What are your opinions on wickless only?

[becky0404]

I'm having such a hard time getting my palm container candles to throw VERY well and I'm so frustrated that I'm thinking of just doing wickless. I don't sell yet, but eventually I would like to I think. My melts (using the same exact wax and fo load as my containers) throw so much better in my electric warmer that I'm thinking this may be the way to go.

What are your thoughts on making/selling wickless (clamshells or tarts too)only? I would obviously have to buy the warmers wholesale and sell those too along with the wickless. Do you think there is a market for this? For those of you that only sell wickless how are you doing? I don't intend to get rich off this obviously, but if I could eventually sell what I love to make that would be great, lol.

[grama]

If I did wickless I would use paraffin. The palm wax I use after it is heated up a couple times always looks ashy, I guess that would be a description. I have tried some tarts in the palm and after several times of heating and cooling I just don't like the looks of it. I make a few wickless and my sister and daughter in law like to burn them at work. But at home they prefer wicked.

[Darbla]

Most around me want a candle with a wick. People I know don't seem to have a candle warmer and they don't want to be put out the expense of one if I give them a wickless. A candle with a wick is just easier, I guess.

[Stella1952]

Palm wax is NOT a good choice for wickless "candles."

Read WaxMunky's experience toward the bottom...

http://www.candletech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62541&page=2

PLEASE think real hard before making wickless "candles" from palm wax!!

If your palm container candles are not throwing well for you, look first at the FOs and at the wicking. If you are getting good throw with your melts, I have to think the problem lies with your wicking.

I have been making some containers with Glass Glow and the FOs that are bigtime throwers in regular palm and soy are also working very well with this wax blend.

[becky0404]

Thank you stella. Actually, I don't make a "wickless" candle (and now I know not to with palm) I only have made clamshell tarts which work great with no problems so far.

I'm using CSN wicks from Candle Science, which I thought were supposed to be for palm/veggie waxes. I do get a great MP and I thought I had the wicking down, but maybe I don't. I guess I'll just have to keep plugging away at it .

[Stella1952]

I'm using CSN wicks from Candle Science, which I thought were supposed to be for palm/veggie waxes. I do get a great MP and I thought I had the wicking down, but maybe I don't. I guess I'll just have to keep plugging away at it

What size/shape container and which size wick are you using, Becky? I don't use CSNs, but others do and may be able to make suggestions to you about them.

[becky0404]

I use two sizes of Madison Jars. I am using the 8 oz ones with a diameter of 2 3/4" and I wick it with either a CSN 14 or 16 depending on the fo. When I burn, it does not initially burn like a soy/paraffin candle would. It does not give a complete melt pool until around the third burn or so. It will tunnel and then eventually catch up and melt the sides down. I'm pretty sure this is just how this wax is suppose to perform.

I also use the big 18 oz Madison jars that are tall. They have a diameter of 3". I have never been able to single wick them, so I double wick them with either a CSN 7 or CSN 9 (again, depending on the fo). Because I double wick, this creates a melt pool just like a soy or paraffin would. It will burn all the way across on the first burn. However, it does not get too hot or a too deep melt pool towards the bottom. (weird, I know :rolleyes2 ).

The fo's I've tried have mostly been from the candle source and berts (hit and miss with those so far). I have also tried a few known strong throwers from JS with pretty good luck. I do cure for at least a week too. I also think I need to get some candle testers.

I ordered some comfort blend and I am going to try to compare the two. Maybe it's not the wax at all, maybe it's just me:wink2: . I also am going to play around with adding some of the comfort blend to the palm to see what happens if the throw is good in just the comfort blend.

[Stella1952]

You may very well be suffering from the perils of candlenose. Or you may need to try different FOs from different suppliers. The burn on your smaller container sounds about right to me, offhand.

If you add another wax to the palm wax, I seriously doubt it will affect the scent throw, but it WILL affect the crystalization.

[HeavenScentU]

I am all for tarts and clamshells. As for wickless candles they are extremely hard to sell. I sold them at craft shows and had to explain to everyone and I did sell a few but after explaining to everyone it wasn't worth it to me.

[Candybee]

I am all for tarts and clamshells. As for wickless candles they are extremely hard to sell. I sold them at craft shows and had to explain to everyone and I did sell a few but after explaining to everyone it wasn't worth it to me.

I am getting the opposite. Several customers are asking me for wickless. I just got some jar samples to start testing in. I don't intend to carry very many but when customers begin asking at every show for a wickless I think its time for me to start working on one.

[sudsnwicks]

I am getting the opposite. Several customers are asking me for wickless.

