Curious about GW435 and cottonseed oil

[jonsie]

While reading up on the Golden Brands website and learning about all their waxes, it caught my attention that the only other oil mentioned on the page besides soy was cotton. Which I assume is cottonseed oil.

So now I am slightly obsessed with playing around with cottonseed oil. Problem is, here in Perth, the smallest amount I can buy off the shelf is 20 liters. For a smaller, more manageable amount I'll need to wait a bit for a local distributor to get some in. If I get really desperate I could probably beg a fish 'n chips stand for some, and... then I remember I simply don't know if it is worth the trouble.

I'm happy to do my own leg work and test it myself, but while I'm waiting I thought I'd check with y'all. I've seen some threads here about cottonseed oil and GW435, but I didn't quite get a good feel for the wax.

I've pretty much only used GW464 along with an assortment of additives and veggie oils and waxes to improve its smoothness post-burn, and I'm currently not satified with my results.

For those who have used GW435, how do your candles look after a burn? Does it look like brains and cauliflower, or is it fairly smooth?

Is it best to pour at low temps?

Any performance comparisons with GW464? (HT, ROC, frosting, etc)

Thanks,

Susan

[Sharon in KY]

About 10 years ago when GF/GB and a few candle makers started using their shortening for candles. They only had 402, 415 and 416. I tested them all along with Eco wax, the only ones I knew of at the time. I started using 415 and was OK with it since soy was the way I was going. 415 had cotton seed oil in it at the time, then a couple of years cotton seed's price went up and they took it out. When the price was right they added it again but called it 435 and kept the 415 all soy, cause some really liked it. I went back to 435 and have stayed with it but not without problems. Also I can pick up my wax so delivery is not in my cost . I have bought and tested many soy and soy blends but they all have some kind of problem. 435 usually doesn't look like a brain after burning, more like flaky, but does puff up if the candle is sitting in a warm sunny window. It gets lots of frosting if not poured at the right temp. I pour either hot or cool no in between. Into a cool jar works best for me . 435 is not a perfect wax, I poured hot last night and they look great, but it doesn't work all the time. All soy is a pain....IMHO

Cotton Seed is a very hard brittle wax all by itself.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Sharon in KY
Sorry for the rambling..

[HorseScentS]

I keep reading about all this expensive testing you all have to do, & it's very daunting! & discouraging in terms of cost. Can't I just follow the directions on Candlescience & get good results? I thought the whole purpose of that wonderful website was that they do all the testing so the chandlers don't have to, unless they want to, of course.

[Wessex]

I keep reading about all this expensive testing you all have to do, & it's very daunting! & discouraging in terms of cost. Can't I just follow the directions on Candlescience & get good results? I thought the whole purpose of that wonderful website was that they do all the testing so the chandlers don't have to, unless they want to, of course.

Get ready for the firestorm. Testing is NOT an option, it has to be done as there are many variables (even including temperature and humidity in different parts of the country) . Not to discourage you, but I have spent thousands on testing. If you are making candles for yourself, all the testing is not really needed, as you are basically testing as you burn your own candles. But if you want to sell, testing is not an option. Website information is a good starting point, but many people will tell you that the info is sometimes way off.

Cheers,

Steve

[HorseScentS]

You've spent "THOUSANDS" on testing, Wessex??? OMG. How can you ever make a profit??? The profit margin on candles & tarts, etc, is just not that high.

I can see doing a certain amount of testing, but "THOUSANDS"??? Wow! Is everybody doing that?

[Pam W]

You've spent "THOUSANDS" on testing, Wessex??? OMG. How can you ever make a profit??? The profit margin on candles & tarts, etc, is just not that high.

I can see doing a certain amount of testing, but "THOUSANDS"??? Wow! Is everybody doing that?

Anyone that cares about their reputation as a Chandler.

I don't even let friends take candles unless I've done some initial testing first. I only make pillars which can be extreme fire hazards if not properly wicked.

[LanaH]

I've used 435 (or soy with cottonseed) for several years. I always pour just when the wax starts to cloud. Hardly ever get any frosting and candles look pretty good after burning. I get an occasional cauliflower top, I think that depends on the scent. But for the most part, candles are pretty smooth after burning.

[jonsie]

435 usually doesn't look like a brain after burning, more like flaky, but does puff up if the candle is sitting in a warm sunny window. It gets lots of frosting if not poured at the right temp. I pour either hot or cool no in between. Into a cool jar works best for me . 435 is not a perfect wax, I poured hot last night and they look great, but it doesn't work all the time. All soy is a pain....IMHO

Cotton Seed is a very hard brittle wax all by itself.

