Private Branding, Secret Formulas...

[Stella1952]

Is anyone else just sick to death of trying to figure out exactly WHAT is in their wax or additives because of private branding, secret formulas and labels that tell one nothng? I so wish that when someone sells something, they would put everything that's in it (in the order of amount) on the dadgummed label. We shouldn't need laws to require people to do this - it's simply common sense and courtesy!

OK. I'm done raving...

[littlebrownbug]

Hi Stella,

I like that idea Stella....it would be great to have that kind of stuff listed. It should be a sign of committed and quality minded candle makers. Remind me when I start up production to do that....perhaps you could make up a simulated candle label with what you would like to see on it and post it here as a guide. Kind of like a "Good Candle Maker Seal of Approval" or something like that......smiles

Mike

[Vicky_CO]

Well I understand their point do you want your customers to know what all you put in your products and where you get your supplies. I am sure not going to tell my customers my blend of waxes or additives I use to make a great candle.

[CDGM]

While I can see not telling all their secrets I do think they should tell some things. For instance, one supplier carries a parasoy votive/pillar blend and since they are much closer to me for shipping I thought I would check into it. I wrote and asked what percentages it was of each and was told they wont divulge that information. I personally dont want to buy a product I dont know if its 70/30, 50/50 or some other blend. Needless to say they didnt get my sale.

[bugtussle]

Are you talking about candle suppliers or candle makers? That is one reason I stick with IGI. At least I know what to expect (good & bad.) I know of a few candle suppliers who buy whatever is available and use their brand on it. It is never consistent. Carole

[kandlekrazy]

I posted this once before, but I think it would be great to know at least what brands the suppliers are carrying. I'm no longer buying from the suppliers that put their own label on wax...can't tell if I'm duplicate testing. I think they should at least tell you who manufactures the wax.

[SouthernGal]

I can understand when a candle maker has spent their time and money perfecting their own blend and keeping it a secret. I can respect that. I have a problem with purchasing wax that a supplier refuses to give just a ratio % of soy to pariffin so I know how to market my finished candle to the public.

I agree with KandleKrazy, it's a waste of our time and money to duplicate test.

[Stella1952]

I think customers, whether they are wholesalers, retailers, suppliers or thieves, have a right to know what substances are contained in the stuff they buy. I am not saying that exact proportions should be named nor where one purchased their materials, nor the method used to combine the ingredients - just the facts, ma'am.

For example, if certain substances are added to soy wax to enhance its performance, the manufacturer should list what those are, as should the wholesaler, as should the retailer. Everyone all the way down the line has a right to know what's in their stuff, and in some cases, its country of origin.

IMHO, protecting "trade secrets" does not extend to refusing to inform people of basic ingredients. No one's secret formula is more important than an individual's right to know the truth about the contents of a product.

It all comes down to personal ethics - telling the truth and doing the best job we can do. What once were considered shoddy business practices are now TAUGHT in respected universities as clever marketing tools. Deception is considered part of doing business.

It doesn't bother me a bit to list all the ingredients (that I know of) on a label or on a fact sheet - I WANT my buyers to know what's in those candles! If someone else reads those ingredients and runs out and starts their own candle business, so what? If my stuff is "all that," I will continue to have good sales, regardless.

[Katesmom]

I have to agree with alot of the above posts. IMO if a supplier is selling straight GB415, C-1 , etc than just state that they carry that. The supplier may lose some biz, do to the fact that no one wants to retest the same wax.

They on the other hand, will gain alot of repeat biz, due to the fact that alot of candlers are close to them, use that brand and will buy their 415, C-1, etc. from them.

Really, with all the peeps that state for instance, BC ezsoy is GB 415, why don't these suppliers just state this,if indeed it is true.

Now if a suppliers wax is a proprietory blend, well then state that fact as well.

O.K. Off my soap box now!

[kandlekrazy]

I have to agree with alot of the above posts. IMO if a supplier is selling straight GB415, C-1 , etc than just state that they carry that. The supplier may lose some biz, do to the fact that no one wants to retest the same wax.

They on the other hand, will gain alot of repeat biz, due to the fact that alot of candlers are close to them, use that brand and will buy their 415, C-1, etc. from them.

