Does melt pool temp have anything to do with scent throw

[Ravens]

What type of wax are you using for the containers?

Hi, thanks for advice. At the moment I am just using a simple glass jar, with a 3 inch top, it doesn't taper in or anything, just straight. Wicks we seem to have here are wedo lx, paper core and cotton core. I have all 3 of these and so far have tried the paper core and cotton core. I was told that the wedo wicks don't perform well with large amounts of fragrance and also that I should only use a cored wick in containers?

[Joannec]

I am using candle shack pro c container paraffin wax, you prob don't get it in the US. I buy it from 4candles uk xx

[Ravens]

Not familiar with it at all, I'm afraid. Does the store where you buy it from have a website? And if not, is this a paraffin blend or do you need to add extras? What's its MP? No IGI waxes available?

I am using candle shack pro c container paraffin wax, you prob don't get it in the US. I buy it from 4candles uk xx

[Joannec]

Website is www.4candles.co.uk

Melt point is 40-44 c. No I can not get igi waxes in the UK, I have searched the web and can find nothing

[chuck_35550]

A good candle has got to have two great components: cold throw (open jar smell) and hot throw (fragrance fills room(s) and this is best accomplished with high quality fragrance oil that has been tested for a specific type of wax. You get what you pay for in fragrance oils (IMHO) and the higher quality oils usually are more complex and may require different wicking to get the most bang for your buck. You are not going to burn off your fragrance oil at a higher temp you'll just get a deeper melt pool. Make sure you stir your wax enough and start with a 6% load and go from there. Melts/tarts are a different animal but have the same need for quality fragrance oils. HTH

Steve

[chuck_35550]

Zinc wicks are the most commonly used for paraffin because they are the coolest burning and do not consume wax at a higher rate than others. LX are just fine for paraffin and some people like them in parasoy blends as well. I calculate that you are using a little over 8% fragrance oil and that should be enough to knock your socks off. Back off to 6% and see what happens. Youtube is a good resource for uk chandlers and soapmakers. Get on a local board or chatroom and find out what others in your area recommend. HTH

Steve

[jeanie353]

You are not going to burn off your fragrance oil at a higher temp you'll just get a deeper melt pool. Make sure you stir your wax enough and start with a 6% load and go from there.

Steve...I am using about 80% CC FOs. On about 5 of them, I've found using Eco wicks I get a very light ST. On one, I decided to try a CD and it threw like crazy. Have not tried the other light ones with CD.

I was assuming the Eco wicks were burning it off or burning too hot for those FOs. Reading what you stated in that we won't burn FO off at a higher temp...Do you have any idea what could be causing that? The FOs definitely throw...just not with Eco in my wax blend. They run from bakery to coffee to pine so it isn't like the delicate FOs doing it.

This is driving me crazy...I'm also having problems with a lot of FOs from other very good suppliers such as Peak, CS and MW with my wax and Eco wicks to the point I'm trying tons of different parasoy and paraffin blends. They will throw but I cannot get the burn I had with the Eco/CBL130 combo no matter what wicks I'm trying.

I should add I am using between .5 oz pp to .8 oz pp on CC FOs and 1 oz pp to 1.5 oz pp on the other supplier FOs.

TIA

Edited December 17, 2011 by jeanie353

[Stella1952]

You are not going to burn off your fragrance oil at a higher temp you'll just get a deeper melt pool

I disagree. A significantly hotter or cooler wick will affect HT, either because the MP isn't warm enough or the volatile aromatic chemicals vaporize and are burned off before they can throw - the depth of the MP has no bearing on this. The temperature for both phenomena vary depending on the chemicals involved. Some have a wider range of tolerance than others.

[CaftCandles]

I disagree. A significantly hotter or cooler wick will affect HT, either because the MP isn't warm enough or the volatile aromatic chemicals vaporize and are burned off before they can throw - the depth of the MP has no bearing on this. The temperature for both phenomena vary depending on the chemicals involved. Some have a wider range of tolerance than others.

