Trolling for DOS.

[Sponiebr]

Happy Thanksgiving all' y'all. 

I've seemed to have survived the onslaught of very small nieces and nephews on 3 hours of sleep. Yay! 

 

So, on to my trolling... I'm trolling here and other forums for these issues, not because it's actual "trolling", even though I AM a Troll, (technically EVERYTHING I post is trolling), I just need some concise input on these issues. These issues may not seem interconnected, but I sense that they are in fact very connected to each other.

 

1. DOS what it is, where do it come from, how to not get it, and most importantly how to intentionally develop DOS in a consistent manner.
So as I understand it DOS is basically rancid oil in soap, which is to say that the oils have oxidized and are now in a more acidic state than they were. In other places and arts oxidized oils are wonderful highly desired things because most oxidized oils produce a plastic like substance, that in woodworking we call varnish, but plastic/varnish spots in soap doesn't seem to sell well. As I understand it soap that can not breathe combined with heat UV exposure, and moisture all cause accelerated DOS formation. There also seems to be a direct link to DOS formation with formulations that have high linoleic &/or linolenic content. I have heard that it was wise to keep the numbers on the combined total of these 2 fatty acids below "x" in your lye calculator. I have heard it vary from 15 to 12, and I think I remember seeing one post that the OP tries to keep that total below 8. What do YOU say X is as the magic number to keep the linoleic & linolenic acids content below to prevent DOS formation?

2. Canola oil: I've got a mixed review on this fat. Some overwhelmingly approve of it's use to sub for Olive Oil, other's think it's a trashy oil with no lather character, and still other's that believe it to cause DOS.  I've got some of that oxide test batch made where the OO in my Standard formulation was replaced with Canola Oil. I didn't just use ANY Canola oil folks, I used the bottom of the barrel 1 pint at $.76 so off brand that the label read "Canola Oil 16 oz.  Product of Canada". My numbers for the linoleic & linolenic totaled 13. That soap seems to be actually quite nice, good fast white bubbly lather, good hardness, it is a slightly softer than my standard formulation with OO, but it seem's like a nice soap. This is causing me upset, as I also found 25 lb buckets of Armor Brand Lard at $.09/oz next to the insanely cheap they're-really-only-charging-you-for-the-plastic-bottle-and-paper-label $.04/oz canola oil. What to DO? What to do...?
 

3. What is the fastest and most efficient manner (without having to buy steaming equipment) to clean up and polish/shine/buff/make-them-so-that-at-least-they-don't-look-like-crap bars of soap? I was wondering if literally just rinsing the little chips and smudges off under running cold water, pat dry leave for a few hours to dry a little wouldn't be an acceptable method? Is damp pantyhose and the tedium of spit shining soap the only method out there? I've made a beveler and I just use a knife as a scraper to get that weird leathery white stuff off the top of the soap (I think it's soda ash, but it's tough and it only forms on the tops of my soap that are exposed while in the mold.  

 

4. Back to that oxide test batch, there were 3 uncolored bars that I got out of that batch, nice pretty white bars of lightly scented peppermint EO soap made with as I mentioned canola replacing my standard formulation to get 40% GV Tallow/Palm Shortening, 33% Canola, 22% CO, 5% Castor at @38% Water to Oil and 5%SF, Linoleic at 10 and Linolenic at 3.   (My standard uses 35% OO and 20% CO) Anywho, I'm thinking I should abuse the hell out of the remaining 2 uncolored bars e.g.: individually seal them in saran wrap and put into ziplock baggies one exposed to sunlight and heat and all the weirdness of Florida life that my car can offer, and the other kept inside my bedroom laying on my desk. I want to see if this is a viable soap option with the canola or not and there is a reason behind my curiosity regarding this and DOS formation. Last Sunday I was in my Hardware store and they were selling "lye soap" which was sealed up in a damaged plastic shrink wrap and SHOT THROUGH with DOS. The wrapper was all tattered and the soap was covered in grimy black hardware store dust, and it was just gross, but by the Mo-Jaal's hairy left butt cheek they were still trying to sell'm at $7 a bar!!!! Not really the point... My point is those bars in the AC developed DOS, so how do we get a solid case of DOS? Would that rinse I mentioned above increase the likelihood of DOS formation?

Repeat my mantra: If you know what a bad idea is, then it's exact opposite must be a good idea.  It's not always that easy to execute...

Your advice and experience, as always, is greatly esteemed.  