Really, with all the peeps that state for instance, BC ezsoy is GB 415, why don't these suppliers just state this,if indeed it is true.

Now if a suppliers wax is a proprietory blend, well then state that fact as well.

O.K. Off my soap box now!

The supplier MAY just get some extra business if everyone knew what it was they carried. Example being there is a supplier in Oregon that is closer to me than Colorado, but I don't know what it is they are carrying, so I won't buy their wax. If they would tell me the brand and it was a brand I liked, I'd rather buy from the closer supplier. To me, stating what mfg you carry is just a win-win situation in the long run. Maybe some suppliers will monitor this thread and wise up!!

[Katesmom]

That is exactly the point I was trying to make KandleKrazy.

Hopefully the suppliers will see this.

[Jami]

For reasons listed on this post, I started just doing my own 70/30 blend. At least this way I know what percentage and what wax is involved. I would have gone with a supplier in KY if they were more willing to at least divulge percentages so we know type of wax we are working with. They wouldn't even give out that. What a crock of baloney. Why would a supplier be so afraid of losing business by divulging a % of the blend? Can I try and make a blend myself like I am doing now? Sure I can but right now its not a big deal to blend it. I don't want to retest at this point. When I have more time to retest, it will be with a wax that I KNOW is at least the same ratios so I am in the ballpark of my testing parameters.

People have migraines when burning paraffin. I don't want to be responsible for knowing that I may have caused someone else pain because I was too afraid to divulge I use 30% paraffin. If they know up front I have paraffin in my blend and tell me they can't burn it, I have soy available. It's only fair to the client to let them know what they are burning.

I strive to have my client base built on good customer service, reasonable costs and a good product. If listing my ingredients on my BB products is enough to send them off to another supplier, I didn't do my job to keep that client.

Just my

[Vicky_CO]

I agree and disagree with some that has been said here. If you are going to go as far as some here want then lets take this all the way and every supplier has to give up where they actually get all the FOs and other products so we can buy from who is closest because supplier A carries the same items as supplier B but under a different name. You most likely have tested the same FOs over and over trying to find the perfect scent but because supplier A doesn't tell you they get it from the same place as supplier B but you don't know you have done it. FO are the best private labeling tactic the supplier have ever done. I can guarantee you the suppliers are never giving up that info.

We can go even further by saying the FO manufacturers have to list all the things they put in every FO they sell to the supplier so we know exactly what is in our candles because truthfully when we are using 6% to 10% that is a major part of the candle.

Truthfully if you don't like the way a supplier does something don't waste your time buy from a different supplier there are plenty out there.

I agree that the supplier should at least tell you what percent is paraffin and what percent is soy. I also think they should list if it 100% soy or if it has say cottonseed added to it.

[Candlebuddy]

Just to add my ... I buy wax from a supplier that describes her 50/50 as ... "Single pour container wax made of 50% soy and other waxes and additives". I asked her what the "other waxes and additives" were ... she wouldn't tell me.

Anyway, I stick with this wax because I love it and I get great customer service. However, it sure would be nice to know what I'm buying.

[Golden Brands]

Golden Brands list this on all of our boxes. Anything with the GB label is treated as a food product and therefore adhears to the rules set forth by the FDA. If you ever have any questions as to what is in our waxes call me and i will be more then happy to go over it with you.

jason glaser

[suzanneg]

I somewhat disagree cause many years ago I had my own crafting business and I told everyone my "secrets" on how to make my items.......well lets say my craft business of 20 years went out of business due to the fact that everyone was so nosey and wanted to know "how I did it" that they copied me and started their own business! So I learned a valuable lesson and my mom blessed me out!!!!! LOL

I have other candle biz's send their family and friends to my shoppe to try and get info of how and what I make my candles, incense, fragrance oils, and bath & body out of. I spot them a mile away! LOL

I do tell the ingredients but not my formulation and and how I do it. I figure it will take a person so many months to figure it out and by then I have improved/updated my formulation and how to's and it is better than before.

[kandlekrazy]

I agree with you totally, but I think the point is more to know if they are not doing their own custom blend, then who's wax are they actually carrying? I have found that most of the mfgr's will tell you who carries their wax and I've been able to identify some of the "mystery" labels...but it is very time consuming. If the supplier is custom blending...just put the ingredients on a lablel...not the formula.