It must be some kind of law: whatever it is you don't have, is what people are going to ask for.

Becky0404, I've come across some member sites where they only did wickless. I don't know how well they're faring, but I imagine it must be doable.

[ChaChing]

Hi there, I totally agree that palm wax probably won't make a good wickless. I have a customer who makes palm jar candles that actually burn great & throw scent like crazy. She sells the heck out of them, and they are PRETTY. She uses mostly HTP wicks, and 60-44-18 zinc wicks for a diameter 2-2.5", and double wicks anything larger than 2.75" with smaller HTP's. What is the name or # of your palm wax?

[littlebrownbug]

Hi Becky,

According to the wick guide on the CS site you should try the CSN 12's for that size of jar. That would be your starting point for the 2.75" diameter jar that you are using. I would try that and see how that works for your fo throw.

I use the CSN 9's for our 8oz. jj's and use the same wicks for our 10oz. and 16oz. apothecary jars....those we double wick because we have not found a wick that works for those sizes of jars as a single wick....HTH! Otherwise I would try the 800 series wicks from wick-it and see how those work for you.

Mike

[littlebrownbug]

It must be some kind of law: whatever it is you don't have, is what people are going to ask for.

Becky0404, I've come across some member sites where they only did wickless. I don't know how well they're faring, but I imagine it must be doable.

Wickless candles are doable but I sure wouldn't do it with palm wax....especially in a glass jar. They can shatter the glass and create a real mess. We put on our palm container warning lables not to use them on candle warmers for that very reason. (It has happened to one of our customers and that brought an immediate decision from us to not make wickless candles with palm wax.)

Mike

[bugtussle]

Other than the fact that wickless candles don't require much testing, I don't understand why you would want to carry a whole line of wickless candles. My customers buy my tins to burn or to use on a warmer. For a wickless, they just pull out the wick. Why not offer them just one product that can be used for both burning & for melting.

Also, there are absolutely no benefits making wickless out of soy or palm vs paraffin other than personal preferance. The slower, cleaner burn (as hyped about) of vegetable waxes disappears if you are only melting them. Carole

[Stella1952]

I'm sorry, but I don't like the term "wickless candle."

A candle has a wick.

A candle is engineered to be burned with a flaming wick from the top. Jars are heated from the bottom (unless one has one of those kool jar warmer lights). I am having a tough time imagining a "candle" that could be used for BOTH purposes efficiently and safely simply by pulling the wick!

Palm wax is a safety hazard for any glass jar application that heats from the bottom.

[Jane42]

Other than the fact that wickless candles don't require much testing, I don't understand why you would want to carry a whole line of wickless candles. My customers buy my tins to burn or to use on a warmer. For a wickless, they just pull out the wick. Why not offer them just one product that can be used for both burning & for melting.

The only reason I wouldn't want to suggest they use our wicked candle in our cachepot warmer is that I would be afraid that they would melt the candle one time, then light it as a candle the next time. Even though our wicks stay straight, even after an entire melt, some may become displaced (fall over), end up next to the jar and crack it when burned.

[bugtussle]

Jane, that's exactly why I suggest they pull the wick if they are using it as wickless. Then they won't be tempted to light it.

Quote "I am having a tough time imagining a "candle" that could be used for BOTH purposes efficiently and safely simply by pulling the wick!"

Stella, how would you make a wickless except to leave out the wick?? There is no efficiency or safety factor in melting it rather than burning it. If it burns good, has good hot/cold throw, it will do the same if you melt it on a warmer, at least that is the case with my candles. My customers have been using my tins on a warmer for yrs. They often buy my 11 oz tureens to put on a warmer. The tureens are shallow and do great on a warmer.

My point is, why make a wickless candle when you can make a regular candle & just pull the wick for a warmer.

Carole

[camoflauge]

here's my 2 cents worth... I'm fairly new to candlemaking (1 year in Oct.) and I have not had the time or $$ to test wicked candles. I started out with the wax dipped bears, lotions made from bases etc. and I did very well. After numerous requests for a "candle", I decided to do the "wickless" since I knew I didn't have the time or $$ to test wicks just yet. (yes, i did test the wickless before selling) Boy, did it go over well!! I'm just a small time gal selling at craft shows and to friends and family, but I have sold a lot.

Yes, there are the people who want the wicked just as there are those who want soy or parafin and nothing else. Around here people have been really excited about soy candles. From talking to a lot of candle users, I found out that a LOT of them around here take their "wicked" candles and put them on warmers. I love wicked candles, don't get me wrong. But, with a 3 year old and an 8 year old that are infatuated with fire, this is a safer alternative to me.