 Slainte, 

 

Sponiebr the Executor (actually I'm still suspended... but I'M TRY'N t'get back in the game!!!! ) 

[Scented]

DOS is dreaded orange spots ... very easy to get with old oils and humid conditions ... probably would not be as consistent, but the who the heck really wants the consistency of that? If you're wanting it,  invest in orange micas/oxides and make your own orange spots. Only soapers really know what it is, so the seller probably doesn't realize what he's doing and you ought to tell him what he's got on the shelf.  

 

Since you like to troll, then you've seen the articles. Here's one to read about DOS and go find caveman chemistry articles that will say be close to the same thing. 

 

I would be more inclined to overwhelming suggest RBO instead of Canola as a sub for  OO, but still OO over RBO. I like the feel better. At 100% RBO to me it was sticky-ish, straight OO takes a little longer to cure in my recipe and a 50:50 combo of the two works just fine. Maybe it's a preference, but I hadn't heard Canola was a sub.

 

What do you want? Beautiful edges that are planed and everything buffed to a shine? There are different ways to do this. I personally don't mess with it, but I'm personally not into fondling my bars and our customers aren't either. We shrink wrap our bars, but leave a sniff hole. I run a finger along the cut edges to get the loose stuff off and then set it aside to cure. There are others who buff with water I believe and others who plane and some who do both. Experiment with what you've found out there and see what you like. The thing is that anything you settle on won't be efficient till you work the system and get used to whatever you want to do. 

 

Not venturing to answer your #4, except that there are a lot of things that contribute to DOS and if someone figured out a cure for it we'd all be doing the same thing perhaps. The bottom line is it isn't always oldness of soap, but that can contribute. I started soaping somewhere around 05 or 06 and still have 10-year-old bars that have no DOS and they've been through humid conditions. The idea of putting them in your car frankly to me is a waste of testing and trying to make your bars break out unless your environment in your car is matched inside somewhere, which isn't likely. It's hotter in a vehicle than a building. But this is JMO.

 

While maybe you are looking for a straight out answer to what causes something there are just too many things that can be different that you can't set up a situation to waste a bunch of oils to prove it ... maybe you can, but I can't see anyone else thinking oh what a fun test! 

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Scented

[TallTayl]

I have an article that described the soaping oils in relation to proneness to DOS, and skin feel for leave on. I will locate and share, or paraphrase the best I can.

 

in addition to saturated versus unsaturated fats in soap, your water can contribute to DOS, along wth your tools, storage shelving material, fragrances and additives.

 

my tap water is very high in iron, even with a softener. Nothing but distilled goes into my soap and skin care. I take great care with my tools to not leave tap water on them when drying. 

 

If you have metal tools, they might not be 100% stainless steel. I use plastic pails and silicone spatulas after discovering flecks of stainless steel coating shivering off a spoon. Likewise your storage shelves, if metal of any sort, can contribute metal ions into the air borne dust and cause DOS. Even a metal soap dish in the bathroom can cause it. 

 

A few fragrances i have used have even caused DOS. I know when it does beyond a shadow of a doubt since I test up to 30 new fragrances at a time, splitting all from a main batch. When one develops DOS and none of the other 29 do you can kind of be pretty positive of the cause.

[Candybee]

I'm not an expert in the chemistry of soapmaking but I have been making CP and HP soaps for several yrs now. I love to experiment with recipes and different oils and have tried many configurations. There are several things I keep in mind thou when developing a new soap recipe so that my soap will not get DOS.

 

I must be doing something right because I learned on my own to pay attention to the shelf life of oils/butters, blending more longer shelf life oils with lesser shelf life oils to create recipes that produce a more stable oil combination, paying attention to my fatty acid profiles in my recipes, using soap safe materials like silicone molds and hard plastic bowls and rubbermaid spatulas.

 

In all the years I  have been making soap I only had one batch that developed DOS. After getting some info from Talltail I was able to tweak the recipe by lowering the linoleic acid by rearranging my oils. The recipe was a shampoo bar that required a combo of oils that can typically create DOS because of their high linoleic content like grapeseed, avocado, and soybean oils. My first batch developed DOS almost within a month. So by tweaking the recipe to lower my linoleic content I could still have a shampoo bar that was super high in conditioning and low to no cleansing that did not develop DOS.

 

There are still many factors that can cause DOS but I think if you use common sense by using the right equipment, keeping your environment, work area, and soaping tools clean, pay attention to your soap recipe's fatty acid profiles, combine stable oils with any less stable oils in your recipe, you should do fine and DOS would be an extreme rarity if at all for you.

