How much hang up do you allow?

[amyrose2712]

I am trying to decide just how much hang up is acceptable. I have noticed that I like when the wax is about .75-1.0" above the wick at about 1/16-1/8" thickness. It makes a nice glow, as opposed to when the wax is completely gone and you can see the full flame. But what I am wondering is what do more people prefer?

I am having a difficult time describing this, I hope someone understands, lol Thanks!

[Stella1952]

While you may enjoy the luminary effect of a candle which has tunneled, this is not desirable to most people. The amount of wax being wasted is too much. Most people prefer that their candles consume completely except for the last half inch or so at the end of the candle. There should be no hangup on the container by then. Some waxes may leave a thin residue, but not hangup. As far as when the hangup disappears (catches up), different waxes have different properties.

What kind of wax? Do you mean "hangup" at the end of the candle, the beginning or the middle? If a candle has achieved FMP (full melt pool) generally there is little hangup. During the first or second burn of soy wax candles, it's not unusual for the candle to not quite have achieved FMP. But by the 3rd test burn, FMP should be happening.

In the case of palm wax, the wax typically "tunnels" but the hangup "catches up" as the candle burns past the halfway point. By the end, there should be little, if any, residual hangup.

The idea is to get a complete burn without the container heating up to a point where it is too hot to handle. This is where testing comes in.

A photo would be helpful in illustrating your question. It sounds like your candles may be underwicked, but without more information, it's hard to say... HTH

[amyrose2712]

While you may enjoy the luminary effect of a candle which has tunneled, this is not desirable to most people. The amount of wax being wasted is too much. Most people prefer that their candles consume completely except for the last half inch or so at the end of the candle. There should be no hangup on the container by then. Some waxes may leave a thin residue, but not hangup. As far as when the hangup disappears (catches up), different waxes have different properties.

What kind of wax? Do you mean "hangup" at the end of the candle, the beginning or the middle? If a candle has achieved FMP (full melt pool) generally there is little hangup. During the first or second burn of soy wax candles, it's not unusual for the candle to not quite have achieved FMP. But by the 3rd test burn, FMP should be happening.

In the case of palm wax, the wax typically "tunnels" but the hangup "catches up" as the candle burns past the halfway point. By the end, there should be little, if any, residual hangup.

The idea is to get a complete burn without the container heating up to a point where it is too hot to handle. This is where testing comes in.

A photo would be helpful in illustrating your question. It sounds like your candles may be underwicked, but without more information, it's hard to say... HTH

I may be exaggerating the amount of hangup. By the time the candle reaches the bottom most of the wax is gone. I will try to send a pic of a number of different candles. I'm not so sure that they are under wicked. If the wax is completely gone by the middle of the candle(complete MP the entire diameter) then, too me it seems that the flame is usually too big and makes the glass a little warmer than I like.

I dont know maybe you are right. These are pretty big jars.

[Stella1952]

When you post your pics, please tell us what wax, how much FO, any additives/amts., wick type/size and inside diameter of the container. The more info you can provide, the better the advice people can give.

[amyrose2712]

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/tmtcbBYVc8qHPs5FZG3ME02GLfaNCV2I1gR_VU-KK9A?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1FslVN8aONcotstEs7xxUk2GLfaNCV2I1gR_VU-KK9A?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/U1UozHvC-tk4sUqBnI0MDE2GLfaNCV2I1gR_VU-KK9A?feat=directlink

I don't like how messy they look after burning either. If I am under wicking, I will have to learn to double wick these or try another line of wicks. TEST!TEST!TESTE

I am using:

Ecosoya Advanced- 16 oz apothecary with a 4" diameter-Reddig-Glo Dye chips- 6%-10% FO Load

Pour Temp- 115-125F

Room Temp- 68-70 F

Anything else you need to know please let me know. Also I still am not sure how to adjust for temperature changes overnight . We set the thermostat on 66 at night. Usually I like to keep the house around 70-74 for candle making, but I just cant do that in the winter. I don't know if I should pour hotter. I seem to be getting more frosting and air bubbles, that cause sinking in these temps. Thanks for all your help. I think I read something you wrote before (wonderful Stella) about the wax catching up and sliding down. Basically that is the effect I was wanting to achieve with the luminary glow then when the flame gets lower and there is a larger area for heat, then the wax that was "hanging up" slides down and disappears. I hope you are understanding what I am attempting to explain. I am so very bad at expressing myself.

