Relief Holes in Palm Container

[kw2703]

I have been getting those stupid air pockets in every jar candle I make, regardless or how/what temperature I pour at. I have also poked relief holes and just zapped the top with a heat gun, which I know takes away from the crystal-look to the wax. However, when I use the heat gun, I still have to poke relief holes 2 more times in order to fill the holes. By doing a re-pour instead of using the heat gun, will this require any more than one re-pour and poking relief holes? Or does it usually just require the one time and the air pockets are gone and do not come back? Also, when doing the re-pour, do I add more FO and dye? Thanks!

[Stella1952]

If you make a little more than you need, you will have extra for repours. The repour should not require a repour.

[SherriLynn]

KW,, I had the same problem with the palm wax... Much as I love the look of it I had to kick it to the curb. AFter 6 months of testing on and off, I gave the rest of my wax away as the candles were much too much trouble with relief holes, repours etc. With doing about 40 shows a year, plus fundraisers and 14 wholesale accounts, the time involved to make the candles look nice,ate up the profit margin. It could be that my particular area and weather conditions for pouring that wax, is just not a good mix. I've tried blending it with soy hoping that would help, but it didn't.

I was told the key with this wax is candles must be cooled very very slow. I tried covering with boxes, putting the candles in old coolers, turning up the heat in my house, even letting them set inside of a tad luke warm oven... Holes and airpockets everywhere, and yes repouring over the repours, using heat gun, etc.

There are some who make great looking candles with this wax,, maybe they can offer more ideas....good luck

[Stella1952]

I was told the key with this wax is candles must be cooled very very slow...Holes and airpockets everywhere

You were told correctly, but the pouring/cooling temp does not necessarily diminish the air pockets... If you allow them to cool very slowly, it'll take longer for you to see the air pockets!

When we make pillars, i don't just poke holes, I obliterate all but about 1/4" of the bottom outer edge of the candle to keep the bubbles moving to the surface. We have very little problem with them in pillars as a result. I usually do not have to do a repour because the wax fills in the hole(s) and after wicking, I'll just slide that ugly bottom over a griddle and it'll all be fine.

We find palm candles to be very trouble-free... Palm wax is just a horse of a different color. It doesn't perform like paraffin or soy wax in MANY ways, so if you have certain expectations, based on soy or paraffin experiences, your patience may not be long enough to be able to stand working with it. So much about it seems contrary... Nonetheless, I find them to be worth the extra effort, which isn't much when you get accustomed to the routine.

[kw2703]

Thank you for your help. I think just making the extra wax for the repour will save me a lot of time from zapping the top with the heat gun and doing the relief holes 3 times! We'll see how it goes this time. Thanks again.

[grama]

I use the palm wax from candlescience and don't have any trouble with air pockets and don't poke relief holes in the container wax, not necessary. I like working with the glass glow better than the frost. Tops finish off smooth and fine. On pillars I do not repour, when I level the bottoms off I put the shaved off wax back in the holes and little heat from gun and it's good to go.

[SherriLynn]

Glad to hear you've worked out a method Stella and are producing those darling candles. I love the feathered palm especially. it's so pretty...

Hmm.. I could have swore the person teaching the palm wax presentation class at a recent candle convention said that cooling as long as possible leaves the wax open on top to allow the air bubbles to escape..and tap, tap, tap those molds. I must have missed something there. Her candles came our perfectly just about every time, seldom an airpocket. I was soooo envious!!! LOL...

Our biggest concern were the large air pockets inside the candles. We cut apart and sectioned numerous palm candles only to find many of them full of airpockets. Which would explain why some burned great, and others tunneled terrifically even though same FO, same wick, poured at the same time. Since we've been known as a reputable chandler for 25 years with originally paraffin & cut and carve, now we only pour soy ,we didnt' want to produce candles that wouldn't burn properly everytime, so we kinda dumped the whole idea and expanded our line another way. After testing almost 100 pounds of wax,we thought it was time.

I make one of those trouble free candles like your palm, but in soy. I call it my Ron Popeil candle:grin2: , one pour, soybean/beeswax blend. Pour wax when it gets slightly slushy, set it, and forget it. No repours, no dips, nice smooth tops. Clip the wick. label and I'm done.. whoohooo... Don't ya just love it.. Nothing quicker and I can keep up with the higher volumes to keep my orders filled.