Great info, Sharon! Thanks. My local supplier doesn't stock it so I doubt I would pay to have it shipped, even from within Oz.

I get the flaky look too, but generally it looks like someone got sick in the candle. And thanks for the heads up on the puffing... I haven't seen that yet, but I have left my 464 in a window yet either... may try that today!

I keep reading about all this expensive testing you all have to do, & it's very daunting! & discouraging in terms of cost. Can't I just follow the directions on Candlescience & get good results?

Not to discourage you, but I have spent thousands on testing. If you are making candles for yourself, all the testing is not really needed, as you are basically testing as you burn your own candles. But if you want to sell, testing is not an option.

Steve answered it best. If you plan to make a consistent and reliable product and you expect people to pay you for it, then you will need to spend some time and money on working on it. Depending on your goal, you may not need to spend thousands of dollars, especially if you only focus on one type of container or pillar, and one type of wax. Which is what I am doing now... GW464 in Status Jars with wooden wicks. It's all I do for now.

You've spent "THOUSANDS" on testing, Wessex??? OMG. How can you ever make a profit??? The profit margin on candles & tarts, etc, is just not that high.

I can see doing a certain amount of testing, but "THOUSANDS"??? Wow! Is everybody doing that?

Before you get discouraged, keep in mind our goals may be different from yours. I am at the point where I have a candle that functions safely and consistently, and I do sell them. However, I want to take it to the next step and improve the aesthetics of it... reduce some frost, reduce the crevices in the candle post-burn, and cut down on the time heat-gunning the tops. Other chandlers aren't as neurotic as I am and don't find this to be a big deal. I wish I could be like that, because I don't think my customers really care. It is a challenging problem to solve, and I like a challenge.

You see, I LOVE to test and research different additives, waxes, oils, etc, and I am blessed to be in a position to afford to do it. My husband is probably grateful that we are in one of the most isolated cities on earth, forcing me to think twice before paying to have something shipped over since I can't always run out and buy it. Anyway, all of that to say, the paths some of us have chosen with the extensive testing and investing do not have to be your path. If you plan on selling, start with a simple goal of one wax and one candle type to minimize your costs. But to make a sellable product, testing is a must.

I've used 435 (or soy with cottonseed) for several years. I always pour just when the wax starts to cloud. Hardly ever get any frosting and candles look pretty good after burning. I get an occasional cauliflower top, I think that depends on the scent. But for the most part, candles are pretty smooth after burning.

Thanks Lana!

Sooooo... has anyone tested with any of the cottonseed? Does it come in different forms? Is it always solid, or have you seen it in a liquid?

Edited February 17, 2011 by jonsie

[HorseScentS]

If you plan to make a consistent and reliable product and you expect people to pay you for it, then you will need to spend some time and money on working on it. Depending on your goal, you may not need to spend thousands of dollars, especially if you only focus on one type of container or pillar, and one type of wax. Which is what I am doing now... GW464 in Status Jars with wooden wicks. It's all I do for now.

Before you get discouraged, keep in mind our goals may be different from yours.

jonsie: Thanks for putting it in perspective for me! Whew!

For my rural area, I'll start small & keep it simple, like 8 oz primitive jars, so the testing won't be so overwhelming.

[IwantItgreen]

Horsescents, believe me, it does take a lot of money if you want to sell. You'll do well to test 1 jar and one wax to start. Exercise restraint when wanting to buy FO's from all the different suppliers. Stick with one or two and test their FO's first to save on shipping $. That's my last $.02!

[RichardLOZ]

You've spent "THOUSANDS" on testing, Wessex??? OMG. How can you ever make a profit??? The profit margin on candles & tarts, etc, is just not that high.

I can see doing a certain amount of testing, but "THOUSANDS"??? Wow! Is everybody doing that?

As Wessex stated, testing is not an option at all of you are looking to sell. Even if you are only in a small rural area, if you plan to sell, then you also need to plan to test.

I estimate that we invested in excess of $5000 prior to selling our first candle. Now some years later, the testing is still going on. Each time we introduce a new jar or new scent or even a new wax, the testing process has to be done for each new component, wax, wick, colour, container, FO. It really is an ongoing process.

Sometime testing can cost you more than your expect, especially if you are stubborn like me

I was determined to get glass glow palm working in a 4" diameter apothecary jar and went through an entire box of wax, along with FO & colour before deciding that it just wasnt going to work the way I wanted it to, so changed container.

If you start with only one jar and just a few oils to get a fell for it all, then testing is not going to be such an expensive option for you. It will definitely also be less frustrating.

Good luck with it, and above all have fun and enjoy.

