??? about Goatsmilk, Oatmeal and Honey in CP Soap

[MoonShadow]

I want to make a moisturing bar with Goatsmilk, Oatmeal and Honey, no FO. I understand the sugars in the milk and honey will cause more heating, and I shouldn't insulate.

I'm thinking I'll try soaping around 92 for both the oils and lye/milk solution and add honey and oatmeal at light trace.

My question is, as I develop and plug the recipe into a calculator, do I superfat? Or no?

Am I on the right track here?

[8-GRAN-ONES]

I think if you soap cool..you will be fine...watch it..if it looks like it is heating up in the mold..put it under a fan..or put in the frig..

I have made soap many times with GM..I have used both powdered and fresh..and have used fresh honey..I have never had any real problems..

Superfating is an option on the conditioning of your soap..it is very nice if you are wanting a more conditioning soap..

I have SF my soap up to 8..

Are you going to grind up your OM, and put it in your soap..or just sprinkle it on top?

If you are putting it in the soap..make sure you don't put to much..HTH

[TallTayl]

Yes to the superfat. I would treat it as if it were an ordinary batch made using plain water. If you normally SF at 5%, then calculate it as such. I typically SF at 7-8% for all soap with milks of any kind as no exception.

I would not soap too low. You may get unintended false trace if your formula contains a lot of harder oils. As 8Granones mentioned, just watch your poured soap in the mold. If it appears to be warming too quickly, raise it off the table to allow air to circulate beneath it, place it in front of a fan, or even outside if needed (it's about 2 degrees F here right now). Keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't cool too quickly leaving you with partial gel.

[MoonShadow]

Thank you both SO much!

As for the oatmeal, I think I'm going to grind up some to put in at light trace, with the honey, maybe 1 TB PPO of each? Or is that too much honey? Since I'm not scenting it with any FO, I do want to be able to smell the honey.

And then I'll sprinkle whole oats on the top. Outside might be a really good idea. I am going to do this in the evening. I live in FL and it should be around 60 degrees by then. (I grew up in northern OH, and remember the 2 degree days. Brrrrrrr)

[8-GRAN-ONES]

for the honey 1 tbsp..pp is good..Don't put it in the lye water..it will burn, and caramelize.

I would add it to the soap oils and stick blend it in really good..before adding the lye..anyways that is the way I do it..when using honey..

the oatmeal, maybe 1 teasp pp..if that is not enough, you can add more to the next batch..but once it is in, you can't take it out..

so I would go less until you have tired it..

and yes as taltayl said..you don't want partial gell..that is where the soap has a circle in the middle..

I have a recipe that uses honey, GM..I put it on a wire wrack..and put a towel over it..but i watch it..if it looks like it is going

to over heat I uncover it..

[MoonShadow]

Got it! THANKS AGAIN!

[8-GRAN-ONES]

something more..

when adding the honey..i forgot to say..I would take out a cup or so of the oils..and mix it up in that first..that way you know

it is really mixed in good..then add it to the rest of the oils..and mix good again

Edited January 20, 2012 by 8-GRAN-ONES

[MoonShadow]

something more..

when adding the honey..i forgot to say..I would take out a cup or so of the oils..and mix it up in that first..that way you know

it is really mixed in good..then add it to the rest of the oils..and mix good again

Ooooo! Great tip! Thanks!

[MoonShadow]

Oh dear. Well, it overheated.

I placed it on a rack and didn't cover it, but within twenty minutes I had a big crack. I then took it outside, but too late.

It turned pumpkin orange when the lye solution was added. I kinda knew I was in trouble then, But it was only 100 degrees and the oils, honey and milk blend was 96.

So I'm thinking... I shouldn't use raw honey? (I did SB it separately with a cup of oils as suggested before adding back into the oils...)

Or....I didn't add the lye solution slowly enough?

Or...I should have chilled the canned GM ( I used canned evaporated kind so I used half the amount of water for the lye solution)

Or...I should have put the mold into the freezer immediately?

Suggestions?

[8-GRAN-ONES]

you could have put it right in the freezer or frig..

next time try having your mold cold before adding soap..

i have had mine crack before, i just kind of gently push it together as much as I can..

and also you can take of little of the soap when you cut it that is just very fine, and

fill in the crack..and smooth it with a qtip dipped in water..

that is a bummer, when you do everything you can, and it still overheats..

the color could also tone down..sometimes as it cures a few days the color can change.

i use honey in several of my soaps..and they are more temperamental. but it can be done..

don't give up..just try different ways, until you find what works for you..

good luck..