[TxSioux]

Geez, I still don't know what's in hot dogs ... but not entirely sure I want to! -LOL-

I see both sides of this issue, to a certain extent. On one hand, I've worked over 6 yrs making a candle I'm proud of & don't want to hand out all that information. Now, if I claimed to make a product for a certain purpose, I would expect to back that up ... like a kosher candle or a breast enhancing candle. <grin> But, for a non-edible/cosmetic product, the only reason I see for listing my complete ingredients would be to satisfy the curiosity of another candlemaker. Come on, who else would be interested in knowing I use Universal Additive? On the other hand ... you bet I would love to know every ingredient used to make certain candles.

I do understand your point. I guess I'm just of the opinion that 'proprietary blends' serve to protect the maker. I'm not for people who lie about their product or use deceptive labeling, when hiding the truth violates someone else's values or health. But, I'm also very much against more laws that only serve to bog down the judicial system & open the avenue for undue liability.

Susan.

[Stella1952]

I'm also very much against more laws that only serve to bog down the judicial system & open the avenue for undue liability.

...which would be unnecessary if people used ethics, morals and common sense and left greed, stupidity and corruption out of the mix.

"Non-edible, cosmetic product"? You BREATHE the fumes from the candle! You put cosmetics on the largest vital organ in your body!

Listing USA is not the issue - what is in USA anyway? Do you know?

In case someone is allergic to beeswax, don't you think I oughta mention on my label that my candle contains a small amount? The best labels I read not only list their ingredients, they list the secondary ingredients and the common names (in case someone doesn't know that tocopherol is Vitamin E).

You can list every tiny ingredient on a label and people will still not know the exact formulation of your product nor will they know the techniques you used to make it. There is not THAT much new under the sun that we should protect an ingredient list from consumers. That's an excuse. A consumer's rights as the end user trumps your rights as a candlemaker with a secret recipe.

I don't think ANYONE'S secret candle formula is so ALL THAT as to not be required to put the ingredients of it on the label for consumers.

[TxSioux]

Well, apparently the Gov does, cause it's not required for candles. And I still stand by my contention that listing candle ingredients is not a concern to 99% of the consumers ... & I'm going to give up that 1% as a big question mark. Hell, most consumers won't read a label & burn a candle correctly, so what makes you think the majority will read ingredients? Lines seem to be getting blurred between candles & B&B products. I'm only referring to candles. I know you only used beeswax as an example, so let's go w/ that one. I guess there could be someone who could die from smelling a 3oz votive made w/ 1/2 an oz of beeswax pp of wax, but I have a hard time believing anything of the sort. I'm quite allergic to cedar, but a cedar candle does not bother me in any way. A sane person is not applying a candle to their skin, bathing w/ it or ingesting it. Yes, I know there are candles which promote application to the skin, but by doing that they become a cosmetic product & therefore must list ingredients. I really don't see this as a big issue, just a difference of opinion & I see no need to divulge every ingredient of a candle. The only possible exception I can see is a matter of preference for someone w/ strict religious or environmental issues. I'm not 'hiding' anything & have printed material available that states I use 100% soy wax w/ a small amount of beeswax. Do you also suggest we provide MSDS info for every fo? I applaud your convictions, but I don't share them. It's obvious you refuse to look at any other opinion other than your own & seem like a bully if anyone dares to defy your words. I'll change my labels when the Gov forces my hand, not you.

Susan.

[Stella1952]

It's obvious you refuse to look at any other opinion other than your own & seem like a bully if anyone dares to defy your words. I'll change my labels when the Gov forces my hand, not you.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I am bullying or do not consider opinions other than my own. Although I may write stridently, Susan, as do you, I am actually quite open to the points of view of all concerned.

Sure, I would love to be able to provide a MSDS for every FO and ingredient I use - would that they were available to me from my suppliers! But all along the way have their proprietary secrets, which is where the topic began...