There are so many variables in this business and how supplies work in different areas, especialy with different humidity, elevation etc,,, it truely does keep one on their toes... :bliss:While on vacation we bought some handpoured candles in CO, and burned them in our vacation condo. They were absolutely wonderful,, only to find, they burned like torches here at home. Dang, must be the difference in elevation, just like baking at different temps in higher elevations.

Good luck KW... let us know how things go trying another method

[perkyaim99]

I haven’t tried palm yet, but wouldn’t the spoon method work for getting air bubbles out? What I mean by that is while you’re pouring your wax into the mold/container instead of pouring directly in, you pour the wax onto the back side of a spoon (over the mold of course), when the wax hit’s the spoon it pops the air bubbles out. This spoon technique is used for removing air from casting and mold making. Or do the bubbles happen as the wax is setting up, in which case this wouldn’t work.

On another note are these palm waxes? These waxes are

described as crystalline veggie wax, I don't think palms are veggies tho. If it is palm why don’t they just call it palm wax, it's confusing enough

deciding on wax!!!??

IGI 6010 & 6008 Crystalline Wax

Made from 100% vegetable derived waxes from totally renewable resources.

Strahl & Pitsch SP-486P

A 100% pure vegetable wax. Hard crystalline texture, exceptional mold release, excellent fragrance loading capacity. Votive blend, pillars of all types, tart pans, balls, pyramids, etc. DO: Use cotton HTP wicks, pour hot for best effect (175-185°F)

[Stella1952]

Ron Popeil candle

Now THAT'S worth a trademark!!:laugh2:

large air pockets inside the candles. We cut apart and sectioned numerous palm candles only to find many of them full of airpockets.

Yep. That's why we quit just poking and got medieval on the cavern formations. I haven't tested the Glass Glow Container wax yet (my first order just arrived yesterday) so I have no idea how it will behave! Its appearance is certainly noticeably different from the 2 palm waxes we have been playing with...

the person teaching the palm wax presentation class at a recent candle convention said that cooling as long as possible leaves the wax open on top to allow the air bubbles to escape..and tap, tap, tap those molds. I must have missed something there. Her candles came our perfectly just about every time, seldom an airpocket. I was soooo envious!!!

I agree - we have had the most consistant success with cooligng them in a warmed oven (turn off when the candles go in). We still have to mess up the tops because even in the warm oven, it skins over so quickly the bubbles can't escape - sometimes I can see them just under the surface like a bubble under ice. My oven rack is so shakey, I don't have to worry about agitating the molds!! :laugh2:

I think the more one plays with it, the better one's technique becomes. The lady teachin' that class has probably forgotten more about making palm wax candles than I will ever know! I think, like the art of baking bread, making homemade candy or the perfect Mile High Lemon Pie, the people who do it over and over and over develop a feel for their medium and learn how to control it. Folks like that make it look easy peasy!

You guys are longtime pros and know what you can put up with and what you can't. People who are not paying their mortgages with their candles can afford to mess around with this and that... I totally understand why y'all might not find this a cost effective product. It IS labor intensive, especially when one hasn't got it "dialed in"! They are fun to mess around with, though, and mighty pretty when the planets align.

[Stella1952]

IGI 6010 & 6008 Crystalline Wax

Made from 100% vegetable derived waxes from totally renewable resources.

PerkyAim, that is not the product that we use. We use the IGI R2778A. I emailed the IGI sales rep and asked if it was a 100% palm wax product (he emailed back that it is), since their product descriptions do not say much of anything other than "a palm wax suitable for use in votive and pillar candles." Just wanted to make sure before I bought more than a taste of the stuff.

I don't think they are using the term "veggie" as in green beans or broccoli... Palm wax is grouped as a "veggie" wax because it is not petroleum derived and is not made by bees and it comes from the oil contained in the fruit of the oil palm. Other veggie oils are cottonseed oil, soy oil, coconut oil, olive oil, canola oil, etc. So I assume a "veggie wax" means that it is made from a combination of different vegetable oils that they do not want to list individually. Veggie pot-luck!