I agree with Stella! I am no expert at wicking candles (yet) but I have been doing some specific testing to figure out on a scientific level, what causes HT and how the candle flame can in one instance enhance it and kill it in another. My test results are not yet complete but this is what I've learned so far. The temp and size of the MP is very important, depth of the MP has like Stella noted, has nothing to do with it, it's all about surface area and temp. FOs will release their volatille chemicals (fragrant molecules) best at or above certain temps (depending the FO) but without any air flow they will just linger around the candle. To get the fragrance to spread you will need some type of air flow which is where the wick comes into play. The wick by burning creates a convection of air over the MP which will carry the fragrance molecules up and into the air spreading and mixing them throught the room. Sounds easy but not so fast, if the flame is too small the MP may not get hot enough to release the molecules and there will not be enough air current to lift the fragrance from the MP or if the flame is too hot it will vaporize the fragrance molecules then there will be NO HT. The wax and certain additives can also aid or destroy the HT as well as over mixing or adding you FO to melted wax to early (allowing to cook).

I know I will probably get my hand slapped for the "over mixing" part but IMO it is possible just like when in baking a cake or bread. I know some of you have heard or know of someone that bakes the "BEST" whatever cakes or breads and even with the same recipe no one can reproduce them. It is all about the timing and care involved and not so much the ingredients. If you overwork bread or a cake batter the result will be a tough and semi bland dough, this is because the excessive mixing caused a longer and more complex string of molecules to form strengthening the fibers of the dough, toughening it and holding in the flavors. I BELIEVE the same thing can happen with the FOs in wax, if over blended the wax can lock in the FOs and reduce or kill the HT.

Either way it is a very delicate balance between several factors and the trick is to find a good marriage between the wick, wax, FO and technique that will create a flame that will release the fragrance without vaporizing it and will create a good air flow to carry them.

As I said, I am not done will testing all of these theories yet so I don't complete data to support everything but I'm working on it. Stella, I would like your opinion and of course, your criticism if needed.

[Stella1952]

I'm sure there's a lot of technical data out there in the industry regarding this and if people take the time to search, they will find information. As for the "overcooking" and long molecule chains and stuff, I have to say I am not very well schooled in chemistry so I don't know enough about long and short chain molecules to comment. One has to know something before they can explain it and molecular chemistry is NOT my forte!! Learning about polymorphism in veggie oils has been tough enough for me! I wish I knew more about the structure and properties of fragrance oils, but I don't, so I have nothing authoritative to contribute to your theory one way or the other. I do remember from practical chemistry in college that long chain polymers are the result of kneading bread, etc. but how that might apply to fragrance oils is beyond my scope. I do understand that heat, UV light and oxidation are major causes of FO breakdown and degradation if that helps.

Keep on researching and let us know what you learn. There is a huge fragrance industry out there that already knows this stuff, but for those of us who have difficulty in locating understandable information or who have poor backgrounds in chemistry, we'll just have to struggle along and reinvent the wheel as we can.

[rjdaines]

Posts #34 and #35 make sense to me. The over-mixing and binding theory is interesting and, like Stella, I have not data to either support or refute. My simple way of looking at it is that is the wax releases the FO by heating (no wick) and doesn't when you burn the candle, then the wick and burn are the problem not the wax (maybe the container in some cases). Optimizing with wick then seems like the best avenue to pursue.

[jeanie353]

Posts #34 and #35 make sense to me. The over-mixing and binding theory is interesting and, like Stella, I have not data to either support or refute. My simple way of looking at it is that is the wax releases the FO by heating (no wick) and doesn't when you burn the candle, then the wick and burn are the problem not the wax (maybe the container in some cases). Optimizing with wick then seems like the best avenue to pursue.

rjdaines....Yep, if I put those not throwing on a candle warmer, they throw so that puts me back at the Eco wick only working on certain FOs, I guess. Just cannot get a nice burn from other wicks.

I don't know about posts #34 and #35 as they seem to generally lean toward cooking or leaving FO in for longer periods of time or higher heat. That doesn't pertain to my regular wax or my regular technique.

I am adding FO at 180-185, stirring for 1-2 minutes using a Presto, into the pour pot and into the containers. I use a parasoy and am also trying out different paraffin/parasoy blends to attempt to get around this problem so I can get a good HT and burn together from more suppliers/FOs.

Edited December 17, 2011 by jeanie353
additional info

[Stella1952]

I don't know about posts #34 and #35 as they seem to generally lean toward cooking or leaving FO in for longer periods of time or higher heat... I am adding FO at 180-185, stirring for 1-2 minutes using a Presto, into the pour pot and into the containers.

