Daystar taking over the Serendipities FOs!

[CareBear]

It's in the supplier announcements!

[bugtussle]

Carebear, I guess that's great for you folks that mainly soap, but the 10% price increase is really going to hurt my candle business. Carole

[Grumpy Girl]

OOOOOh.

Kick, ass.

[NattyCat]

Carebear, I guess that's great for you folks that mainly soap, but the 10% price increase is really going to hurt my candle business. Carole

I posted earlier on in this forum about daystar prices - they're the highest prices I've ever seen and with the 10% increase coming, I don't think I'll ever be able buy from them because of the added shipping costs to the UK.

It seems quite a few who do currently buy, won't be able to from April due to the price hike. How come nobody else has increased their prices? I'm pretty sure the manufacturer who supplies daystar is where lots of other FO suppliers get their oils from and there hasn't been a noticeable industry-wide increase as far as I've seen?

[bugtussle]

"there hasn't been a noticeable industry-wide increase as far as I've seen?"

Natty Cat, PLEASE don't say that. The other suppliers may read this board and say, OK, think I'll just go up too. HaHa, I'm just teasing or maybe not. Carole

[NattyCat]

yea, but a 10% increase anywhere else will STILL be cheaper than DS.

[Grumpy Girl]

Nope, SW and SC's has them beat by a long shot already.

[NattyCat]

who's SW and SC?

[Grumpy Girl]

Scent Works and Sweetcakes. They're popular for soaping oils, but I've tried a few in wax, and they throw extremely well. The cost is just too outrageously high to even persue it even though the quality is fabulous. Both do have oils that are reasonably priced though, I'm just never drawn to them for some reason.

[jakalex]

SC - Sweet Cakes

SW - Scent Works

[jakalex]

It seems quite a few who do currently buy, won't be able to from April due to the price hike. How come nobody else has increased their prices? I'm pretty sure the manufacturer who supplies daystar is where lots of other FO suppliers get their oils from and there hasn't been a noticeable industry-wide increase as far as I've seen?

I am somewhat questioning the increase across the board. I am not a supplier but surely they do not get all their oils from one manufacturer????

[mountainmadness]

I am somewhat questioning the increase across the board. I am not a supplier but surely they do not get all their oils from one manufacturer????

The suppliers that I use for FO have not had any increases.

You have to figure that she purchased the business from another... maybe she wants to make more profit to pay off her investment.

10% is not as much as the increase in some butters and oils over the past year.

I have never purchased anything from them... I can understand why a lot of you are upset.

[smellywax]

Didn't know who they were when I got the email

[Pam]

I am somewhat questioning the increase across the board. I am not a supplier but surely they do not get all their oils from one manufacturer????

Prices are increasing with a lot of items, one reason is the cost of shipping of products to them. My parents are in the trucking industry, and the price of fuel keeps going up in price, and which means and increase in companies costs. Businesses have to make a profit to support themselves, and so the consumer sees the price increases.

Pam F

[KBar4616]

Hey y'all!

Just wanted to add a little info here... even if I had kept Serendipities, my prices would have gone up 10% also effective April 1st. I received letters from two of my manufacturers (very large, worldwide manufacturers) that their prices were going up 10% on April 1, which is why I would have had to increase prices, and why DayStar is having to raise their prices as well.

Other suppliers may not have raised their prices yet, but look for it to probably happen soon. With the recent storms and weird weather we've had this year, lots of citrus crops were destroyed and the price of citrus additives will therefore go up as well.

Also, remember that both Serendipities and DayStar are smaller supply businesses and do not have the buying power that larger companies like Bittercreek, etc. do. While they may buy their oils in drums of 55 gallon or more, therefore getting a larger quantity price break, we buy ours more in quantities of 35 pounds or so.

And last, but certainly not least, remember also that you do get what you pay for The prices I charged for my oils were not cheap... but that's because my oils were not cheap, and they weren't cheap to me, either. I will tell you that with this 10% price increase on April 1 from the manufacturer, I had at least 3 oils that will be close to $17 per pound MY COST, that's BEFORE adding on cost of shipping the oil to me, cost of the bottles, labels, tape, etc. And don't forget, no supplier is doing this just for fun... while I can guarantee none of us are getting rich from selling fragrance oils, it is nice to try and make a little bit of profit for your time and effort... it IS a business too!