Edited January 23, 2011 by amyrose2712
Add more info

[mindy5140]

I would be really ticked off If I bought a candle and it had that much hang up..

Just because you like it doesn't mean your customers would, I Guarantee that you wouldn't have repeat business.

That is called tunneling, you need to wick up or doub wick it. Keep testing please

[amyrose2712]

I would be really ticked off If I bought a candle and it had that much hang up..

Just because you like it doesn't mean your customers would, I Guarantee that you wouldn't have repeat business.

That is called tunneling, you need to wick up or doub wick it. Keep testing please

Wow. Snippy. That is why I was asking. I thought that it may be a bit too much. I am still testing. But thanks for the input. Most of my candles so far DON'T have any hangup. Only these. Oye.

[beans]

I agree with Mindy. Keep working at it. It takes alot of time but you'll get it.

[mindy5140]

Wow. Snippy. That is why I was asking. I thought that it may be a bit too much. I am still testing. But thanks for the input. Most of my candles so far DON'T have any hangup. Only these. Oye.

If you thought that was snippy, then thank goodness I didn't post what I orginally was going to, lol..

You asked what others prefer and I prefer not to have half of my candle wax on the sides of the Jar, it's not pretty, and it screams unprofessional.

I was hoping that you said you were still testing, that's great.

So wick up or double wick because many of had trouble wicking that style jar.

Good Luck and Test, Test, Test

[Stella1952]

OK, OK. Enough sniping. This is how we learn.

Ecosoya Advanced- 16 oz apothecary with a 4" diameter-Reddig-Glo Dye chips- 6%-10% FO Load

One thing you left out, Amy Rose - the wick type/size. Please fill us in on that.

Right away I see a few things that may be causing trouble...

Problem #1

The diameter of your jars is gonna be a bitch because when one gets much over 3", single wicking can become problematic. I prefer to single wick myself with a big 'un, but many folks would double wick that diameter container.

Problem #2

There is a lot of difference between a 6% FO load and a 10% in terms of burn performance. Try sticking to as little FO as you can for several reasons: the stuff is expensive; the more you use, the more difficulty you may experience with appearance and with burn efficiency. Understand that CBA is known to be problematic with hot throw in many FOs. You can up the percentage until the cows come home, but CBA has issues with scent throw. You may want to try Excel...

The appearance is unusual for CBA which is usually has a lovely appearance. I think the combination of underwicking and too much FO may be causing the CBA to look like it has a hangover. The yellow candle looks pretty smooth, as one would expect from CBA, but the others look a little rugged. It's obvious that the wick just isn't producing enough heat for the sides to catch up. If you stick with that size container, you are going to have to wick up or double wick. I would suggest first trying a single CDN 20-22 to see if that'll cut the mustard. If not, then back off on the size and double wick or change to a container with a smaller diameter. Another problem with wicking 4" diameter containers is finding a supplier who carries the larger sizes of CDs and/or CDNs (I dunno about other wick types 'cause I don't use 'em). Most suppliers don't carry the full range of sizes which makes wicking very small and very large containers a PITA.

When you are burning the candles, how long are you burning them at a session? If you are burning for under 4 hours at a time, this may be contributing to the tunneling.

You are not getting good jar adhesion, but that may be a function of the room temp. Be sure you are cleaning your glassware before pouring (HOT water and Dawn dishwashing liquid, HOT rinse and air-dry upside down). Here's the link to the NGI website's instructions for pouring CBA: http://www.ngiwax.com/products/usingecosoya/cbadvancedsoyinstructions.html

Hope some of this helps you resolve your issues. Keep testing - you'll get it right - it just takes time, studying, testing and some damage to your last nerve.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Stella1952

[amyrose2712]

@Stella- Thank you for your help. I always start with 6%. And it is only these few FO that I am having trouble with. I was getting excellent adhesion in the warmer months but since the weather changed. I am using LX 26 and HTP 1212. Also, I have tried the Excel and I just hated the look. I really like the CBA. So far the only problem I am having is the hangup and adhesion. The HT is AWESOME. But I will try upping the wicks. And lowering the load. The reason I had that range is because I had a number of different scents. But I always start at 6%. I am also thinking the adhesion problems are from dirty glass. Thanks again for the help. Here is how they usually look before burning.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/krdYvrgPBWQdOqgSI_Vnp02GLfaNCV2I1gR_VU-KK9A?feat=directlink

Is the FO load causing the mushrooming? This is a LX 26 with 9%.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qukhrNT-XJIJdTIDyh4gtU2GLfaNCV2I1gR_VU-KK9A?feat=directlink

And believe me I am testing and testing and will continue testing.