 

BTW, I have never used ROE to improve the shelf life of my oils and don't plan to use it. It's more fun and challenging to me to learn how to combine my oils to get just the right amount of soap properties out of my soaps that I want in them.

[Sponiebr]

On 11/26/2016 at 7:31 PM, Scented said:

 

On 11/27/2016 at 10:52 AM, Candybee said:

 

On 11/26/2016 at 7:41 PM, TallTayl said:

 

 

Thank you all for your help. I've been able to read the comments over the past couple of days and I appreciate it. I'd like to write more, but life has become a "tad busy" at the moment and bad soap is the least of my concerns. 

 

Slainte,

 

Sponiebr: leading competitor in the grand championships of BOHICA. 

[Shari]

I agree with all the above.  I've been making soap for many years now and have only had DOS once, it was 100% CO soap with 0 SF.  Not sure what may have caused that but it's never happened again either.    As stated, many factors can play into your soapmaking and whan may/can cause DOS.  It's all about your formulation, tools, EO/FO's, water , storage, weather etc....

[Sponiebr]

8 hours ago, Shari said:

I agree with all the above.  I've been making soap for many years now and have only had DOS once, it was 100% CO soap with 0 SF.  Not sure what may have caused that but it's never happened again either.    As stated, many factors can play into your soapmaking and whan may/can cause DOS.  It's all about your formulation, tools, EO/FO's, water , storage, weather etc....

CO, as in Coconut oil? Wow that's creeperific... If you can get DOS in 100% CO soap with 0 SF there really must be some sort of black magic involved in making soap. (TBH, I always suspected as much...) 

[Scented]

Well look at that typo! It was 100% CP for method not CO. 

It was way back in an experimental stages of trying to make a soap heavy in CO that wasn't harsh or irritating. Somewhere the recipe is still around, because both batches made using it produced DOS, which goes fine with a yellow, orange and pink pearberry scent, but doesn't look good with a blue and pink swirled SJP scent. 

[Sponiebr]

8 hours ago, Scented said:

Well look at that typo! It was 100% CP for method not CO. 

It was way back in an experimental stages of trying to make a soap heavy in CO that wasn't harsh or irritating. Somewhere the recipe is still around, because both batches made using it produced DOS, which goes fine with a yellow, orange and pink pearberry scent, but doesn't look good with a blue and pink swirled SJP scent. 

AAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!! Magic!!!! It's BLACK MAGIC!!!!! Shari turned into Scented!!! RUN!!!!! 

Off the top of your head, do you remember how much CO you were able to get away with and what the SF ended up as? I did some 100% CO Oatflour, Goat's Milk, and Honey bars at 20% SF and 1 oz PPO Honey  and they were still quite drying to my skin. It seems that if I go above the number 17 in cleansing in soapcalc It's too drying for me. (with CO that is.) 

 

[TallTayl]

How long did you cure them for Sponiebr? 

[Scented]

7 hours ago, Sponiebr said:

AAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!! Magic!!!! It's BLACK MAGIC!!!!! Shari turned into Scented!!! RUN!!!!! 

Off the top of your head, do you remember how much CO you were able to get away with and what the SF ended up as? I did some 100% CO Oatflour, Goat's Milk, and Honey bars at 20% SF and 1 oz PPO Honey  and they were still quite drying to my skin. It seems that if I go above the number 17 in cleansing in soapcalc It's too drying for me. (with CO that is.) 

 

I use 25% in my bars, but the process of what I do to make it less harsh might be a bit complicated to explain, but not complicated to make. Basically I use less lye. What calculator are you using? 

[Scented]

7 hours ago, Sponiebr said:

AAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!! Magic!!!! It's BLACK MAGIC!!!!! Shari turned into Scented!!! RUN!!!!! 
 

No black magic ... I wear a lime helmet ... see to the left ... it is not magical 

[Sponiebr]

3 hours ago, Scented said:

I use 25% in my bars, but the process of what I do to make it less harsh might be a bit complicated to explain, but not complicated to make. Basically I use less lye. What calculator are you using? 

Usually I use soapcalc.net. So in CP soap super fating ends up being a lye discount. HP you can actually add fat to the soap at the end of the cook to gain a specific emollient, but in CP the lye decides what it will and won't turn into soap. So, what ARE you doing to make it less harsh, lye discount + high water and a long cure? PH buffer? Iz veeery interestinks. How ist ju doingz zeezs?  Ve vant to know...

