Need to get something off my chest

[ubure]

Hello,

my stomach aches because I have such trouble with a wholesale customer. It is a never ending story with this guy and today I have told him what the situation is all about.

Just to give you a short summary: last November this man contacted me. He said he'd order about 100.000 candles per year and if I had a portfolio so he could check back with my other customers to see how I am working. Also he wanted to have samples. Everything went smoothly and he gave me the job (it is a real, an honest company, that is for sure - no scam). I gave him an offer with prices based on these 100.000 candls as he said he'd order about 10.000 per month, maybe more, beginning in January.

First he wanted to have other samples of the candles I was supposed to make for them, with their own fragrance oils. This I did. After that he ordered candles about € 5000,- worth (all trading samples for his distributors etc.), telling me we had no time as trade shows were coming in January and February and we had to hurry up ordering waxes, glasses etc.. So I spent hours and hours looking for somebody who would supply m with thoses things between xmas and New Year. I was able to order wax for these first trading samples - but before I really ordered them I told him about the much higher price of the wax. It was okay for him and I sent him my invoice for the trading samples.

He paid in March!!! because he could do no show because of the packaging company who wasn't able to supply the packaging for his stuff. So we waited. I had made the candles but had kept them here with me as he only needed some of them (meanwhile he had enormously reduced his order!). I talked to him over and over again, that I had spent much more money because he was in such a hurry and then he had only paid for a part of the candles because he didn't need so many anymore.

Always the same result: he convinced me to go on, told me about the next trading shows in April....only he never did them, still waiting for the packaging.

Then I told him I could go on no longer (meanwhile I have real problems with invoices for stuff (HIS stuff) I still cannot pay because there are no orders from him). He the ordered more candles, telling me to send some of the already finished ones for the trading show he really did! Well,after the show he told me he found the scent was too weak (I did everything according to his specifications and the ones of the perfume manufacturer and he was pleased with those candles. NOW he wasn't anymore! he told me to put more FO in them, also he wanted to have a candle with two wicks (suddenly my wicks were too large and the wax burning to fast - before he insisted on a bigger wick in order to have a full melt pool very quickly. I always told him about how wicks work, how the wax works, the characteristics of our wax, how a candle has to be handled etc. He seem to understand and then he just ignored everything I told him).

So I melted down 800 glasses, cleaned the glasses and put them back in the boxes. I asked him about paying for the labour time and the wax we weren't able to use anymore - he told me he considered it as developing time and therefore he won't pay for this.

I just told him to wait for a notice from me.

Today I sent him this notice, telling him I won't accept not being paid for my work. Besides that I listed everything I had paid for before and haven't seen a cent for it so far (he obviously supposed that I'd buy equipment for him at my cost - worth € 600,-), together with the new prices for the candles, based on the actual order amount.

The result of my maths: I paid about € 3500,- for wax, equipment, labour etc., he paid about € 2100,- so far.

And he was bold enough to tell me he had paid for candles he never has seen so far!

I have all his glasses here, masses of fragrance oils, the wax (of which I have to return a lot because I cannot pay for it - bees wax!). I guess he will ask his lawyer or threaten me with legal action. I'm only tired of this guy. Have waited too long. If he goes to court I will as well.Only, he is in the UK - I guess this will be a difficult affair.

But the worst thing is that I have neglected my "real" business, my customers, only for this guy. Now I have to restart again, with actually no money to start with. Thank God I still have one good and loyal wholesale customer who does a fantastic job in advertising his new candle line! I really hope all his dreams and so mine as well become true soon.

Thanks for listening!

[Brenda (OH)]

Oh Inez - I feel for you. Sounds like you have had your hands full with this and will until this matter is resolved. I have no words of wisdom for you but here's a {{{ HUG }}} :awww:

[ubure]

Thanks, Brenda!:smiley2:

[botanica]

Poor girl! That's messy messy messy. Don't suppose you had any kind of a contract?

[islandgirl]

What a horrible situation you are in.. :undecided

Do you have an agreement in writing, I hope so. Sounds like it may be time to hire an attorney and found out your legal rights..

[gloworm]

Oh Inez,

So sorry to hear of the trouble this man has put you through. Hope it all straightens out for you.

Hugs,

Glo

[ubure]

Well, a good part of our communication was per email, so I have all his orders and reduced orders here on paper. Also, whenever I tried to discuss certain issues I did this in written form. He always called me afterwards, but this time I asked him to reply by email as well.