I do know that it's harder for chandlers to justify the cost of some of the more expensive oils that are proven to work in soap... the fact is, candlemakers don't need the kind of quality oils that soapmakers do to make a good candle. The oils just don't take the same beating in wax as they do in lye But, it has been my experience that the oils that hold up so well in soap also kick butt in wax, and need less oil per pound of wax to do it... so again, sometimes the extra price is worth the quality, both for soaps and candles.

I hope none of this comes across sounding harsh or that anyone takes offense... that's not my intent at all. I just think sometimes people forget that suppliers do this as a business as well, and just like you they would like to make a profit doing what they love. And usually the smaller-scale suppliers are making the least amount of profit, because they have the least amount of markup on their oils to try and stay competitive. It's hard, I know... but as a soapmaker and chandler myself, I say with all sincerity that I'll take a more expensive quality oil over the cheap stuff any day! I have wasted more money than I care to add up on oils that were GREAT in price, but SUCKED in quality.... and I learned my lesson!!

Hugs!

Kerri

[funkymonkey66]

Well I have to say that I have several fragrance oils that I purchase 35lb + direct from the same places that the suppliers buy from and I have yet to see an increase per pound or get a memo.

Shipping is shipping and it is part of business. Suppliers get there stuff by the pallet and freighted which is WAY LESS then single boxes so if anything the shipping is not as bad as you would think.

Maybe you guys should think about doing a co op and buying direct. I will tell you some fragrances I was paying $17.95 a lb for only cost me $5-6 a lb direct. It is well worth it if you are doing the volume. Just about any manufacture can dupe an oil that you send them. So it is something to think about if stuff just becomes too outrageous.

[KBar4616]

Shipping is shipping and it is part of business. Suppliers get there stuff by the pallet and freighted which is WAY LESS then single boxes so if anything the shipping is not as bad as you would think.

This is not always true. In fact, in 3 years of selling fragrance oils as a supplier, I have NEVER received oils by pallet or by freight... the only thing I ever received by pallet or freight were chemicals... 55-gallon drums of cyclomethicone or DPG, or Foaming Bath Butter. My oils have ALWAYS been shipped to me via UPS, DHL or FedEx, from the manufacturers. And this is on orders of 20+ different fragrances, in 25+ pound quantities per fragrance.

You are correct that shipping is part of business... which is why, when shipping costs go up, so do the costs of your products. A business owner can only 'eat' so much of these costs before it begins being detrimental to their business.

I don't know why you haven't heard of any manufacturer price increases... perhaps you don't use the same manufacturers? And it is not only the manufacturers I use... I also know that IFT is raising their prices 10% on April 1st as well... if you use them and you haven't been notified, maybe you don't order often? Call them and ask, if you don't believe me. And I know that LOTS of folks do IFT co-ops on here, so their prices will be going up as well.

And yes, anyone can have any scent duplicated by most manufacturers, you are correct. But a dupe is not the same as the scent that the original supplier is selling.

You know, one of the things that I find so ironic about this whole industry is exactly what is being discussed here.... I can read one thread where a candlemaker is venting because customers complain that their candles are too expensive... they can buy candles at Walmart for half the price (of course, they're half the quality... but who's taking notes?). And then in the very next thread, you can see that same poster complaining about the price of some supplier's fragrance oils, saying they can buy them cheaper somewhere else or have them duped and do a co-op... but then when they do that, and therefore shut out businesses like Longwyck's, or any of the other smaller FO suppliers that have sold out to the 'big guys' or gone out of business in the last year, they whine and complain about THAT as well.

When you do a co-op, you have one person designated to collect orders and monies, pour the oils and send them out. While that is a LOT of work (and trust me, you don't know HOW much work it is until you actually DO it!), that's all there is to a co-op... select, small quantities and in one bulk swoop. But that's only part of what a supplier does. When you purchase from a supplier, THEY have fronted the money to purchase the oils, THEY pay the overhead for storing those oils, waiting for YOU to purchase them, and basically have their money sitting in oils until someone buys it. You pay for the convenience of only having to purchase what you need, when you need it. And, as I said previously... suppliers are NOT in this for just fun and games... it is a BUSINESS and they are trying to make a profit as well, JUST LIKE most of you.

I am all for everyone trying to get the best buy for their money... we all do it and we would be poor business owners if we didn't. But don't knock suppliers for trying to make a LIVING at what they do... or at the very least help support their crafting habit. You don't know what their costs are for selling those oils. If I had an oil that cost $16 per pound and I sell it for $20 per pound, that's not even a 50% profit margin... which SUCKS. I sell my candles and soaps for at least 2X or 3X what it costs me to make them, otherwise why bother??? Suppliers don't make that kind of profit... at least, not the smaller ones.