We all have our own personal opinions and I'm not going to try to force my opinion on anyone else. I guess I feel that candlewarmers would have never been invented or be able to be sold if they were that dangerous. In my opinion, they aren't any more dangerous than a candle with a wick. Like I said, that is my own opinion. I've been using candlewarmers for years-before i even decided to make candles-and I've used them both ways.

I do think that if you already make wicked candles and sell them, you could just tell them they could take the wicks out. Or, for safety reasons mentioned here, maybe you could make a special "line" of certain jars that can be used-the shorter the better it seems-the 8 oz. square masons and the small classic jars from BCN really work good.

:tiptoe:

[bugtussle]

Camoflage, you're right. If you don't have the time or resources to test until you've got the perfect wicked candle, just make wickless. I do think there is a market for them. I just think it would be foolish for me to come out with a special line of wickless candles. Since I've already done the tests, I can offer mine as wicked or as wickless. :yay: Carole

[Stella1952]

Stella, how would you make a wickless except to leave out the wick?? There is no efficiency or safety factor in melting it rather than burning it. If it burns good, has good hot/cold throw, it will do the same if you melt it on a warmer, at least that is the case with my candles.

Carole, I think you did not understand - a candle is defined as having a wick and a flame. A jar of wax is not a candle.

There are safety issues, depending on the kind and amount of wax used, the composition of the container and the wattage/temperature of the warmer. A glass container of palm wax is NOT safe on a warmer because the top stays hard and stuck to the sides of the container while the bottom is melting and expanding. Ask Wax Munky, Mike and others who have experienced a jar popping to validate this.

IF I were making a jar melt, I would use the lowest melting point wax I could find to ensure no cracking of the jar or spurting wax. I would not use the same wax for a container of wax designed to be melted as I would a container candle. I might also amp up the FO in a jar melt because I would not have to worry about wicking. I would not use a jar containing over 4-6 oz. of wax because molten wax can burn children and pets (more sensitive skin) and make one heckuva mess. As we have discussed here previously, warmers are NOT of a universal wattage nor temperature output, which can have a bearing on the safety of this product. The use of glass jars on warmers concerns me. Even canning jars are not intended for direct heat applications - only pyrex is manufactured for this purpose. JMO

[Jane42]

Jane, that's exactly why I suggest they pull the wick if they are using it as wickless. Then they won't be tempted to light it.

Good point! It is not very economical for us to stock the wickless. We made quite a few while we were testing new wicked scents. We would make two wicked to test, then a four wickless - it gave us a chance to get our colors down for a batch of 6 each. That left us with quite a few wickless. Fortunately for us, people are starting to recognize the benefits of them and they are starting to sell. At the craft shows last year, nobody knew what they were...this year, they really seem interested and have purchased the cachepot warmers from us to use rather than the plate warmers. We have plenty in stock, but if we add a new FO, we may make one...they are easy to do, so a special order does not take long. We just whip up a batch of five wicked an one wickless.

I just don't know if I TRUST people enough to pull the wicks out and never use it as a candle. If I were selling tins, as you are, that would definitetly be an option. At this point, we only use glass jars.

[bugtussle]

Stella, my wicked candles also fit your criteria for wickless. I use a very low melt point wax, I don't have to use more scent because my wicked candles contain just about max for my wax, (all of my wax products contain the same FO%,) I recommend 6 oz tins on warmers. True, the temp of warmers can vary, often getting too hot, but there is not much difference in a wickless tin and a handful of melts on a warmer.

I think a wickless candle is more than just a jar of wax, but I'm not sure if it could be classified as a candle. I'm saying my candles can become wickless if customer desires. Most of the time the wick just falls over into the wax when it is fully melted. If my customer wants to leave the wick in, it's OK. I just suggest it be pulled out. Carole

[Druin]

IF I were making a jar melt, I would use the lowest melting point wax I could find to ensure no cracking of the jar or spurting wax. I would not use the same wax for a container of wax designed to be melted as I would a container candle.

Stella...

May I ask for clarification on this comment? For years, I have melted candles on a plate warmer because I have a phobia of fire. (Yeah, I know - odd hobby for a fire-phobic!) Until getting into this hobby, I never knew of the differences in waxes, etc.

I typically make tarts and use a soy votive wax from a local supplier. My neice has requested more of her favorite scent. While I know I could just make her a dozen tarts (and I may just do that), I was curious if I could make her a single container of wax (a 5-6 oz "tart" as it were), but before trying, I am researching whether or not this can even be done safely with the wax I currently have or whether I will need to find a container wax instead.

Thank you so much for any clarification you can provide!!