Sounds very normal to me. I don't "cook" FO in wax nor leave it in for a "prolonged period of time." My experience is that diminishes the potential hot throw for all the waxes I use. I think post #34 and #35 are agreeing that "overcoooking" diminishes potential hot throw.

[chuck_35550]

Are scented candles safe?

Yes. When a candle burns, the wax is drawn into the wick, where it is "consumed" by the candle flame to produce water vapor and carbon dioxide. The only difference with a scented candle is that a small amount of fragrance is released as well.

Reputable candle manufacturers use only fragrances that are approved for burning in candles. They also carefully monitor the addition of fragrance to ensure that the candle will burn cleanly and properly.

That is from the National Candle folks. Fragrance oil does not burn off it is released into the air as vapor and the melt pool only functions as the mechanism by which the wick is able to draw the liquid wax. Combustion is the best way to put these molecules into the surrounding air and then are drawn off by air currents in the house. Melts use larger percentages of fragrance oil in a medium that has been designed to release the molecules without the aid of a flame but rely on air currents to distribute the fragrance through the room or house. Fragrance oil that has been cut with additives is diluted and therefore weak in cold or hot throw, because the additives do not contain fragrance. The whole system relies on the ability of the fragrance oil to blend not bind with a medium that it has been tested and designed for optimum results. So "burned off" makes no sense in the face of how fragrances are produced through combustion. Zinc wicks are cooler and the rate of consumption means a longer candle life while still providing sufficient combustion without using lead which was released into the air as well. This wax blend may have too many additives and then would require testing with different wicks and fragrance oils, which will require time and money.

Edited December 17, 2011 by chuck_35550

[rjdaines]

So "burned off" makes no sense in the face of how fragrances are produced through combustion. .

What does this mean? If you mean that the fragrance comes out of the flame of the candle, I seriously doubt that but I have been known to be wrong. From what I have seen a high ROC wick may produce less HT because it consumes wax (and FO) faster than an low ROC wick and a good MP doesn't develop. The scent is release thru the MP not the flame which is just the heating agent.

[jeanie353]

I'm getting this has to have something to do with the wic because when I take the Eco out (which has given little HT), put in a CD I get great HT. Yet the Eco wick has given a MP like it should have during the time it has burned. Meaning, if I let it burn long about 4 hours on the 3rd burn I will have a full MP in the 3 5/8" jar.

The CD that is size compatible produces about the same size MP at the same rate but it does not melt down evenly. Also produces a very unstable flame. Yet gives a strong ST.

This is on some FOs from varied manufacturers this is happening...all quality as I think I listed a few posts above. Also seeing I can get ST through a different wick, I would think that eliminates the FO as the culprit along with the wax.

My thought is the higher heat of the Eco wick is burning the fragrance out of the MP that was developed through burning. The CD wick is not.

Does that make any logic sense? I can't come up with anything else.

[CaftCandles]

I'm sure there's a lot of technical data out there in the industry regarding this and if people take the time to search, they will find information. As for the "overcooking" and long molecule chains and stuff, I have to say I am not very well schooled in chemistry so I don't know enough about long and short chain molecules to comment. One has to know something before they can explain it and molecular chemistry is NOT my forte!! Learning about polymorphism in veggie oils has been tough enough for me! I wish I knew more about the structure and properties of fragrance oils, but I don't, so I have nothing authoritative to contribute to your theory one way or the other. I do remember from practical chemistry in college that long chain polymers are the result of kneading bread, etc. but how that might apply to fragrance oils is beyond my scope. I do understand that heat, UV light and oxidation are major causes of FO breakdown and degradation if that helps.

Keep on researching and let us know what you learn. There is a huge fragrance industry out there that already knows this stuff, but for those of us who have difficulty in locating understandable information or who have poor backgrounds in chemistry, we'll just have to struggle along and reinvent the wheel as we can.

Yep! Well, I have never been accused of being a Chemist or a Scientist for that matter. As far as what I wrote about the long chain molecules locking in FOs is what I am theorizing about and it will be some time before I can prove or disprove anything about it. It was the other parts that I was asking your input on, Sorry I should have explained a little better, I've never been accused of being a writer either, lol.

