topofmurrayhill Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Is it the general consensus that 100% soy waxes don't work as well as soy waxes in general? More often than not people seem to find some additive to make them work, so what's the point if you can buy a wax that's already preformulated to perform better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicky_CO Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I think the main point being you know exactly what is in it so you are more knowledgable about your own candles. Also how many times have we seen on here and other board where a manufaturer has changed the blend then everything you had tested is out the window because you have to start over. I personaly do it for that reason. But I am sure a few will come up with more reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 That's an interesting perspective that seems analogous to using straight paraffin and putting in your own additives versus a preformulated blend of paraffin and additives such as the ubiquitous J-223.However, with respect, it seems like a weak analogy to me. If you knew what petroleum feedstock your paraffin was refined from it wouldn't tell you anything. Whether you start with only soy oil or it has other vegetable oils in it, what you end up with is some percentage of stearic acid, some percentage of palmitic acid, and some percentage of whatever other substances the hydrogenation process creates.These percentages will vary based on the raw materials and how the hydrogenation process is controlled by the manufacturer. All that you know in the end about what's in your candle is that it's vegetable wax plus whatever you added to make it work right. If starting off with some cottonseed oil or whatever in the mix produces more optimal proportions of hydrogenation products, I don't think candlemakers are any less informed or in control, plus they benefit from a more useful product.I'm still leaning towards the conclusion that 100% soy wax is purely a marketing angle because "soy wax" has more cachet than "vegetable wax". I have noted the fact that in all of their product information, marketing copy, and research papers, IGI never refers to "soy wax" even though they've gotten into the business. I think they are just being real about it and not feeling the need to cater to trendiness. The point is just that it's vegetable wax regardless of what seeds you squeeze.I'm just throwing this out there as food for thought. I'm not even sure everyone would agree that 100% soy has more performance problems than soy-based wax in general, but it's my impression that this would be the consensus. If so, I would say it's hard to really justify producing it apart from marketing appeal. Of course, as candlemakers we can take advantage of this marketing angle by saying that our products are made from 100% soy wax, but only if we're satisfied with the way the unmodified product works. How many people are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bev Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Top, are you a chemistry major? I feel like I'm back in science class!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KristinesShower Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I personally use the 100% soy wax because it took months of testing before I could make it work right. A lot of candlemakers & soy suppliers I know won't touch 100% soy wax because they just couldn't make it work. I take a lot of pride in conquering a hard thing that is why I use 100% soy wax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobSue Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Here we go again.the process of adding Hydrogen to the soy does not change it into something besides soy. It is still soy.I think that people use straigt soy for many reasons. First, I think that early marketing ploys pushed people to believe that all soy was the only way to go. At the time it really was, but now people are getting better at making better vegetable based waxes. As candle makers we need to be aware of what is in the wax. If you market you candle as supporting the American farmer then you should know what is in it. I know that palm is not grown in America. Second, it is cheaper to buy straight soy. Once you start adding cotton and other vegetable waxes you will find the price starts to increase. You may have a better product, but it will cost more. Therefore, many people chose to use all soy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicky_CO Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Well just because you don't like my reason doesn't make it invalid. I have personal experience of why it is a very valid agruement. I started with a soy/botanicals I loved that blend that was made me fall in love with soy candles in the first place. But then a few years ago the soy wax industry lost the use of cottonseed they didn't bother about telling anyone. All the sudden things that had worked for us for so long was no longer working. Some of us had years worth of testing in to those blends and where then in trouble as our stuff was not working. I made the decision then to create my own blend. I have been happy with that decision that is why when the blends started showing up again about 6 months later I never went back to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 Here we go again. the process of adding Hydrogen to the soy does not change it into something besides soy. It is still soy.I don't understand what you're trying to say except that soy oil and soy wax are both derived from soybeans. That seems obvious.As candle makers we need to be aware of what is in the wax. If you market you candle as supporting the American farmer then you should know what is in it. I know that palm is not grown in America.True, some people respond to that slogan when it comes to soy wax in general, but I doubt there are very many who demand 100% soy in order to be satisfied on that count. Actually, most people who use 100% soy seem to add things to it. If you add stearic, so much for leaving palm trees out of the picture. If you add Universal Soy Wax Additive, so much for knowing what's in your candle. If you add paraffin, so much for your immortal soul, LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 I personally use the 100% soy wax because it took months of testing before I could make it work right. A lot of candlemakers & soy suppliers I know won't touch 100% soy wax because they just couldn't make it work. I take a lot of pride in conquering a hard thing that is why I use 100% soy wax.Now that all makes perfect sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 Well just because you don't like my reason doesn't make it invalid. I have personal experience of why it is a very valid agruement.I never liked or disliked your reason, but I understand it better now that you've elaborated. I think you're a bit exceptional in that regard though. Most people probably expect it to work out of the box. The consistency you require for your blend is founded on the availability of soybeans and also your trust in the manufacturer. Many people are dealing with manufacturers who can't maintain consistency of the 100% soy product, or who change formulations on a whim like EcoSoya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 OK I'm not a chemistry major but - sometimes the preference has nothing to do with the issues presented. The way the ? is possed made the answers respond that way. (Make sence?).Usually the issue is "pure soy" vs soy that may have a blend of other imported ingredients as palm. To put it another way all american vs using imports or petrolum products with it.Then I may be way off base with this because I use a reliable soy supplier that uses a reliable source and may be just plain lucky (for a change - LOL).FWIW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VickiB in CA Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Vicki_CO - I checked out your site. Your candles have beautiful vibrant colors. I am new to soy and am working with the Calsoy CB3 right now and had heard that straight soy only produced a pastel colored candle. How do you dye yours? Drops or flakes? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaybee23 Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 You can get nice dark colors in soy as well. I use liquid dyes in mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bev Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 You can get nice dark colors in soy as well. I use liquid dyes in mine.Same here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicky_CO Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Same here I have always been able to get rich dark colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Okay question. I hear alot of soy candlemakers in my area push Soy this and soy is healty this and healthy that. If they add chemicals such as stearic and other things to make soy "work" then it is not "pure soy" or "natural". It has chemical additives right? That is what I understood. Kinda the same way FO is added into it. EO would make it "natural" or organic, but FO does not. Clear me up here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 Okay question. I hear alot of soy candlemakers in my area push Soy this and soy is healty this and healthy that. If they add chemicals such as stearic and other things to make soy "work" then it is not "pure soy" or "natural". It has chemical additives right? That is what I understood. Kinda the same way FO is added into it. EO would make it "natural" or organic, but FO does not. Clear me up here Stearic is about is natural as the wax itself. In fact stearic is one of the things you get when you hydrogenate vegetable oil, so it's already in there. The extra that you add generally is made from palm. It's all about as natural as margarine so take that as you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tess Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Stearic is about is natural as the wax itself. In fact stearic is one of the things you get when you hydrogenate vegetable oil, so it's already in there. The extra that you add generally is made from palm. It's all about as natural as margarine so take that as you will.Okay what about FO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted October 19, 2005 Author Share Posted October 19, 2005 Okay what about FO?You're right, FO is synthetic. It's also the major cause of soot from candles besides overwicking (that varies a lot from one FO to another though).EO would be natural but not necessarily healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire and Ice Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I use 100% soy wax and I don't add anything to it but I combine several pure soys to make my soy blend. And I can get very nice rich colors with my wax. I have to because I hate pastel color in candles. I hate pastels period! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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