I do not share your belief in government standards nor do I wait for the government to force me into doing what I believe to be the right thing to do. I just finished drinking a beverage which has a LOT of ingredients in it, but the label only says that it was a "premium malt beverage with natural flavors and artificial colors." Anyone familiar with product labeling requirements knows that alcoholic beverages are not required by the government to list their ingredients on the label although makers of fruit juice must do so. Gee, could it be that the liquor lobby has an impact on what our government requires? :rolleyes2 Sorry, I do not believe that the government exactly has a patent on protecting its citizens, especially when there is a political or corporate buck on the line.

Hell, most consumers won't read a label & burn a candle correctly, so what makes you think the majority will read ingredients?

*snort* Now THERE'S a topic I think we can agree on! There is absolutely NOTHING that could make me think that the majority of end users will read a label. Most folks don't even read the newspaper! You can lead a horse to water, but ya can't make him read a label! However, to protect the interests of both end-users and manufacturers, candidly listing ingredients solves the problem for both. Nothing is hidden, yet the formula is not divulged. It's a win/win situation for everyone, especially the end user, if they choose to inform themselves. If they do not, they cannot argue that anything was concealed from them.

We have cited some extreme examples here that may happen very seldomly, but when they do, they are 100% for the person who has the problem and for the company or person who made/sold the item. Good people have been forced out of business by lawsuits over much, much less than this! All I am saying is that by listing the ingredients all the way down the line, from manufacturer to supplier to chandler to end user, we can eliminate a lot of fuzzy areas, make more informed choices about what we choose to include in our products and give the end user as open a list of ingredients as possible so that they, too, may make informed choices, if they choose to read.

Who knows? We might even produce better candles as a result! I am ALWAYS open to that!

Peace, dear. I'm not the enemy.

[TxSioux]

You make very valid & well informed points, Stella. I admit I was mostly playing 'devil's advocate' in this discussion, but I appreciate the ideas you've presented & will certainly entertain them further. I'm mostly digging in my heels at the idea of going back to the drawing board & revamping labels to include something that doesn't strike a chord for me. I understand the frustration of not being able to access information you find important. I tend to jump on bandwagons &, at any given time, read labels when I've decided to 'give up' something like wheat or phenylalanine (aspartame). I finally get so exhausted I just go to Taco Bell! <grin> I think it all boils down to any of us finding importance in issues that impact us personally. I try to hope others aren't being rude or stupid when they make a certain choice, but are possibly just not well informed. It's quite depressing to know we, as producers, have to be responsible for not only the product we make, but the abundant stupidity of a litigious consumer. You have many good thoughts on responsibility that reinforces how very seriously we all need to take our craft.

Susan.

PS - it certainly can be hard to read 'tone' into our posts. I realize my sarcasm doesn't often play well in the written word, so thank you for giving me the benefit of doubt! There are so many that find it easier to lower the bar, instead of rising to it. I appreciate the cordial debate & the opportunity to see an angle I hadn't considered. Peace out.

[Stella1952]

I tend to jump on bandwagons &, at any given time, read labels when I've decided to 'give up' something like wheat or phenylalanine (aspartame). I finally get so exhausted I just go to Taco Bell!

Not havin' the ingredients on that Mike's Hard Lime label did not prevent me from draining it, and his brother, too!

[soylights]

Sorry to but in.....but this seems to be an ongoing debate. I have gone back and forth about this as well. I tried a soy blend, but my customers wanted 100% soy. I got many questions and concerns when I added the 50/50 to my line. I eventually took it out due to lack of sales.

A friend of mine did the same thing and also had to switch to soy. I do think that consumers care about what's in the wax. At least my customers show some concern. When I am at craft shows the soy candles tend to sell better than the paraffin. People are very aware of the differences.

I have met many suppliers that DESPISE soy wax and think it poo. I'll stick with the SOY and agree that ingredients would be very helpful!

[Sharon in KY]

I think our customers that have trouble breathing or are allergic to anything will look at label or ask, the others will not. Most will not even buy a candle.

As far as suppliers go, if they have a true blend they came up with then call the wax what ever. But if it's 415 or 6006 then I wish you would just flat out say it. Wax is too big a pain to change the name on us. Also bet they wouldn't like it if the wax manufacture changed names on them. I told a supplier one time how much I like the Strahl & Pitsch, for votives. Well they got some votive wax in but wouldn't tell me if it was S&P so I call the manufacture to see who sold their wax in my area. They said no one would let them say. Bunch of crap, I just bought through them.