[amyrose2712]

If you thought that was snippy, then thank goodness I didn't post what I orginally was going to, lol..

You asked what others prefer and I prefer not to have half of my candle wax on the sides of the Jar, it's not pretty, and it screams unprofessional.

I was hoping that you said you were still testing, that's great.

So wick up or double wick because many of had trouble wicking that style jar.

Good Luck and Test, Test, Test

Yea! Thanks for going easy on me, then. But ANYWAY, I did ask for opinions. I was very hesitant to post these pics because I didnt like how they looked. Hence the need to ask the question. What I said I liked was the luminary effect that comes from the flame behind the wax. I HATE the messy way the wax stay on the jar. Again, why I asked. But, seriously, thanks for at least responding. But I take even constructive criticism to heart cause I am kind of a baby. :embarasse*hiding*But I am glad I ask here because the BF keeps saying "would you sell them already" and I am like "But I am still TESTING!"

[Stella1952]

Amy Rose, hope you checked out the NGI link I gave you - you'll find answers to many of your questions right there. Note the wicks they recommend. CBA just doesn't work with MANY FOs. You will have to check their list of FOs that work with it and then see if your suppliers stock FOs from their approved list. Now me? I wouldn't use a wax that was so proprietary and I don't agree with everything NGI writes (especially all the hyped up green crap), but, hey - it's their product, sooooo... :rolleyes2

Adhesion can be a problem in winter months. If I remember CBA is supposed to contract from the glass to prevent "wet" spots while Excel is supposed to stick to it... or maybe the other way around. At any rate, whichever way it is, extreme temps cause trouble with jar adhesion in most waxes, so this should level out as the weather moderates.

Don't listen to your BF. Many newbs are pressured to sell before their products are ready for market and there's nothing worse for all of us. Let him know that you need product liability insurance BEFORE you even start gifting them to others to test for you.

If you really like the luminary effect, after you get your soy wax dialed in, you might wanna try Glass Glow palm wax for more fun and adventures in wicking frustration!

[EricofAZ]

I was looking at the two wicks.

LX 26 ROC = .32 and Flame = 2.4"

HTP 1212 ROC =.30 and Flame 2.3"

I would guess that the LX has less hang because it is a slightly larger flame. I don't know if HTP comes in a size above 1212 but the LX does.

For me, I don't want that much hang. I do want a little because it helps keep the glass temperature down. I don't like superheated glass and large MP's.

For me, the LX doesn't work well because it seems to have a tall but narrow diameter flame and lots of soot.

The Eco's have a wider flame diameter and less soot for the paraffins that I use and I seem to get by with a pretty small wick in that series. I use an Eco 1 for a 2 3/4 diameter container and for a 3.5 inch I found the Eco 6 or 8 are close (I need to order Eco 7). For the 3.5 in Palm, an Eco 14 tunnels, so the wax selection is obviously very important.

[Stella1952]

LX 26 ROC = .32 and Flame = 2.4"

HTP 1212 ROC =.30 and Flame 2.3"

I would guess that the LX has less hang because it is a slightly larger flame. I don't know if HTP comes in a size above 1212 but the LX does.

This is not a good use of wicking tables. Most are based on paraffin wax, not soy. At best, they are approximations to give one a ball-park idea. If you are fond of tables and data, you really have to develop your own through testing your own candles - and those would only be accurate for YOUR candle system. Adding FOs and dyes change the wick performance, so there is no way to tell if the OP's candle would have the flame heights you mentioned.

I do want a little because it helps keep the glass temperature down. I don't like superheated glass and large MP's.

That's a false choice - it really isn't one or the other. By using the correct wick style/size, you can have complete consumption and not overheat the glass. When the wick is properly "dialed in," the heat generated as the candle burns down is retained inside the container and causes the hangup to soften and weep into the melt pool (like a palm wax container candle) without super heating the glass. There is absolutely nothing wrong and everything right with a FMP by the second or third burn.

For the 3.5 in Palm, an Eco 14 tunnels

Pretty much EVERYTHING tunnels in palm wax because palm wax tunnels by nature! It's only during the last half of a container that one sees a palm wax candle "catch up."