Now, I'm sorry if any of this comes across as rude or bitchy, but this has really irked me for a while now. If anyone thinks it's so easy and lucrative, I invite anyone to become a fragrance oil supplier... sink thousands of dollars into inventory in oils; and then hundreds more into the materials you need to test each and every fragrance you carry; spend hours and hours online advertising your business and building a reputation; hundreds of dollars and hours of time in either creating or designing your website, finding adequate storage space for drums and drums of oils, bottles, scales, shipping and packaging supplies; and then devote MORE hours of your time answering and responding to emails from customers, some of who complain about how much it costs to ship their orders or that your oils cost too much; and MAYBE add in a few cents for your *time* (NOT!), and see what you think it is all worth. I guarantee you that it is NOT all rosy on the other side, and it takes a LOT of WORK, TIME, EFFORT and DEVOTION to be a supplier in this industry, NONE of which you actually get paid for!!!

I'm just thankful that I had customers who appreciated my time, effort, work and devotion and SHOWED that they appreciated it, or I wouldn't have stuck it out as long as I did, because it was THOSE customers that I was concerned with when I decided to not do it anymore! THEY were the ones who made all of it worth while!

Now, I am done posting in this thread, which has totally gotten off-topic... but I will end by saying that Stacy is one of the best suppliers I know, her oils are top-notch and worth EVERY penny she has to charge for them (and her prices are NOT outrageous at all on her standard line), and I am proud and pleased that she has added the Serendipities Scents oils to her product line, because all of the TIME and EFFORT that I put into it (and did NOT get paid for!!) deserves to go to another supplier with the same devotion and commitment to quality oils... because trust me, if we ONLY did this for the money, NONE of us would be doing it!!!

[Jordan]

Well said, and no offense taken. I know it is a lot of work when you are a supplier, my hats off to all of ya

[KukiKat]

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to say that I know other suppliers are also being hit with increases, it is so sad!! I won't stop ordering from DS, though, I love her oils. My customers would die without their pistachio Ice Cream and Buttercream Icing!!!!

[warmvanilla]

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to say that I know other suppliers are also being hit with increases, it is so sad!! I won't stop ordering from DS, though, I love her oils. My customers would die without their pistachio Ice Cream and Buttercream Icing!!!!

Pistachio Ice Cream:drool:

Now how did I miss that one!

[NattyCat]

Whilst I agree with most of the things Kerrie says, the plain and undisputed fact is that you if you don't have customers, you don't have a business. This is especially true when the business you have is extremely competitive.

I'm not sure if we are supposed to feel sorry for the smaller suppliers who don't have the buying power of places like Bittercreek? To be honest, that's not our problem. As candle makers - we don't have the buying power of organisations such as Yankee who probably pay 20 cents for their glassware and $2 for a pound of oil, which is why price hikes hit us hard.

Whilst I agree that small businesses should try to stick together and support each other - , I doubt anyone can be expected to say "oh well, I know this oil costs $5 more at supplier A, when I could get it $5 cheaper at supplier B, but supplier A doesn't have the buying power of supplier B - that's a shame, I'll buy from them to help prop up their business"

It doesn't work like that. If supplier A's prices are higher than supplier B's prices - then people will go to supplier B. Selling candles is JUST as cut-throat as selling oils - some people make such a small profit (and definately not always the 2x or 3x that was mentioned) that every dollar counts.

I'm sure if an oil supplier had the choice of buying from two manufacturers whose quality was comparable - they wouldn't buy their oil from the more expensive manufacturer JUST because they were a smaller organisation and therefore couldn't match the prices of the larger organisation. - As Kerrie said, they want to make a profit so it wouldn't make sense to buy the more expensive oil out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't run a charity and neither do we, and we cannot be expected to support the smaller business with higher prices when we are small businesses ourselves.

At the end of the day, those who do increase their prices will find out soon enough if it was the right thing to do. They will either lose business or carry on as normal. Because I am not mean-spirited, I do hope their businesses are not affected but I can tell you this - chandlers can't go and add a 10% increase to the price of their candles as the market is saturated with candles at hugely competitive prices already - so if they can't afford to absorb the price hike for their supplies, they won't buy from the expensive supplier - and that supplier will then lose business and could go the same way as Longwyck.