He is a very nice, understanding man, but meanwhile I suspect this is all cleverness - talking until I have agreed to his conditions again. Not anymore.

I've been stupid, simply bloody stupid.

But after all all those numbers don't lie, but I am not sure what chances I have at court. I guess you are right - I need to contact a lawyer.

[momtohaley2004]

Not sure how things will work in Germany but from someone who has been in a similar situation I will tell you that your first step is to contact your attorney. BUT, the attorney is going to ask for contracts and all written communciation you have with him particularly that pertaining to payment. If you have it in writing that he is to pay X amount by X time each month and you have communicated to him that he is behind and needs to pay up (in writing) then your lawyer can send him a demand letter demanding he pay you the balance to avoid any further legal action. I can tell you though that it will greatly depend on what he owes you if you want to consider this option as you probably know lawyers are expensive and for me it was almost 600 dollars just to get the letter sent and have contact made with the guy since the lawyer charged to write it up plus his time. So, you may want to consider if it's better for you to chalk it up as a loss too. NOT by any means telling you what to do but you should just at least call and ask an attorney cus maybe sending him a certified letter by mail will be sufficient.

[sockmonkey]

What grounds would he have to sue you? Were you responsible for the packaging? As far as I could gather from what you wrote, it looks like that could be the only basis he could have for a claim against you.

It appears as though you provided him with plenty of samples, so he knew exactly what he was getting. You proceeded to manufacture per his specifications and now he thinks somehow you're at fault for something? I don't get it.

My advice is not to wait for him to initiate any type of proceeding against you. He owes you money and you are out for several thousand dollars worth of supplies due to his failure to adhere to your agreement. You should immediately contact a lawyer to put a stop to his nonsense.

[ubure]

Hello again,

thank you all for your help!

No, I wasn't responsible for the packaging. The only reason he could sue me is that he has no products to present at the forthcoming trade shows in September.

The problem is he never felt responsible for what he did. Whenever I said: "Mr. x, I've ordered this amount fo wax exclusively for you, just because you said we need this by the beginning of January latest. Then you suddenly reduced your order without having paid for anything and then only paid for the reduced order.", he only answered "I'm not responsible for what your company orders or not." on the contrary he feels he did something benevolent when he paid me for the 800 glasses beforehand (which was par of the agreement - payment in advance).

I've made so many samples, as long as he liked the candles. This is okay, it is normal to do so. But now, after having made those 800 glasses he wants to have more fragrance in the candles, 2 wicks, and one of the candles should be changes completely, with a coat of structure building stearin in the glass, and the filled with palm wax.

The funny thing is: the candles don't smell strong enough because he simply ordered candles fragrance and didn't mention that the candles would be made out of vegetable waxes. So is this my problem??? No, but he thinks I remelt the glass candles, clean all the 800 tumblers and refill it for free!

No, the main problem is simply that he didn't keep his word once regarding order amounts, and therefore I cannot any longer offer the pricing I did when he ordered the first 4000 candles.

I will definitely keep all the supplies I have at hand from him as long as he hasn't paid his dues. The he can let them be fetched from here.

I'm not sure what woll become out of this all - and, momtohaley, you're right: a lawyer is expensive and I really have no money. But what can I do if he really sues me? Can he send the police to fetch his supplies before he has paid for it?

Can I say: this man hasn't maintained his original order amount and I've told him several times, and he always promised me to order soon more, and now, 7 months later I put a stop to it all because nothing happened?

Oh dear, what s....!

[Wick'n'Wax]

why did you not get payment up front for what you were buying? If I were ordering that much stuff I'd want payment up front for it. The 800 candles you made him, are you saying these were samples?, did he send them all back to you, or he just didn't want them after you'd made them?

[ubure]

When I ordered the wax he already had my invoice and promised to pay immediately. He urged me so much to start making the candles that everything went across. But it was a mistake not to wait for the money.

I am glad I didn't oder more then.

The 800 candlesI made were trading samples - no samples for him, but fnished, fine candles to distirbute to his distributors and future customers at the trade shows. He ordered these candles, paid for them (this was already a reduced order) and let these candles here with me in order to ship them to him as soon as he needed them. These were the same candles he had seen and tested before. And now, months after ordering he wants them to be changed in the way I described before. So this is in my eyes a new order, no further development of simple samples.

