Info a supplier shared on preservatives.

[Marisa]

Reading Katherines question on shelf life I thought Id post what was told to me this week from a supplier who dosent offer preservatives becuase of a few resons ..

That was a great question katherine about how long our stuff last verses there's, as I have wondered the same thing. I do have a hand wash from 2005 from bbw that smells "OFF" when I opened it for the first time last night. On another note about preservatives and chemicals..I talked to Melody from Rainbow meadow and she said that as crafters that there is no way to know if we have our stuff properly preserved (meaning to much perserve or to little) unless its been fully tested by a lab. and even tho we add preservatives to stuff with water in it or something that dosent have water that we have NO way of knowing if we added the right amount of perserve becuase there is no way to estimate just how much water was introduced via wet hands/shower..etc..She actually talked to the man who is the"lab man" for Germall plus.. So So maybe theres last longer as they have all the access to proper chemicals .. Anyone have any thoughts or info, I want my stuff to last , but also want to keep my customers health in mind.When using a listed recipe with water I use the listed amount of preservative, how do we know that is correct? Even tho Ive been making B7B for a couple of years..this kinda made me second guess about water and how do we know how much is introduced and that we used the right amount?..Again katherine..great topic brought up a question I have wanted to ask/share!!

[RobinInOR]

The only way you are *really* going to know is to have your product challenge tested, and each batch APC'd to make sure it isn't contaminated.

Challenge testing is expensive, which is why everyone who is "small time" avoids it. But, you can approximate it with a series of APC tests. Make up a batch, send in a sample for APC. Use another amount for 2-3 months and really abuse it. Send that in for APC. At the same time, send in another unopened container that's been sitting around for 2-3 months. This will test the original batch, how the preservative holds up in regular shelf life, and abuse situations.

Your product can be contaminated and still look and smell fine.

One reason I don't do lotions yet.

[Katherine]

It is kind of scarey when you think about it all. Both of you have some great ideas & thoughts. Part of me WORRIES so much about it & then this other smaller part of me tries to console the worries by thinking: nothing bad has happened so far. No complaints, nothing funky......but that is so far. I haven't noticed posts from people freaking out because stuff was returned, or customer complaints. Do we assume that people who use our products know not to use them/save them forever? I guess we are assuming that the stuff is being used up in its entirety, pretty quickly. A 2, 4, 6 or 8 oz bottle of lotion, butter, gets used up pretty quickly I suppose. I actually ordered from other etailers who make homemade B&B & I HAVE gotten lotion that turned to cottage cheese after a few months, when the weather warmed up & that never happened with any "mall" products(as I like to call them!). It is confusing. I guess the bottom line is: testing, testing, testing!!!!!

Here is a thought: what would happen if we took a bottle of VS or BBW stuff & used RobinInOr's testing advice.............sent THEIR stuff out over the course of a couple of months, etc...............& see how THEIR stuff comes back? Would that give us peace of mind? OK, my brain is hurting from thinking so much.

Anybody else's thoughts, ideas, paranoia's:shocked2: , would be great!!!!

[mbrown]

I love this topic for a number of reasons.

1) I have gone back and forth trying to decide if I should make lotions or not because of the preservative issue

2) I really don't like making lotions and the more info I have on preservatives the more I really don't want to be bothered. It is just to much trouble to me. I make butters for myself and family and I do not preserve the butters. (I make sure they do not come in contact with water)

That is just my personal preference I would never sale without a preservative.

[sudsnwicks]

Do we assume that people who use our products know not to use them/save them forever? I guess we are assuming that the stuff is being used up in its entirety, pretty quickly. A 2, 4, 6 or 8 oz bottle of lotion, butter, gets used up pretty quickly I suppose.

We can't assume that. If I bought something for myself, it's likely because I need it and so would use it right away. But if I received something as a gift, and wasn't done with my existing supply of the same thing, then I might store it for a while.

[Katherine]

One more thought. Then I promise to stop thinking! Is there peace of mind when using premade bases from some of the biggies like, WSP, Millcreek, BC, etc.....And when they say a year, I'm assuming they mean discard the product within a year, not first make a new batch of lotion in month 11 & expect people to use it. I guess it all comes down to that word "assuming". There is no room for assuming. Do you all spend way too much time contradicting your own thoughts too ?Ok, done thinking.

[Crafty1_AJ]

Here's my 2 cents' worth. Yes, we must use preservatives and make sure everything is as sanitary as possible when making lotion. We must be very careful. If you plan to sell, yes -- get APC's, by all means.

BUT ... even when you're very careful, funky stuff happens, KWIM? Scales burp, heat and germs happen. Life is not risk free. Even the "big boys" have recalls occasionally due to bacterial contamination and such. I would be very cautious and careful about making lotions and such, but I also wouldn't let fear totally freeze me up. Life just is never going to be risk free and without fault & problems. If no one ever takes the plunge, where would that get us?

OK, climbing down off soapbox for now ...

[RobinInOR]

The using of bases is a tough one for me. There are tons and tons of people who use them on this board and others. I used to sell them as well. I've never heard of any problems. But....

I've chosen to be paranoid for the moment. I stopped selling them. My work area where I was scenting them just wasn't clean enough. What if I contaminated a jar when I scented it? What happens each time I use the base? Granted I bought pumps for the gallon jugs so there was little contact, I was still worried.