You might be on to something with the spoon method, and I will give that a try, even though I have never seen any air bubbles going in... it seems to be something that is happening as the crystals form. It could certainly be micro-bubbles that slowly gather together into air pockets, caverns, etc. One palm wax manufacturer's site says the following:

"Needs constant stirring to remove air trap during crystallization. Aluminium moulds give best crystal formation. Other mould need tempering to obtain same results."

So there's another tidbit to put into the puzzle... somewhere...

SherriLynn, do you remember if that instructor was stirring her palm wax a lot? Maybe that's what she was doing so right...

[kandlekrazy]

I noticed something today that really never caught my attention before. I bought a plastic pitcher from the 99 cent store that has a great pour spout on it, so decided I would try it today (my arthritic hands are having a hard time with the 8 cup glass pitchers.) I have always used glass, oh in the very beginning I used that alum pour pot...which I hated! When I poured the candles today, there were tons of tiny tiny bubbles in the wax. I put some of the same melted wax into glass (to make a 2nd scent) and no tiny bubbles. Could it be the plastic attracting air bubbles into the wax? Bizzare!!

[Kay]

I have been getting those stupid air pockets in every jar candle I make, regardless or how/what temperature I pour at. I have also poked relief holes and just zapped the top with a heat gun, which I know takes away from the crystal-look to the wax. However, when I use the heat gun, I still have to poke relief holes 2 more times in order to fill the holes. By doing a re-pour instead of using the heat gun, will this require any more than one re-pour and poking relief holes? Or does it usually just require the one time and the air pockets are gone and do not come back? Also, when doing the re-pour, do I add more FO and dye? Thanks!

Thats why I started doing Everlasting Palm Pillars...Air bubbles or not...your not burning the candle so it doesnt matter. I was getting bad air bubbles & just gave up & tried my hand at the everlastings & love'em.

I'm wanting to try the glass glow, but i'm worried about the air bubbles.

[Stella1952]

Tiny air bubbles are attracted to plastics in lots of substances (water, concrete, Hawiian Punch, etc.), so maybe you are correct. I use metal cans or aluminum pour pots so plastic wouldn't be causing my issues, but it might contribute to others. I have noticed that when melting the wax, at a certain temp, there seems to be a lot of bubbles, then they vanish as the temp changes... wish I could remember which way - up or down... I think they disappeared as the temp went up but can't swear to it...

[kandlekrazy]

Yes you are right, Stella about the temp, and it is as the temp goes up the bubbles seem to go away in the Presto Pot...boy when the flakes are first melting there are tons of bubbles! Well, so much for plastic. The reason I don't use the aluminum is that I have no way to warm it except the oven and I'd get kicked out of the house if I lit the oven this week!! I'll have to go back to it when the weather cools and in the meantime stick to 1# at a time in my 4 cup measure, unless my partner is here to pour. Maybe I'll invest in one of those warmer plates.

[JCarlisle]

This is good info. I just got a sample of the Glass Glow and Starburst Palm from Peak and am going to try it out tomorrow. I'll keep my eye out for bubbles and may just try the spoon thing right off the bat.

I have a tip for you for warming jars, molds, and alum. pour pots. Go to your local Radio Control Airplane hobby shop if you have one and look for a heat gun. It is a blow dryer type of device, but blows much hotter than a hair dryer. The heat can exceed 400 degrees. I use one of them to warm my equipment, and also to clean my molds. It works much more quickly than the oven and uses less electricity. If you don't have an rc hobby store near by, you can get one for $17 from tower hobbies. Here is a link. http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXL498&P=ML

JCarlisle

[WhitePineCandle]

I use the palm wax from candlescience and don't have any trouble with air pockets and don't poke relief holes in the container wax, not necessary. I like working with the glass glow better than the frost. Tops finish off smooth and fine. On pillars I do not repour, when I level the bottoms off I put the shaved off wax back in the holes and little heat from gun and it's good to go.

Same here, except I used the CS frost palm container. I've made dozens of candles without any air pockets. Tarts with the starburst palm wax is another story.