One of the first investments I made when I started candle making was a variable tempreature wax tart warmer (http://www.tartburners.com/vahecawatabu.html) so I could adjust the temp. slowly too see at what temps you could get the optimum fragrance throw. One of the people I have testing for me uses a Shitsy plug-in warmer and she would not get ANY throw using my wax melts so I had to do some testing. Her warmer gets extreamly hot and would kill the throw in any wax that had a low melting temp so I reformulated to compensate and now with that same little warmer she is able to fill a large open area of her home with fragrance which is what lead me to do more research on the MP temp. By testing this way I can adjust the temp from 110 degrees to 210 degrees and hold it at whatever temp I want (respectivly) for observation and to determine how long they will last. I found that they work best in the 160 to 170 range and will last for 8-10 hours for most FOs and longer for others, but when the temp is raised above 180 the lasting time will plummet.

I've had melts that would normally last for 8 plus hours, that at 190 to 210 degrees would only last for about 2 hours which is why I know "cooking" or adding FOs at too high of a temp will dramitically effect the final product. All data that I've managed to acquire from FO Manufacturers recommend to add FOs just before pouring so as not to cook it off.

FOs to my knowledge share a lot of the same qualities of wax when melted and I know from years of working around oil and chemicals that to blend to liquids together easily they must have a Specific Gravity that is similar like wax and FOs. If the SG differs greatly then other means will be required, but in the case of wax and FOs, a little gentle stirring is more than sufficient so that makes me question, why would someone want to put a lot of effort in blending something that doesn't require it? Cooking oil or Crude Oil has a range of Specific Gravity that spans from 0.60 to 0.85 which is much lighter than water which is why oil floats on water. To blend those two you would have to do one of many other methods and would need an additive to keep them from separating. Because wax and FOs SG are so close they will bend with little effort and remain blended if you stop stirring.

Ok! Thats enough for now! lol

[jeanie353]

rjdaines and chuck....if you could refer back to my post above #42 where I was replying to both of you regarding the MP vs wick dilemma. Thank You

[chuck_35550]

The original question was whether the melt pool affects the throw of a paraffin wax candle. I don't know what kind of wax you are using jeanie353 but the two wicks are constructed differently. A cd self-trims and because of the way the threads are woven it tends to lean in one direction and this often causes the melt pool to be uneven and flickering or flame dancing may be the result of a draft or inefficient fuel consumption (clogging). The eco is constructed especially for veggie wax and resists corrosion. I suspect that everyone adds their fo into the wax and stirs for several minutes and then pours. Pouring at 185 or 190 degrees is not going to burn off the fragrance oil. But back to the original question....no the melt pool does not effect the throw of your wick it may add some fragrance into the air but the principle way is through combustion. That's why one wick gives you better throw than another; because it burns the wax mixture more efficiently. IMHO I totally agree in temp making a difference in a melt and that the higher temp would lower the life of the melt but remember you are using a higher percentage of fo in that setup.

Edited December 18, 2011 by chuck_35550

[jeanie353]

The original question was whether the melt pool affects the throw of a paraffin wax candle. I don't know what kind of wax you are using jeanie353 but the two wicks are constructed differently. A cd self-trims and because of the way the threads are woven it tends to lean in one direction and this often causes the melt pool to be uneven and flickering or flame dancing may be the result of a draft or inefficient fuel consumption (clogging). The eco is constructed especially for veggie wax and resists corrosion. I suspect that everyone adds their fo into the wax and stirs for several minutes and then pours. Pouring at 185 or 190 degrees is not going to burn off the fragrance oil. But back to the original question....no the melt pool does not effect the throw of your wick it may add some fragrance into the air but the principle way is through combustion. That's why one wick gives you better throw than another; because it burns the wax mixture more efficiently. IMHO

Right...I'm with ya in that the original question was whether the MP affects the throw of a paraffin wax candle. My question came along, you replied, rjdaines replied and now we are replying to replies with a few in between. I am using a parasoy of 50/50 and testing paraffin. I thought I posted that a few replies above but may not have....sorry.

Supplier CW recommends wick (Eco) as 2nd choice in CBL130.

Also working with 4630

Knowing where the problem lies can help direct which way to go. Losing ST in the wick tells me to lose the wick. Losing ST in the MP tells me to either up the FO load or lose the wick.

The wick giving the best ST is CD but has an unacceptable burn.

Thank you for replying and giving your opinion in that ST is lost through the wick. Not MP.

Edited December 18, 2011 by jeanie353

[CaftCandles]

The original question was whether the melt pool affects the throw of a paraffin wax candle.