[HorseScentS]

Horsescents, believe me, it does take a lot of money if you want to sell. You'll do well to test 1 jar and one wax to start. Exercise restraint when wanting to buy FO's from all the different suppliers. Stick with one or two and test their FO's first to save on shipping $. That's my last $.02!

Thanks! I'll stick to Candlescience bc I love their wick guide, FO ratings, & reviews.

[HorseScentS]

Even if you are only in a small rural area, if you plan to sell, then you also need to plan to test.

I estimate that we invested in excess of $5000 prior to selling our first candle. Now some years later, the testing is still going on. Each time we introduce a new jar or new scent or even a new wax, the testing process has to be done for each new component, wax, wick, colour, container, FO. It really is an ongoing process.

Sometime testing can cost you more than your expect, especially if you are stubborn like me

I was determined to get glass glow palm working in a 4" diameter apothecary jar and went through an entire box of wax, along with FO & colour before deciding that it just wasnt going to work the way I wanted it to, so changed container.

YIKES!!! $5,000 in testing before selling ONE candle???? But why does Candlescience say this? wouldn't this cut down on so much time & money?:

"Imagine things differently...easily finding a soy wax or paraffin candle wax that is a proven winner... finding candle jars that are both safe and beautiful... finally getting candle fragrance oils that are true to life and super strong... finding fragrance oils that perform in soy wax... discovering a wick guide that suggests a wick for your specific candle...

The secret to candle making is purchasing products that have been developed to work together. Life is simpler when you are not the one who's forced to uncover the chemistry of your candle. Life is more fun when you get to focus on things like fragrance and containers."

[Sharon in KY]

[quote name=

"Imagine things differently...easily finding a soy wax or paraffin candle wax that is a proven winner... finding candle jars that are both safe and beautiful... finally getting candle fragrance oils that are true to life and super strong... finding fragrance oils that perform in soy wax... discovering a wick guide that suggests a wick for your specific candle...

The secret to candle making is purchasing products that have been developed to work together. Life is simpler when you are not the one who's forced to uncover the chemistry of your candle. Life is more fun when you get to focus on things like fragrance and containers."

In my dreams....I really wish this was true for me. Just because someone says it's so doesn't mean it's what I want.

[Stella1952]

I keep reading about all this expensive testing you all have to do, & it's very daunting! & discouraging in terms of cost. Can't I just follow the directions on Candlescience & get good results? I thought the whole purpose of that wonderful website was that they do all the testing so the chandlers don't have to, unless they want to, of course.

One size does NOT fit all. Each candle is different. A candle is not just wax but it's a system where the container, wax, additives, wicking, FOs and dyes all have to work together. Manufacturing of ingredients is not an exact science. Each new batch of wax should be tested because there can be differences from batch to batch. Buying by the case allows one to have a lot number so that if you have issues, you have a point of reference to discuss with the supplier and manufacturer. FOs are reformulated regularly and each new batch should be tested to ensure that it's the same as the previous one. The same FO from a different supplier can be vastly different. Suppliers also change their sources sometimes, and that can make a big difference. Wicks can vary from batch to batch, especially if purchased from different suppliers.

I can see doing a certain amount of testing, but "THOUSANDS"??? Wow! Is everybody doing that?

As Pam W. succinctly stated: "Anyone that cares about their reputation as a Chandler."

Product testing is an imperative. I NEVER consider it a "waste" of money. It's an investment and insurance that I am producing the best candles that I can for my customers.

Testing never ends regardless of how narrow a line of products you offer. It's far more cost effective to perform due diligence in testing rather than make a bunch of candles "ASS-U-MEing" that the results will be identical to the last batch you poured. Letting an inferior batch onto the market is a great way to get a bad reputation with your customers for selling products that are inconsistent in quality.

As for why Candlescience and others make the claims that they do on their sites: caveat emptor, darlin'. They are in the business of selling products to you. There are many good suppliers whose product lines exceed the ones offered by Candlescience both in number, quality and pricing. Their line of FOs is narrow compared to those offered by other sources. Candlescience is a good company, but they are not the ONLY good company out there nor is their information always the best. The supplier who sponsors this site, Peak Candle Supplies, is a fantastic resource in the candle supply and information business ya know.

The secret to candle making is purchasing products that have been developed to work together. Life is simpler when you are not the one who's forced to uncover the chemistry of your candle. Life is more fun when you get to focus on things like fragrance and containers

Oh barf. Sounds like an advertisement for a Betty Crocker cake mix for cryin' out loud... Hype is hype no matter the good intentions of the author.