[MoonShadow]

you could have put it right in the freezer or frig..

next time try having your mold cold before adding soap..

i have had mine crack before, i just kind of gently push it together as much as I can..

and also you can take of little of the soap when you cut it that is just very fine, and

fill in the crack..and smooth it with a qtip dipped in water..

that is a bummer, when you do everything you can, and it still overheats..

the color could also tone down..sometimes as it cures a few days the color can change.

i use honey in several of my soaps..and they are more temperamental. but it can be done..

don't give up..just try different ways, until you find what works for you..

good luck..

Thanks! I won't give up. I'm too stubborn...or addicted!

[8-GRAN-ONES]

Good...

did you have a fan on it?

if not..you can try that too..

[MoonShadow]

Good...

did you have a fan on it?

if not..you can try that too..

I didn't. I don't have a portable fan. Just ceiling fans, and they're in other rooms. I try to keep the soap stuff in a separate "crafts" room, where the cats aren't allowed.

[soycrazy]

Honey is my nemesis. I've only been soaping for 5 years now and I still can't conquer honey in soap! It always separates out even putting it in the frig so I feel your pain. Don't give up though we are bound to get it lol

[8-GRAN-ONES]

i use honey and GM in my cp soap made with..Elements, Patchouli & Honey..I use 2tbsp pp..of honey..

I do have trouble with it wanting to heat up..but have never had my honey separate out..

I do soap cool..when I make this..and work fast as it traces pretty fast..

i put it on a wire rack, and turn my fan on which is right over my soap..

something else maybe try..heat just a little bit of water, maybe 3 or 4 tbsp..and stir the honey in it..so it just kind of

dissolves into the water..then add to the oils and mix really good right before pouring in the lye/water..

where there is a will...there is a way...lol

Edited January 21, 2012 by 8-GRAN-ONES

[TallTayl]

Sorry for the issues you experienced with the GMsoap. The color you describe leads me to believe you didn't freeze your GM prior to adding the lye. Bright orange = burning milk protein. It doesn't ruin the soap, but it may be a bit whiffy until the ammonia smell cures away.

If you're up for another trial run, freeze your milk (a zip loc bag works great). You can add your lye right to the frozen block of GM in your mixing vessel, or thaw the milk to a slushy state. I've been successful adding the lye in small amounts and all at once. Just keep it moving to help dissolve the lye. The trick to lighter colored soap is to keep the lye and milk mixture from getting hot as you're adding the lye.

Some people keep the lye mixing vessel in an ice water bath as an added precaution to keep the blend cool.

As soon as you're confident all of the lye crystals have dissolved, add the solution to your warmed oils/butters. ( I always run the lye solution through a sieve to catch anything that may not have completely dissolved.) You should then have a much lower starting temp. I'd still elevate the mold off the counter surface and apply gentle air movement for the first hour or so - until the initial chemical reaction slows.

I use raw GM and honey all the time with no overheating problems (using 40% lye solution usually). If the honey is thick or beginning to crystallize I like to mix it in some reserved water before stick blending like crazy into the soft oils. It just takes a little pre-planning to keep things cool.

[IwantItgreen]

For what it's worth... I read several reply's on a similar question on a different forum and some experienced soapmakers add their thinned honey (mixed with reserved water from lye mixture) and then added it to the cooled lye solution. The lye solution will heat back up again, but the soap won't after it's in the mold. I haven't had a chance to try it, but intend to soon.

[MoonShadow]

Sorry for the issues you experienced with the GMsoap. The color you describe leads me to believe you didn't freeze your GM prior to adding the lye. Bright orange = burning milk protein. It doesn't ruin the soap, but it may be a bit whiffy until the ammonia smell cures away.

If you're up for another trial run, freeze your milk (a zip loc bag works great). You can add your lye right to the frozen block of GM in your mixing vessel, or thaw the milk to a slushy state. I've been successful adding the lye in small amounts and all at once. Just keep it moving to help dissolve the lye. The trick to lighter colored soap is to keep the lye and milk mixture from getting hot as you're adding the lye.

Some people keep the lye mixing vessel in an ice water bath as an added precaution to keep the blend cool.

As soon as you're confident all of the lye crystals have dissolved, add the solution to your warmed oils/butters. ( I always run the lye solution through a sieve to catch anything that may not have completely dissolved.) You should then have a much lower starting temp. I'd still elevate the mold off the counter surface and apply gentle air movement for the first hour or so - until the initial chemical reaction slows.

I use raw GM and honey all the time with no overheating problems (using 40% lye solution usually). If the honey is thick or beginning to crystallize I like to mix it in some reserved water before stick blending like crazy into the soft oils. It just takes a little pre-planning to keep things cool.

Yeah, when I saw the bright orange that's what I was thinking happened. I had read about people freezing fresh goats milk and adding the lye slowly to melt it, but does than work with the evaporated kind too? In other words, I could reconstitute the canned milk with equal part water and then freeze that? And then add the lye slowly to it?