....no the melt pool does not effect the throw of your wick it may add some fragrance into the air but the principle way is through combustion. That's why one wick gives you better throw than another; because it burns the wax mixture more efficiently.

Everything stated earlier was per the original question.

If you don't care to believe what was talked about then maybe you will believe it from a MORE RELIABLE SOURCE.

"The aroma from a lighted scented candle is released through the evaporation of the fragrance from the hot wax pool and from the solid candle itself." taken from the "NATIONAL CANDLE ASSOC."

http://www.candles.org/elements_fragrance.html

[Stella1952]

Hot throw in paraffin candles happens in the same way as it does in any wax, from soy to palm, to beeswax to bayberry. There is nothing unique about paraffin in the discussion of temperature of MP affecting HT of the candle.

The greatest throw from a candle comes from the MP, NOT from the wick. The widest MP will have the greatest potential for HT because of its surface area where the volatile aromatic compounds are released into the air.

The wick is what heats the MP to the temp at which it can begin releasing the aromatic oils to the air. A melter is similar except it doesn't use a flame to heat its MP - it uses an electric coil, heat-producing incandescent light bulb or a tealight heating it from underneath. The heated volatile compounds in the oil begin to vaporize at certain temps, depending on the chemical. A wick whose flame is too hot will heat the MP to a temp where the FO is vaporizing and IS, in fact, burning off, similar to a flare on an oil platform. This is the "flash point" where the VOCs vaporize, mix with oxygen and can then ignite in the presence of a source of ignition (that would be the flame on the wick). If there is no flame, there is no ignition. If there is no oxygen, there is no ignition. If there is no vapor, there is no ignition. If any of those aspects are absent, the fuel will not burn. It will not continue to burn if one of those aspects is removed from the event.

Excessive or prolonged heat also chemically degrades the FO and causes the more fragile components to oxidize and break down as well. This is why we store FOs tightly closed, away from light (UV) and heat. The short life span of melts proves this easily. Nothing is burned or combusted in a melter because there is no source of ignition, so what happened to the FO? It vaporized as the melter "cooked" it and the aromatic VOCs were released from the wax, carried upward and out by the convection currents produced by the heat. The wax still remains, but most of the FO doesn't. This is not caused by burning (combustion), but by degradation and vaporization due to the excessive and/or prolonged heat. A melter that is too hot will degrade the oil quickly due to the high temperature causing chemical changes, evaporation, vaporization, oxidation, etc.. "Cooking" the FO into the wax before pouring will also degrade the oil because of prolonged exposure to hot temps which allow some of the VOCs to undergo chemical and physical changes. We're not talking a few minutes here - we're talking about sustained heat for 15-30 minutes or more. If a candle is remelted then repoured, the HT diminishes somewhat because of the prolonged heating of the FO contained in the wax.

FOs are designed to work in temps exceeding the ideal MP temp because of the range of waxes in which they are used. Palm wax, for example, is poured at temps between 185°F-205°F. The wax is heated to that point, the FO is added, the FO is stirred into the wax for at least a couple of minutes because the specific gravity of FOs is NOT generally the same as wax and some oils take a lot more effort to blend into the wax than do others. This is what people mean when they talk about "heavy oils." Voodoo love is an example - this stuff is colored, thick and heavy. If you just poured it into the wax and doodled it around with a bamboo skewer for a few moments, you can actually SEE the trails of FO layered through the wax. It must be stirred thoroughly to get the FO completely blended into the wax. Most FOs have solvent properties, which is how they clean up dye messes so effectively. This is also how they "bind" with the wax... they don't really bind so much as dissolve into it. Insufficient stirring may not have a direct effect on the potential HT, but it DOES have an effect on the way the wick burns because some areas of the wax will have more FO than other areas and this will cause a kink in the smooth delivery of the capillary action which draws the liquid fuel up to the wick where the flame can then combust it. This inconsistency in the liquid fuel mixture delivery can cause flame sputtering, dancing, puffs of smoke, etc., as surely as water in your gasoline will cause the combustion in your car's engine to sputter and spew. When the wick isn't burning efficiently, it usually does not put out as much heat as it would if it was working correctly.