[cindym]

Inez, I really feel for you. I had a very large wholesale customer, she was on 30 days. Needless to say I always had to chase her for the money. I of course tried to talk to her about this, and did eventually get all of my money. She then turned around this year and emailed me for a very large order. I in turn emailed her and said I would be willing to do the order, half upfront and the other half upon delivery. I never heard from her again. Sorry I lost the customer but not sorry that I am not constantly on the phone after 4 months of waiting for payment. She was a very good customer for 4 years. Not worth it. Good Luck and try to stay positive. If you can let go and continue to enjoy what you do and try to grow your business again I think you will find peace with this issue. It won't be easy. cindy

[Circle]

If it were me, I would cut my losses and move on. Forget about the whole thing, he is not going to go to court knowing he has done wrong and if he does, you have to deal with it. My bet is you ignore it and he will ignore it and you will have to get on with life.

[ubure]

Yesterday after having read my eamil he tried to call me but I didn't answer the phone - I expressedly told him to react in written form.

My next step is to send an invoice for my so far unpaid services and equipment I've bought for him, plus shipping costs for returning the useless wax. If I don't do he only tries to persuade me out of it all.

I have this bad feeling since months and it would have been wiser to stop it all before. It is no use and he surely won't pay the prices I've given him yesterday.

I don't think he will ignore this, most probably he will make some trouble.

[momtohaley2004]

Yesterday after having read my eamil he tried to call me but I didn't answer the phone - I expressedly told him to react in written form.

My next step is to send an invoice for my so far unpaid services and equipment I've bought for him, plus shipping costs for returning the useless wax. If I don't do he only tries to persuade me out of it all.

I have this bad feeling since months and it would have been wiser to stop it all before. It is no use and he surely won't pay the prices I've given him yesterday.

I don't think he will ignore this, most probably he will make some trouble.

Make everything written!!! If you do send him an invoice...do it certified mail or better yet get a return receipt as well. I don't think he will take you to court but then if he does he can't say "she never gave me X and I don't know what to pay her." If you have everything in writing/email as you state about him agreeing to pay, etc then I wouldn't worry about him trying to take you to court particularly when it would be him in the wrong. and I agree with the above though too that it may just be best to cut your loss and move on. If you feel sending him the letter may work, then try that, but if it doesn't then I'd just move on and cut my losses. No use in wasting more time, money or energy on someone who isn't worth it. Best of luck!

[ubure]

You are probably right about cutting the loss. I'm willing to do if only I get rid of this man.

He hasn't reacted on my email yet, so I guess he's consulting a lawyer.

I'll send him the final invoice only to make sure I have something in my hands against him.

It really cost me a lot of nerves and now my liver is starting to rebel because of all the trouble.

I feel I have to start anew but at the moment I don't have any motivation to do so. I there weren't a lot of unpaid invoices I'd just give up.

[momtohaley2004]

You are probably right about cutting the loss. I'm willing to do if only I get rid of this man.

He hasn't reacted on my email yet, so I guess he's consulting a lawyer.

I'll send him the final invoice only to make sure I have something in my hands against him.

It really cost me a lot of nerves and now my liver is starting to rebel because of all the trouble.

I feel I have to start anew but at the moment I don't have any motivation to do so. I there weren't a lot of unpaid invoices I'd just give up.

I wouldn't worry about HIM contacting a lawyer. If he does he will look awful ignorant to take you to court when you have evidence that HE didn't follow through with his obligations either. Most likely...he doesn't want to pay and wants something for free and hopes he can string you along with him. A scare tactic type thing. Take it from me........it may take a long time to recoup your loss (I still am in a sense and it's been 8 months), BUT the relief of not having the person to deal with and worry about is much better than the burden of worrying about them.

[Candybee]

This whole thing sounds very fishy to me. Did you ever contact the company by phone and speak to a live person about this guy and his order?

I deal with contracts and licensing at work. You always get a contract in writing and signed and dated before proceeding. Plus, if it involves money you always get that upfront before you make or deliver any product. You also get the delivery fees and any fees associated with producing and delivering it written into the contract. He should have paid you for everything up front before you even made one candle for this guy.

My gut feeling is he is stringing you along trying to get candles cheap, making excuses, etc, ad nauseum. He may not even be with this company.