and fine tune the FO for the scents then I guess focus on the wicks again.

Of course with every change I guess you have to start all over again.

[Judy, USMC]

And don't forget that not all FO's throw in all waxes equally well. Something that works in C3 may not in the 135. So if you can't get an oil to throw consider changing oils. Just because "Throws well in soy" is in the description does not mean it will throw in YOUR soy. And some cure in 2 days and others take 7 days or more!

Voice of experience here.

[RMSSHELTON]

And don't forget that not all FO's throw in all waxes equally well. Something that works in C3 may not in the 135. So if you can't get an oil to throw consider changing oils. Just because "Throws well in soy" is in the description does not mean it will throw in YOUR soy. And some cure in 2 days and others take 7 days or more!

Voice of experience here.

Thanks again. I appreciate all you guys' help