[MoonShadow]

To those of you who make GM/honey soap, at what temps do you add the lye solution to the oils? I usually blend the two when the/y're both close to 100 degrees. Should I go lower with GM/honey?

[ChrisR]

My temps are usually 85 to 90.

[TallTayl]

Evaporated milks are much simpler than fresh IMO. What I would do in that case is dissolve your lye in the the plain water you would normally use to reconstitute the milk. Just make sure you're using at least as much water by weight as lye crystals (to make at most a 50% lye:water solution). This will ensure complete dissolution of the lye crystals.

While your lye water solution cools, stick blend the evaporated milk into your soft oils along with your honey, then add that to the melted hard oils and stick blend well to help ensure a nice blend.

Once the lye solution is ready, add it to the other mixture and blend to your desired level of trace. Easy peasy. I don't take temps, but around 100 degrees for both the lye solution and the oils should be fine to guard against false trace. Once the lye solution is introduced into the oils you'll see a slight rise in temp as the exothermic reaction begins.

My process for using powdered milks is similar - reconstitute the powder in just enough reserved water to make a thick slurry. As an added measure against little browned milk spots, I'll run the reconstituted milk through a sieve to catch any lumps that may not have dissolved completely. Add that milk to the soft oils/melted hard oils, stick blending very well. Then add cooled lye solution and follow your normal soaping procedures.

Unscented GM soap is always in my top 3 sellers year over year followed by Lavender GM and Lemongrass GM, so I get to make tons of GM soap. Powders and evaporated forms are simplest for me, but I have several goat farmers that provide freezers full of fresh milk, so it's the 'old fashioned way' most of the time Once you develop the feel for it making GM is a breeze.

[MoonShadow]

Evaporated milks are much simpler than fresh IMO. What I would do in that case is dissolve your lye in the the plain water you would normally use to reconstitute the milk. Just make sure you're using at least as much water by weight as lye crystals (to make at most a 50% lye:water solution). This will ensure complete dissolution of the lye crystals.

While your lye water solution cools, stick blend the evaporated milk into your soft oils along with your honey, then add that to the melted hard oils and stick blend well to help ensure a nice blend.

Once the lye solution is ready, add it to the other mixture and blend to your desired level of trace. Easy peasy. I don't take temps, but around 100 degrees for both the lye solution and the oils should be fine to guard against false trace. Once the lye solution is introduced into the oils you'll see a slight rise in temp as the exothermic reaction begins.

My process for using powdered milks is similar - reconstitute the powder in just enough reserved water to make a thick slurry. As an added measure against little browned milk spots, I'll run the reconstituted milk through a sieve to catch any lumps that may not have dissolved completely. Add that milk to the soft oils/melted hard oils, stick blending very well. Then add cooled lye solution and follow your normal soaping procedures.

Unscented GM soap is always in my top 3 sellers year over year followed by Lavender GM and Lemongrass GM, so I get to make tons of GM soap. Powders and evaporated forms are simplest for me, but I have several goat farmers that provide freezers full of fresh milk, so it's the 'old fashioned way' most of the time Once you develop the feel for it making GM is a breeze.

Thanks TallTayl, I'm determined to master GM soap.

The evaporated milk process you describe is exactly how I did it. :embarasse But I got overheating and separation.

Do you superfat your recipes?

[TallTayl]

Thanks TallTayl, I'm determined to master GM soap.

The evaporated milk process you describe is exactly how I did it. :embarasse But I got overheating and separation.

Do you superfat your recipes?

Yes. My standard production formula is superfatted at 7%. I make no adjustments when using milks.

The ambient temps in my work area are always in the low 60's. For milk soaps I use wooden single log molds with either re-usable foam liners, lexan liners or paper. No other insulation. My block molds are not usually used for milk soaps simply because they generate too much heat.

I don't pre-heat the molds, but do keep a fan around when making milk soaps.

HTH

[MoonShadow]

Yes. My standard production formula is superfatted at 7%. I make no adjustments when using milks.

The ambient temps in my work area are always in the low 60's. For milk soaps I use wooden single log molds with either re-usable foam liners, lexan liners or paper. No other insulation. My block molds are not usually used for milk soaps simply because they generate too much heat.

I don't pre-heat the molds, but do keep a fan around when making milk soaps.

HTH

I superfatted at 7% too, like I also usually do. I used a wooden log mold lined with freezer paper. So the differences are the temps in work area, mine was probably 70 degrees. And I don't have a fan.

Edited January 22, 2012 by MoonShadow

[TallTayl]

Do you have a thinner mold, such as a slab? Slab molds always end up much cooler with the larger surface area available to lose the heat. Or individual molds. Or a PVC pipe mold. At least when a PVC mold overheats you only see cracking in the very end.