PhoenixFyre Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Hoping for some clarification from you soaping superheroes. Is it wrong to formulate a soap recipe with the water calculated as a percentage of the oils? I thought this was okay to do (it's what I've been doing so far), but during some research tonight I found an article that left me feeling like it was a huge no-no and that I would be damned for doing it (okay, not really...but it did leave me feeling confused). The way I have understood it, the water amount doesn't affect the lye and saponification. As long as the lye has been calculated according to the SAP values of the acids in the recipe, then the acids will saponify, and the water basically affects trace and curing time (in very simplified terms), right? The article actually said as much, too, but it then went on to say that calculating the water as a percentage of the oils is bad because if you use the same percentage for your recipes, then the curing times for the soaps will different. My thought process on that was: 1. using water as a % of oils doesn't mean I have to use the same percentage with EVERY recipe, and 2. if I know things about the oils/butters I'm using, like that olive oil is a slower tracer, then I can adjust the water % accordingly. Same with accelerating FOs or complicated designs...I can adjust the water depending on what I'm doing. Even if one were using a set ratio of a lye:water solution, wouldn't you still adjust it for something like an accelerating FO or a single-oil soap that can benefit from less water? The article also insinuated that using water as a % of oils would mean you can't masterbatch your lye water. But you still can, right? If you just masterbatch a 50/50 solution and then add in the rest of the water (or other liquid) you need at the time you're making the soap, then that should be okay, right? Guess I'm just feeling a little nervous that I've completely misunderstood everything about soap making that I thought I knew. Any help you all can give to clear this up for me is appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sponiebr Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 (Huoo boy...) I only calculate my water as a % of the oils... In fact everything I do in soap making is based off of a % of the oils. Oddly enough there is a popular term used in soap making: PPO which is "per pound of oils". It's wildly popular... I've heard the argument before, and I understand they want to try and get the point of saponification and a reduced water content for the sake of gel and... blah, blah, blah... Yeah, I guess the truly pure way would be to get down to the molecular weights and find the optimal water content, but I personally like making soap more than doing the math... I say you're good to go with the water as % PPO, @PhoenixFyre. Sponiebr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixFyre Posted February 19, 2017 Author Share Posted February 19, 2017 5 hours ago, Sponiebr said: I say you're good to go with the water as % PPO, @PhoenixFyre. Thanks, Sponie! I love your PPO comment...same thing had gone through my head when reading the article. Thanks for the reassurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) I only think of the % of water/liquid to oils when I want to reduce the amount of water or do a water discount. The standard water amount on soapcalc is set at the default of 38% water to oil. From what I remember in my soap classes this is the basic primer standard. You can always reduce or raise the water % depending on what you want to do when you are making a batch. For example, I typically lower my water to a 33% solution for most of my soapmaking because I want my soaps to be harder faster. Using less liquid means there is less to evaporate out of the finished bar. So you tend to get a harder bar faster. Don't confuse that with a cured bar. You still want to cure it if you want a milder soap. I should also point out that your oil/fat combo in your recipe will also play a factor in the properties like 'hardness' also. So it is possible to make a softer soap or one with a lower 'hardness' property even if you discount your water. The water discount means that the less water you use the less evaporation in the bar. So the more liquid/water you use in your batch the softer and more fluid the batter will be. This works great with say FOs that accelerate. So with those I want to use the full water or 38%. You should play around with it and experiment and you will see through experience how it effects your soapmaking and the finished soap. Edited February 19, 2017 by Candybee 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 I forgot to add that the water % of your recipe should not effect the cure time for the finished soap. Whether I use 33% or 38% water my soaps will still need the same amount of cure time. Basically a discounted water soap may get harder faster but still needs the same amount of time to cure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 56 minutes ago, Candybee said: I forgot to add that the water % of your recipe should not effect the cure time for the finished soap. Whether I use 33% or 38% water my soaps will still need the same amount of cure time. Basically a discounted water soap may get harder faster but still needs the same amount of time to cure. Good information here, thanks CB... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixFyre Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 Thank you so much, @Candybee. Everything you said makes perfect sense and is exactly what I thought. And thanks also for clarifying about curing. I know I said that the water amount would affect curing, but in my brain I was thinking of the amount of water that would end up evaporating from the bars. Thanks so much for catching that. I definitely will continue to experiment with different water amounts to see what happens; I just wanted to be sure I wasn't doing something wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sponiebr Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, Candybee said: (This is causing me distress...) I'd say MOST of the time that is the case, but definitely not all the time especially with problematic accelerants... Sometimes the water will actually cause the soap to seize up, Beeswax in the soap, and pine tar soaps are 2 that spring to mind. For me they both seem to behave themselves a bit better at a water discount. Also bear in mind that the higher your water content, the lower the temperature at which the soap can gel... (note: I wrote can...) You made some excellent points. It is true that there are always exceptions to the rule. Some additives or recipe combos will excellerate no matter what you do. In those cases its up to you to find how to work with it or even find ways to slow it down. Edited February 20, 2017 by Candybee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Okay I just realized I messed up Sponiebr's post and didn't mean to. I was trying to 'quote' the paragraph but hit the 'edit' button instead. Sorry but I can't fix it... there is no 'undo' button. This is what happens when you start posting before you finished your cuppa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sponiebr Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Candybee said: Okay I just realized I messed up Sponiebr's post and didn't mean to. I was trying to 'quote' the paragraph but hit the 'edit' button instead. Sorry but I can't fix it... there is no 'undo' button. This is what happens when you start posting before you finished your cuppa. I have been CENSORED!!! (oh! the SHAME!!!!) Sponiebr: the silenced one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixFyre Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 13 minutes ago, Sponiebr said: I have been CENSORED!!! (oh! the SHAME!!!!) Sponiebr: the silenced one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 In a roundabout way, the water as a % of oils is similar to water as a % in lye solution. I am so trained to measuring the lye and water as a unit for checks and balances on my batch sheets, I can't wrap my head around using the oil amount to calculate water. I don't even like master batching lye since even a gram of extra lye changes the super fat more than I want to change it. at a minimum you need equal parts by weight of lye and liquid to keep the lye in solution. So long as you have that, I guess your formulas would be fine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 For the record, I typically soap using a 40% lye solution. This gives me a quick weight that I can compare to my batch sheet to be sure I am not going to make a very expensive mistake. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixFyre Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 39 minutes ago, TallTayl said: at a minimum you need equal parts by weight of lye and liquid to keep the lye in solution. So long as you have that, I guess your formulas would be fine. I suspected as much and the article I read supported this idea as well, stating that a 50% lye solution is the absolute max water discount one should take. For kicks I recalculated the water amounts I've used, and the % of oil numbers I've used so far worked out to around a 27 to 28% lye solution, which the article called a mild water discount. I've stayed pretty much at that end of the spectrum through all my batches, so I'll play with a 40% lye solution just to see the difference. Thanks, TallTayl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Wow! 27-28% is a lot of water! You might see a huge difference when you drop water to a 40% level. When you get used to working with less water you'll find different challenges, but your soap will have far less water to evaporate out making your cut soap weight a good deal closer to the final cured weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 When I first started making soap I used less liquid to lye in a couple of early batches and learned the hard way that you most definitely need a minimum of 50/50% lye to water. When the lye was heavier than the liquid I got hard crystallized lye in the bottom of my bowl. It was a good lesson learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.