Edited January 25, 2011 by Stella1952

[chuck_35550]

I think you would be happy with double wick in a 4" diameter container. You either have to use a large flame or stumble on a perfect configuration that will not remain consistent IMHO. A candle shouldn't be red hot to the touch but hang up isn't going to go away without sufficient heat production. Try a double wick and see if things aren't easier but be prepared that some customers don't like double wicks. HTH

Steve

[amyrose2712]

Thank you to all that answered. I am still working on this. And will continue to test. Believe me, I am one that believes strongly in testing and retesting and being able to produce repeatable results. My educational background is in Environmental Science therefore I have spent quite a bit of time in the lab. I could test forever, its the fun part for me.

I have read the NGI page before but I looked at it again and saw a few things that may help. It does say to try to encourage the CBA to pull away from the glass. How do I encourage this? I have been doing everything to stop it. Again, the HT is excellent, so I'm not quite sure what to do. I have tried the ECO-135, Exel, and GB464 and thought that the HT and appearance of the CBA, so I am not sure what to change. Also, I have tried a number of different wicks, mostly following CandleScience's wick recs as a starting point. Also, that is where I purchase most of my FO since they claim to test them in soy. Anyway, I suppose I will first try to wick up. I, like EricofAZ, was thinking that if the glass was clean it would get too hot. I have actually not experienced that except for the with the cheaper pressed apothecary jars. I now use different jars and that doesn't seem to be an issue. If up-wicking doesn't help I suppose the next step is trying a different type of wick again. I read this site everyday and learn something new every time. Thanks.

Edited January 25, 2011 by amyrose2712
made a mistake is quoting the wrong person...

[chuck_35550]

There are two ways to approach appearance in containers. One way is to go for total adhesion with no wet spots and the other is to have the wax totally pull away from the container wall. I personally don't care for the latter approach but in the end it's the customer who will dictate that issue. There are a few threads about single wicking 4" jars but I think you already know what you are up against. Good luck.

Steve

[EricofAZ]

Stella, of course it is a good use of the wick tables. It is merely a guide. Yeah, the MP and FH are highly variable depending on wax selection, additives, etc, etc.

I am assuming that the makers of the wick tables have used the same wax for each test, otherwise, yeah, its useless. It looks to me that they did use the same wax.

So if a wick performs differently for me, I might "guess" that the next one up or down on the table will also follow suit.

As for the palm tunneling, hehehe, here's another variable for you. One of the containers I use holds 16 oz wax and is wide round in the center. It really doesn't catch up well due to the shape. If it were straight on the side, I would agree that it would catch up with the right wick.

As for my choice to not have hot sides and a little hang that catches up, that's my choice. I don't care what you or anyone else thinks of it. It is a safe choice and I will strive to have containers that 1) don't overheat even on power burns, 2) do catch up and make a reasonable cleaning by the end, 3) don't soot, mushroom, leave black rims on the container, 4) have a good throw.

I believe I have that now. For me (the operative phrase), function over form is important. For a lot of folks here, form over function is their thing.

[Wessex]

Hello, Please check out my new business i've called Standles, its a beautiful, unique new way of candle, Standles are standing flat multi wick candle, while burning it create beautiful art effect, makes a unique center piece, check it out and tell me what you think.

I think you are a frickin SHILL and need to go away.

[pleasureridgecandles]

sorry to the op but wessex what the heck is a SHILL? I tried to find the abbreviations on here but all I can find is the supplier abbreviations. Just curious... took me awhile to figure out some of the abbreviations people use (none supplier related). I still haven't figured out if DH is dear husband/hubby or damn hubby???

[Wessex]

Shill doesn't really fit here, but I like the word. A shill is someone who acts like a happy customer or pumps up a sellers products without disclosing that they are the seller or associated with the seller. Like I said, not really the right use here, but ...

Cheers,

Steve

Apologies to the OP for the slight hijack.

[debratant]

I still haven't figured out if DH is dear husband/hubby or damn hubby???

Depends on the day really...on a good day...dear hubby...on a bad day...damn hubby...on a really bad day...well...you figure that one out

My apologies to Amyrose for the off topic too lol

[amyrose2712]

I think you are a frickin SHILL and need to go away.

No biggie, but I don't even see that posted anywhere?

[EricofAZ]

The Shill post was removed.