[mparadise]

I have been using palm exclusively for 2-3 years now and have NEVER made a candle without an air pocket. You might not see them but I can almost guarantee they are there if you aren't poking relief holes. They usually form just under the surface like Stella mentioned. If you watch the candles as the top skin forms you can usually see the lighter area where the air pocket is. I typically pop a relief hold whereever the pocket is, let it set up most of the way and then do a repour. Once you get used to it palm isn't THAT much more work compared to my old 1 pour J50 was in containers. I have just purchased a few extra pour pots to leave the repour wax in to reheat. When I get to the 4th or 5th batch poured the first is typically ready for a repour so I pop that in the water bath to remelt while getting the next batch of wax melted. The only time I have had to repour over a repour is when I try to mess with it using the heat gun. I have learned that once the candle is set up the heat gun is NOT my friend. It kills some of the crystalization and can actually cause pockets to form along the top edge of my jars because the wax pulls away from the sides of the containers just a tiny bit when it cools. If you hit it with the heat gun at that point that tiny space gets filled in, leaving a gap at the top of the jar. The best way I have found to cool my jars is to pour them on the hotter side and put a piece of cardboard on my counter under the jars to protect them from the cold surface. If the workshop is really cold the sides will set up too quicly and form jump lines. At this point I do hit the sides with the heat gun to get rid of the jump lines then just let the jars be to set up. On occasion I have put a box over them if it is REALLY cold (workshop is in an unheated basement) but most of the time I do not and they come out fine. I just need to watch for the air bubbles more because they are more noticable the colder it is and may need more relief holes.

I use the same steps with votives and pillars for the best results.

Sorry so long....

[Stella1952]

The air pockets that palm wax develops are because of cavitation and have nothing to do with air bubbles from pouring containers, etc. This is simply a characteristic of palm wax. Many folks *think* they are producing candles with no voids (especially container candles) when they actually ARE in there. I make both container and pillar palm wax candles and can attest to this from much personal experience. Cutting open a palm wax lengthwise candle and quartering it generally tells the story, but this is difficult to effect in a container.

Because voids (air pockets) are a serious safety issue (the melt pool fills them and suddenly exposes too much wick, increasing the heat, etc.), people are well advised to do relief work on palm wax candles whether they see any voids or not.

There is no one location for air pockets, although most occur near the wick. This is why I don't attempt to make holes as that will leave some voids unfilled. When the candle has cooled about 1/8" deep on the top, I cut a circle about 1/4" from the outside of a container or mold and push the hardened wax as far down into the candle as possible.

The shaded area illustrates the area which is cut and pushed into the liquid center of the candle.

I do this several times as the candle cools. Each time, there is less liquid wax. Try to do this as neatly as possible to reduce finishing work.

When cooled, the "relief" area looks mighty rough and needs to be smoothed. For containers, one can trim any uneven wax "boogers" from the top, then use a heat gun to even the top. For pillars, trim the bottom, insert the wick, then run the bottom of the candle over a hot surface (electric skillet or griddle, etc.) to smooth it and seal the wicktab into the bottom. HTH

[Judy, USMC]

Because voids (air pockets) are a serious safety issue (the melt pool fills them and suddenly exposes too much wick, increasing the heat, etc.), people are well advised to do relief work on palm wax candles whether they see any voids or not.

I totally agree with Stella. I've seen the wick flare-up when the flame melts throught the wax and then floods into the void left by the air pocket in Glass Glow Container candles.

Like SherriLynn, I've tried every method I could think of to prevent the "bubble" from forming. Cooled slowly in an oven, under a box, with a box covered with warm towels, jars on a rack, jars on several layers of thick cardboard ~ and every combination thereof. Even did the pouring over the back of a spoon. No luck. I was able to get the bubble to a manageable size and coaxed to toward the top using the tap, tap, tap the jar method.

Once it's set up the wax is brittle. Now I take a 3 inch length of meltal pipe (about 1 1/4 in in diameter) center the pipe inside the jar opening and hit the pipe with a small rubber mallet. (Rubber mallet so I don't break the jar in case I'm off-target and hit the jar.) The wax instantly powders and falls into the void. A quick repour & I'm done.

There are so many of us who have developed our own methods of dealing with these bubbles. If you've found how to prevent them PLEASE, please share!