 

 

5 hours ago, Scented said:

No black magic ... I wear a lime helmet ... see to the left ... it is not magical 

 
Hmmmmm.... "Bohemian keeper of the magic hat."   

I dunno... Something seems... Off... Limes and coconuts and mixing... I dunno...

 
 

[Sponiebr]

8 hours ago, TallTayl said:

How long did you cure them for Sponiebr? 

Oh I don't remember but it was about 6 weeks minimum and now it's been around 6 months and they're still very drying to me. Other people love them. One person was not impressed with the lather. That particular formulation is a thing of my past. NO MORE! I'm moving forward into the bright, bold, (OW! Bright... hot... painful... ugh..), future. 

 

 

[Scented]

15 hours ago, Sponiebr said:

Usually I use soapcalc.net. So in CP soap super fating ends up being a lye discount. HP you can actually add fat to the soap at the end of the cook to gain a specific emollient, but in CP the lye decides what it will and won't turn into soap. So, what ARE you doing to make it less harsh, lye discount + high water and a long cure? PH buffer? Iz veeery interestinks. How ist ju doingz zeezs?  Ve vant to know...

 

 

 
Hmmmmm.... "Bohemian keeper of the magic hat."   

I dunno... Something seems... Off... Limes and coconuts and mixing... I dunno...

 
 

First, that magic hat is a gorgeous and warm stocking cap I stole from someone in a white elephant swap  

Yeah I know SF reduces it but not enough IMO.  

So I'll try to explain it. 

After you've loaded the ingredients and amounts in and set you portion size so to speak and water, then print/save it so you have it. Then go through the list of oils and start subbing in another oil for the coconut, calculate it and if the lye amount goes down by than 1 or 5 grams etc. though it should have a much bigger change than that. So let's say you start with chicken fat as the experimental numbers to use. Plug it in for coconut and recalculate. Make a batch and see it affects it and keep experimenting with subbing in other oils. As you make batches to see how the changes affect your batches, keep experimenting with the substitute numbers only. So like you aren't swapping in chicken fat oil for coconut in the actual batch. You are subbing in chicken fat's numbers and using the same amount of coconut. There is a point when it's too low, but I don't remember what that was, just that I found what proportion works for me. That's basically what I have done. 

I couldn't make the SF work enough for me to get the irritation/dryness out of the end feel till I started doing this once I found the right amount of deduction for my recipe. 

 

[Sponiebr]

7 hours ago, Scented said:

First, that magic hat is a gorgeous and warm stocking cap I stole from someone in a white elephant swap  

OH! (whew) I feel less paranoid now. I've just had bad experiences with magic people.  For example, my soon to be ex-wife mentioned magic one time and it turns out she is a succubus. I mean how was I supposed to know this? (she didn't even have a hat...)  

Yeah I know SF reduces it but not enough IMO.  

So I'll try to explain it. 

After you've loaded the ingredients and amounts in and set you portion size so to speak and water, then print/save it so you have it. Then go through the list of oils and start subbing in another oil for the coconut, calculate it and if the lye amount goes down by than 1 or 5 grams etc. though it should have a much bigger change than that. So let's say you start with chicken fat as the experimental numbers to use. Plug it in for coconut and recalculate. Make a batch and see it affects it and keep experimenting with subbing in other oils. As you make batches to see how the changes affect your batches, keep experimenting with the substitute numbers only. So like you aren't swapping in chicken fat oil for coconut in the actual batch. You are subbing in chicken fat's numbers and using the same amount of coconut. There is a point when it's too low, but I don't remember what that was, just that I found what proportion works for me. That's basically what I have done. 

I couldn't make the SF work enough for me to get the irritation/dryness out of the end feel till I started doing this once I found the right amount of deduction for my recipe. 

 

 So... You've just basically increased your lye discount for CO using other natural SAP values? Yeah, OK... I can see the value in that. Sometimes those tiny tweaks produce pretty substantial results. Were you ever able to reverse engineer the exact SF% for optimal results? 

[Scented]

I have my recipe down to what I like, which I never started with chicken fat. I just used that as an example. I know there are new oils on the list that weren't there before, but I am happy with what I have. It took some testing to get what I wanted. Will I tell you exactly what oil I used? No. This method works for me and my recipe. I can't say that it will work for yours, but you'll need to test to see if it works at all for you.