The materials and braiding of different wicks affect how efficiently that wick draws up the liquid fuel and distributes it for the flame to combust. Differing grades and types of cotton, synthetic fibers (dacron), fiberglas, paper, hemp, etc are all fibers comonly used in making wicks and each has different properties. Some are long fibers; others are relatively short. Some materials and construction are better uited for some types of liquid wax fuel more than others.

CDs, and the treated version, CDNs are excellent choices for viscous, slightly acidic waxes such as soy & palm wax because of the materials used, the way they are constructed, how efficiently they draw up liquid fuel, how resistant they are to clogging (they are coreless), and their stance (self trimming).

MANY wicks will work in soy wax - some more efficiently than others. If the mixture is blended well, and the wick can draw up the liquid fuels at the proper steady rate, the wick will do its thing more efficiently. It's entirely possible for a wick to burn the wax with reasonable efficiency, yet not maintain the MP at a temp high or low enough for it to throw the FO well. Since MOST of the aromatic VOCs are released from the surface of the MP, the wick's ability to maintain the correct MP temperature for a particular wax and FO is critical. HTH :smiley2:

For more reading, these links have been posted several times. Reading them will help you to understand combustion and scent throw in candles.

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/combustion_drawings.php

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/vegetable_wax_combustion.php

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/burn_issues.php

First quote from the link above:

The Burn Pool The burn pool serves two main functions for a candle. It provides the liquid fuel required by the flame and it regulates the "scent throw."

That the MP governs scent throw is NOT "opinion" - it is a scientific, verified FACT.

This next page covers "wicks 101" from start to finish.

http://www.heinzverhaegh.com/id79.html

Edited December 18, 2011 by Stella1952

[jeanie353]

Ugh! My head hurts....No problems here wicking palm. No problem with paraffin pillars.

Only the containers.......Stella..you saw the pics from the CD burns when I realized all this. Not acceptable burn correct? MP great. Eco...MP great and burn great.

So, it is possible the Eco is burning too hot and pulling the scent out of the MP where the CD is not as hot thus not pulling from MP?

Edited December 18, 2011 by jeanie353

[Stella1952]

Jeanie I don't remember what you are talking about, but if you'll throw me a link, I'll take a look. If you are not testing palm or paraffin, then you must be testing soy or parasoy. I can't help with parasoy because it contains paraffin and I know nothing about paraffin. I DO know about soy. The CD wick is a very popular wick for soy because it works so doggoned well in most soy waxes. If one was giving you problems, bump up the thread where that conversation was taking place and I'll be glad to take another look. I do not know what you mean by "not acceptable burn"... If the ECO is WORKING for you, I don't understand why you are concerned about the CD... In fact, I don't understand your question much at all...

Edited December 18, 2011 by Stella1952

[jeanie353]

Jeanie I don't remember what you are talking about, but if you'll throw me a link, I'll take a look. If you are not testing palm or paraffin, then you must be testing soy or parasoy. I can't help with parasoy because it contains paraffin and I know nothing about paraffin. I DO know about soy. The CD wick is a very popular wick for soy because it works so doggoned well in most soy waxes. If one was giving you problems, bump up the thread where that conversation was taking place and I'll be glad to take another look. I do not know what you mean by "not acceptable burn"... If the ECO is WORKING for you, I don't understand why you are concerned about the CD... In fact, I don't understand your question much at all...

Ya, it was parasoy and you did help me with CD wicks. Had me go down from just a CD 10 & 12 to CD8 & up to 14. The burn was ugly. Leaving wax in places on the jar and the wicks were hopping around, laying on their sides, dancing like it was Mardi Gras.....But had awesome ST.

I haven't progressed past that point after testing all this time. I began having some FOs not throwing with the Eco. Put in a CD wick for "the heck of it" and it threw like crazy. Telling me something was going haywire with the Eco in some FOs. It has only gotten worse and I'm trying to figure out the problem to fix it.

Wick or MP help was the original question I posted. There seemed to be some confusion for a bit. Now it seems to be MP majority. I have a MP on both....so my question is can a too hot of wick pull the fragrance right out of the MP even though that wick is burning properly in every other way? On the other hand, a wick burning inefficiently...not pull the fragrance out of the MP thus giving a better ST to the candle.

Hopefully, I explained it better this time so you understand the question, where it began on the thread and the CD help with the parasoy. If not, I may start drinking so I can explain myself right :tiptoe:

Edited December 18, 2011 by jeanie353
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