My best suggestion is for you to read, read, read - not only in the forums here, but on supplier and manufacturer's sites. You will find a wide range of opinions to help you discover what works best for you.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Stella1952

[IwantItgreen]

Thanks! I'll stick to Candlescience bc I love their wick guide, FO ratings, & reviews.

Candle Science is a great company but... I know a gal that started making candles when she saw me at my nieces home with some. She thought if I could do it, she could to. So the next time I see her (6 weeks later) she pulls a bunch of wax samples out of her purse and is showing all the lady friends there what candle scents she's already selling . So I ask her what wax she's using, she didn't know, "4 something"! (464 no doubt), so I asked where she got if from and she told me Candle Science. Oh I said, so what jars do you use and she told me whatever she could find at goodwill and etc.:rolleyes2 I asked her one more question, so what type of wick are you using? She replied, "I don't know... It comes on a roll... It's whatever Candle Science told me to use." :shocked2:!

So you see, even tho' CS is a great supplier, YOU have to do your own testing. They are only a guide, not gospel. Ex. for 464 they recommend Eco wicks, which may work fine, but the consensus here is that CD's work better in soy.

Some FO are lighter and require a smaller wick, some are heavier and you may need to wick up on those. You won't know tho' until you try.

My advice is, if you want to preserve you savings account, turn around and run as fast as you can! Sometimes I wish I would have. But I thought I could do it cheaper, NOT! I could burn Yankee's day & night compared to what I have invested so far.

I enjoy my hobby, (hobbies are expensive you know ) and I enjoy the candles I create, but if I did it for money, I'd feel pressured and all the fun would be gone.

I'm not trying to discourage you, only trying to be realistic. (My teens don't like it when I do that to them, but my older daughters appreciate some experiential insite.) Just saying, have fun with your hobby!

[HorseScentS]

LOL Thanks you guys! Now I understand perfectly! LOL This is terrible news to me, but at least you made it hilariously funny! I guess I'm not wealthy enough to start making candles. Darn! I feel so driven to do it, but I'd rather spend the money on something else. RATS!!! I saw the CUTEST new "Collection Elite" Ball jars today! They ROCK! I wanted to use them.

[Pam W]

As Pam W. succinctly stated: "Anyone that cares about their reputation as a Chandler."

I had to look up that word.......I learn more from this forum than just candlemaking

[IwantItgreen]

I saw the CUTEST new "Collection Elite" Ball jars today! They ROCK! I wanted to use them.

Those jars would be a bugger to wick, but they'd make awesome wickless jars! If you already have some wax and FO, pour a couple and try them!

[HorseScentS]

Those jars would be a bugger to wick, but they'd make awesome wickless jars! If you already have some wax and FO, pour a couple and try them!

That's a great idea! I didn't buy wax & FO yet, thank God.

[islandgirl]

415 had cotton seed oil in it at the time, then a couple of years cotton seed's price went up and they took it out.

OMG I remember that. I was using EZ at the time and a newbie not realizing EZ Soy was 415...LOL

I remember BC listing the EZ Soy with the Cottenseed oil listed in the wax description!!

[leenabug]

I have used several hundred pounds of 435 and 464 both.

464= LOVE the way you can pour hot (140 to 155), seems to pour up smoother .........HOWEVER it seems to be picky about finding FO's that have a good HT in it. (I seem to use bigger wicks)

435= HATED having to wait until cool (110) to pour, had alot of trouble with frosting and rough tops. HOWEVER, if you let the candles cure for a week, even up to a month, almost any FO from any supplier would have a HT . Yes it varied from soft to strong but rarely did I get one that wouldnt do anything. (I seems to use smaller wicks)

WIth 464 alot of scents I cant get to throw at all. But when I did find a FO that worked with it..........how easy and fast to pour one up and it looked great!

Results= I have no ideal which one I like better! lol!

[jonsie]

I have used several hundred pounds of 435 and 464 both.

464= LOVE the way you can pour hot (140 to 155), seems to pour up smoother .........HOWEVER it seems to be picky about finding FO's that have a good HT in it. (I seem to use bigger wicks)

435= HATED having to wait until cool (110) to pour, had alot of trouble with frosting and rough tops. HOWEVER, if you let the candles cure for a week, even up to a month, almost any FO from any supplier would have a HT . Yes it varied from soft to strong but rarely did I get one that wouldnt do anything. (I seems to use smaller wicks)

WIth 464 alot of scents I cant get to throw at all. But when I did find a FO that worked with it..........how easy and fast to pour one up and it looked great!

Results= I have no ideal which one I like better! lol!

That is wonderful information! Thank you so much.

It is way too expensive for me to get 435 over here, but I've ordered some cottonseed additive from Candle Soylutions. It can't get here soon enough!