And I didn't want to spend the testing $$ on a product that I didn't make. I'm willing to spend the $ on testing my own product, but not one I purchased.

How well do you trust the supplier? Who broke down the product into gallon jugs? What kind of person did it and what was the environment like? Can you get testing reports from your supplier? Or can they supply the test reports they got from the manufacturer? Do they spot check their gallons for contamination?

There are some suppliers I might trust more than others. I'd looks at the type of b&b they do, how experienced they seem in the cosmetic industry, whether they actually know anything about their bases and how they're constructed.

So I'm one of the frozen ones Eventually, when I get a lotion recipe I like, I'll jump out of the freezer

[pamperme]

Not to scare you all even more but you CAN get bad lotion bases from suppliers as well.. I have..it got moldy before even 1/2 was gone of the gallon jug.. and they replaced it..but I had to also throw out all my stuff I made..it was stored in a cool dry place out of light and it just had a bad problem..don't know why..they did not elaborate on it. just replaced it.

But in saying that ..this is also why I still uses bases and not from scratch. They have more knowledge and testing abilites than I do. ..plus you never know what the customer is going to do with it..even if you put it on your warning lable..they could dig dirty wet hands from outside into a jar of salt scrub to clean up and guess what is now IN the jar.:lipsrseal

[Katherine]

plus you never know what the customer is going to do with it..even if you put it on your warning lable..they could dig dirty wet hands from outside into a jar of salt scrub to clean up and guess what is now IN the jar.:lipsrseal

That kind of sums it all up, doesn't it now!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I don't have to let my mind wander........I've got the vivid picture ! Ok, a few days off for some "down time" is officially over today.........too much time to think of the worst possible scenarios! But, all kidding aside, it IS ALOT to think about & I think it is great that we can all chime in & run our thoughts by each other on this.

Thanks for all the opinions.

[xsami3000x]

Ok just because it caught my attention while surfing the lush website and message boards.

They use preservatives in most things. But there are still little complaints here and there throughout the message boards that people have recieved moldy items in the mail through them.

So even the "big boys" who can afford and probably do testing can get a bug now and again.

I just still don't understand their body butters that you are instructed to smear yourself with while still wet, that don't have a preservative listed.

Sami

[pamperme]

I have a question about that..what about oils..if it is oils and there is no water..do you need a preservative at all..if you look in a thing of crisco, veggie oil etc.. no preserves..and yet no mold..and I have had the same darn thing of crisco for over 2 years..(to make food not b&b stuff..want to clarify that..lol)

[CareBear]

Long ago, I had a hypothetical discussion with a supplier (I forget which) recommended I put on the label that my product was "preservative free" and to make sure hands were clean or scoop out with spatula - puts the onus on the consumer I guess.

But I never pursued that.

[CareBear]

no preservative for mold, but you might want an antioxidant depending on the oils you use.

[Marisa]

There is some good comments on this.. thanks.. She mentioned a small amount of mix of Rosemary/ tea tree //lavender EO and one other I cant think of.. Was just as effective in protection and without the risk of cancers,etc from using them.. I think its was at .5-.7% Eo's for a gallon of product

[RobinInOR]

There are lots of EOs that could possibly be used as actual preservatives, but IMO it would take an expert to get the correct mix/percentages. Many of the preservative companies are experimenting with new components, but most are either not available to home crafters, are horribly expensive, or have such a strong odor that you have to take that into consideration. If it were easy they'd already have a natural preservative available...

[Marisa]

Actually, that is what I mentioned to her...I would love to do lotions and I hate to feel like we have to decide on a disease or bacteria!LOL Anyway she sells a mass amount of EO"S and is very much into the natural thing and Im sure both sides have many plus's and minus about them..I was told that its best to sell B&B products within 3 months.. Needless to say.. I formulate and look for recipe and packaging that does not contain or let water in it..With todays technology hopefully it wont be to long before theres an answer to our woes and a product for the home crafter to know that out products are mold/yesat free.

[AVD]

I always label with expiration dates (usually not more than 3-6 months and they should discard) just to be on the safe side. I also put a blurb on the label explaining why. I myself even with a mass produced lotion never kept them longer than 3-6 months.

[CareBear]

AVD, can you give me the quote off your label explaining why? I'm struggling with the verbiage.

TIA, Carol

[smokymountainraine]

I think if you use proper lab techniques and go about making lotion in a professional responsible manner you will have a safe product. I have several lotions here that are over a year old and are just fine. The thing is I don't cut corners. I have to work myself up to make lotion. I hate making them because of all the work I put into it. Unfortunately I have to use my kitchen to make them. I scrub ever surface including the walls before I make them. Lots of work but I enjoy knowing that I have a quality product when I am finished. I wish I could afford the preservative testing but I can't.

[AVD]

Well I wont give out my exact blurb of what I put...but I will give you a short version that you can turn into your own. I basically state that since we try to keep our products as natural as possible and that every ingredient has expiration dates to keep products fresh, we only guarantee our products for 3-6 months (this varies per product). We preserve every product for safety, but even preservatives expire and are no longer effective. I am working on my site and have gone into much further detail of an explanation. I have also stated experiences I have gone through myself (severe infection) from non-preserved products.

I sometimes too have a hard time coming up with wording. But I check thesauruses and dictionaries for help...and eventually I get it. I feel it is very important to come up with your own wording with pointers from others.