Lastly - there was a point made about candles not needing as good a quality oil as B&B - this is rubbish. Firstly, if you're creating soy candles - you need the best quality FO you can get and secondly, if you want a candle whose scent knocks out the 10 other brands of candles being sold right next to yours, you need to use up to 1.5oz per pound - even if it IS an expensive FO.

[KBar4616]

Well, I know I said I was done posting on this thread, but to clarify a few points I made in my last post, I changed my mind

I'm not sure if we are supposed to feel sorry for the smaller suppliers who don't have the buying power of places like Bittercreek? To be honest, that's not our problem. As candle makers - we don't have the buying power of organisations such as Yankee who probably pay 20 cents for their glassware and $2 for a pound of oil, which is why price hikes hit us hard.

Not at all.... nobody is asking for your pity! Either you missed my point or I didn't explain myself clearly enough... both of which are possible

I'll explain better in the next paragraph.....

Whilst I agree that small businesses should try to stick together and support each other - , I doubt anyone can be expected to say "oh well, I know this oil costs $5 more at supplier A, when I could get it $5 cheaper at supplier B, but supplier A doesn't have the buying power of supplier B - that's a shame, I'll buy from them to help prop up their business"

It doesn't work like that. If supplier A's prices are higher than supplier B's prices - then people will go to supplier B. Selling candles is JUST as cut-throat as selling oils - some people make such a small profit (and definately not always the 2x or 3x that was mentioned) that every dollar counts.

I'm sure if an oil supplier had the choice of buying from two manufacturers whose quality was comparable - they wouldn't buy their oil from the more expensive manufacturer JUST because they were a smaller organisation and therefore couldn't match the prices of the larger organisation.

I'm not talking about oils that are comparable, that's my point.

The larger suppliers have to make a larger profit margin to cover their overhead, and therefore need oils that are not as expensive... and I'm sorry, you can bash me if you wish, but this means a lower quality. Why do you think places like SOS have different 'grades' of oils? It's about the quality of the oils... higher quality means higher price.

At the end of the day, those who do increase their prices will find out soon enough if it was the right thing to do. They will either lose business or carry on as normal. Because I am not mean-spirited, I do hope their businesses are not affected but I can tell you this - chandlers can't go and add a 10% increase to the price of their candles as the market is saturated with candles at hugely competitive prices already - so if they can't afford to absorb the price hike for their supplies, they won't buy from the expensive supplier - and that supplier will then lose business and could go the same way as Longwyck.

You think the 'supplier' market isn't saturated with competition?!? Look around... everyone these days is doing co-ops and buys... I mean, if you think we aren't affected by having to add 10% increase to our prices as suppliers, then this discussion wouldn't be necessary!

I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about... when I first announced I was no longer going to stock oils and only offer them in prebuys, there were a lot of people who were disappointed or upset by that decision because it meant that they had to wait for a buy in order to get the oils that they used from me. They would have to budget their expenses, stock up when the buy was on and if they ran out, they were out of luck until the next buy. THAT is what I was talking about... suppliers who keep oils in stock on a regular basis have expenses that co-op'ers DON'T. And you have to expect to pay for that convenience of being able to order it when you need it and how much you need. I don't know of many co-ops that offer oils in 1oz, 2oz or 4oz sizes!

The same cycle that you described above for chandlers is the same cycle for suppliers. What I'm talking about is the hypocracy that usually accompanies these types of scenarios.... for example;

I've seen this happen over and over again, even in my own supply business. Customer A posts that they are looking for, let's say, Love Spell FO. Someone suggests Small Supplier because their FO's are excellent. Customer A goes to the website and sees that Small Supplier does carry Love Spell, but it's $20 per pound. They can get it from Large Supplier for $12 per pound. So they buy it from Large Supplier. Then the next week, they are on the lists complaining that the Love Spell they bought from Large Supplier seized their soap, or they can't smell it at all in their candle, and so they wasted the $12 on the cheaper FO. So they go back to Small Supplier to order the higher quality FO, but find that Small Supplier has sold their business to Large Supplier, because everyone wants $12 FO's. So they order the Small Supplier FO from Large Supplier, and then find that it's been reformulated to a cheaper costing oil (because Large Supplier has a bigger profit margin, remember) so now it still isn't the quality they want, but it's the same price as Small Supplier was charging in the first place! And then it's back to the lists to complain about how all the smaller suppliers are going out of business and selling out to the larger ones. And so the circle begins again.

Anyone is welcome to buy from wherever they want. My point was that if people want the cheaper oils, then they shouldn't complain when they have to wait on a co-op or buy in order to get them, because you can't expect a supplier to have all their money tied up in oils waiting for them to be purchased, and not get any profit from that. Even banks charge interest.

Lastly - there was a point made about candles not needing as good a quality oil as B&B - this is rubbish. Firstly, if you're creating soy candles - you need the best quality FO you can get and secondly, if you want a candle whose scent knocks out the 10 other brands of candles being sold right next to yours, you need to use up to 1.5oz per pound - even if it IS an expensive FO.

Actually, I believe I said SOAPMAKING needs better quality FO's, and that is a fact. I've never had an FO cause my candle wax to seize.... maybe someone else has?

[funkymonkey66]

Listen, I am not disputing that DS has a great oil selection. Her stuff is exceptional and worth the current price, every penny I may add. I do find with most oils I have tried from her that you need less to accomplish the desired results and the woman has great taste in the scents she selects to add to her line.

I respect her as a business woman. One thing about her that I respect most of all and I am sure you can ALL relate is that her sister candle co. web site stays competitive with ours. She is not selling her oils at top notch prices and then selling her candles cheaper than us @ almost wholesale prices to the general public like some and then have the 2 sites linked to one another???

I am simply stating that undoubted you will lose some business if the prices across the board go up that much or more. I think you may just want to look into other manufactures to see if maybe they can give you a better price without sacrificing the quality to keep your the customers that can only afford to purchase smaller amounts.

What if you offered big quantities at a larger discount? Like 15 lbs for a little over your cost? No smaller bottles just put your label over the can and send it out. Let the candle maker use there own bottles and spend the time pouring. Then you could buy even more and get a better price, save all the way around. I am sure that candle makers that live relatively close in the same areas that would be more than willing to split up the cost on a deal like that.

Do not take my words as a personal attack, I am just adding my 2 cents in general to all suppliers not just DS.

[KBar4616]

Do not take my words as a personal attack, I am just adding my 2 cents in general to all suppliers not just DS.

I know... and that's why I went ahead and posted what I did... I didn't take it as a personal attack on myself or on Stacy as individuals... I just know that *most* small suppliers are in the same situation.

The fact of the matter is that manufacturers are raising their prices, because the cost of everything is going up. If the manufacturer that you (and I mean collectively, not you personally, funky! ) use hasn't announced a price increase yet, I'm sure they will soon. It may not be the 10% that IFT and some of the other ones have announced for April, but I'm sure it will be something. The cost of raw materials is going up, gas is up (again!!! ), everything is going up, and eventually the price increase trickles down to the consumer, in ALL aspects of business and buying. No company can indefinitely eat cost increases and continue to stay in business. Eventually these costs have to be absorbed into the retail price.

As far as buying from a smaller supplier in bulk... well, I can't speak for Stacy, but that had always been an option with me. But no one ever requested a quote for a bulk rate.

Again, none of my posts were done with the intent to insult or make anyone angry... I just felt that *some* posts insinuated that Stacy was getting some outrageous markup profit on her oils and that they were outrageously priced, and that is not the case at all. I went through her site again last night and found her oils to be very comparable, especially with other smaller, high-quality suppliers like Tony's or Oregon Trails.

The value of something can only be measured by the desire in which someone wants it. My husband and I have a 1978 Chevy Nova that we were going to restore, and now have changed our minds and want to restore a baja VW bug instead. We looked at one last night to consider trading the Nova for it... it's a 1969 baja bug, tore-up engine, rusted floor, beat-up seats, etc. I said the same thing to him when he asked me if it was worth the trade... the value is dependant upon the person who wants it... it all depends on what it's worth to you.

[Laura]

it's not a fair statement to say that larger suppliers get lower quality oils because of overhead costs...maybe some do, but certainly not all...just want to clarify that a lower price doesn't necessarily mean the quality is lower. i have personally tried fos from different suppliers that varied greatly in pricing, and over the years i have been able to avoid the high pricing in all but 4-5 fo's that i currently carry....so, it's definitely doable

secondly, if a supplier that buys out another's fo's goes and has them reformulated to save $, that would be like shooting themselves in the foot.

a good reputable supplier would never do that. certain reasons to reformulate would be because of a low flash point, or certain components are no longer available to make up that exact fo, or the price of components in an fo have risen considerably and a supplier has the option to pay more, or choose another version...which they would (if reputable) and should make an announcement before hand or in some cases, ask their customers if they are still interested to keep an fo if the price goes up.