Wick testing in palm?

[calan]

How do you go about wick testing with palm? (Specifically, Glass Glow).

With other candles, I typically pour a jar wickless, and then poke a hole and start dropping in wicks and burning a while until I get close. This gets me about two thirds into the candle with 4 or 5 test burns, at which point I have a pretty good idea and can pour a new candle with a mounted wick to do a full test.

Something tells me this approach won't work so well with palm. 

Do you just melt the wax in the jar after a failed test, and re-pour with a new wick each time?

On a semi-related topic, do you leave unused palm wax in the melter and reheat when needed like with other waxes? With parafins and blends, I just make a big pot and empty what I need into a pour pot for mixing, and then turn it off when done. I just add more wax every few days as needed. Will this work for palm too, or do the repeated heating/cooling cycles mess with the crystalization?

Edited December 14, 2019 by calan

[NightLight]

I would totally melt down again because hahah trying to get a skewer in that wax....though I have always done tester with glued in wicks as I couldn’t figure out how to test otherwise. With that wax. I guess wait until slushy then skewer then insert test wick.

From my test I started with csn 16 for a 2.5 jar. Some people like a thick shell, then let it burn 2/3 and let out shell catch up and melt. Many opinions on this wax and wicks.

I only make these for myself as the burn is very foreign to people who don’t know palm.

I will say though the test candles I have made as the most fragrant!

If you search the forums there are a number of posts for palm and using the flip method which works.

[CaptnKush]

Take a drill with small drill bit and drill a hole. Just be sure not to go so fast that you crack the glass.

[calan]

2 hours ago, CaptnKush said:

Take a drill with small drill bit and drill a hole. Just be sure not to go so fast that you crack the glass.

I thought of that, but wasn't sure that the normal 2 or 3 test burns before pulling and changing the wick would tell me much. 

[Sarah S]

The first three burns with a palm wax candle don't give you a lot of info unless it's horribly under wicked. You really need to burn at least half of the jar before making a judgement call about the wick or the FO.

The good thing about Palm is you can tell immediately if it's under wicked. It will be the saddest little flame you have ever seen in your life. 😂

[calan]

Any problem with leaving it in the presto for repeated uses, like with any other wax?

[Sarah S]

4 hours ago, calan said:

Any problem with leaving it in the presto for repeated uses, like with any other wax?

 

Not that I've discovered yet! 😉😁

[calan]

Poured my first two test candles with it, one wicked with a CD18 and one unwicked, and a few melts. They came out beautiful with great CT, and the flip was a piece of cake due to how different this wax crusts over and cools (I had nightmares about what that might be like. LOL)

Now if they will burn, that would be awesome. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by calan

[CaptnKush]

You should try the CSN wicks from Candle Science. They were made for Palm wax from what I hear. Thats what I use for mine and haven't had any problems.

[calan]

1 hour ago, CaptnKush said:

You should try the CSN wicks from Candle Science. They were made for Palm wax from what I hear. Thats what I use for mine and haven't had any problems.

What size would you recommend starting with for a 9 oz straight-sided jar?

I have Eco, CD, and Premier sample packs on hand, so figured I'd just start with what I have. I've heard the CSN's and RRD's mentioned a lot though.

[calan]

How thick should the shell on the side be?  In other words, how do you know if the wick is tunneling or burning properly during the first half?

[CaptnKush]

CSN 7 for the straight side jar. First burn you are gonna get this funky shelf of wax at the top as it tunnels. Second burn will usually take that away then the sides will follow as the wick burns down. Its not real thick on the sides but still enough to give you a really cool glow effect. You will know after 3rd burn if you got it right. Its been a while since I messed with these. There is a member on this forum that does nothing but these, Im sure she will chime in and help.

[calan]

40 minutes ago, CaptnKush said:

CSN 7 for the straight side jar. First burn you are gonna get this funky shelf of wax at the top as it tunnels. Second burn will usually take that away then the sides will follow as the wick burns down. Its not real thick on the sides but still enough to give you a really cool glow effect. You will know after 3rd burn if you got it right. Its been a while since I messed with these. There is a member on this forum that does nothing but these, Im sure she will chime in and help.

Thanks for all the info.

Is the Glass Glow pretty stable after 24 or 48 hours, or does it continue to harden enough to drastically affect wicking over x amount of time??

[calan]

Just finished the 1st 4-hour test burn of my first palm candle. I think it worked as expected (exactly as @CaptnKush described), other than the typical off-center burn of the CD wick (which I hate  ).

Do the CSN's burn straight with a nice centered MP... like zincs or the LX's and Premiers?

[Sarah S]

8 hours ago, calan said:

Just finished the 1st 4-hour test burn of my first palm candle. I think it worked as expected (exactly as @CaptnKush described), other than the typical off-center burn of the CD wick (which I hate  ).

Do the CSN's burn straight with a nice centered MP... like zincs or the LX's and Premiers?

 

CSN's have a bit of a curl, but no where near as bad as the HTPs. I would liken them to the Premiers. 

The CSNs are my favorite for palm wax, and well worth the extra investment. Get a sample pack to start off with, so you have a few sizes to play with. I use the 7, 9, and 14 the most, but I do need the larger ones sometimes.

The CT for palm is outstanding on day 1, but the HT really needs a good two weeks to develop. Some oils I can get HT on a 7 day cure, but 14-20 gets the best results imo. 

 

Enjoy the testing! Once I figured it out, I fell in love with palm. For my personal use around the house, about half my candles are palm 1, and half are CBL125.

[calan]

Thanks @Sarah S

 

I'm really liking it so far. It was much easier to work with than I expected, based on all my reading. It's actually burning very nicely on my first "guess" at a CD18, and the curl has mellowed out as it gets deeper. Not much HT at all, but I went at the recommended 3% instead of the typical 6% that most seem to use, and it only cured for about 36 hours. I got impatient. 

I'd like to try the CSN's, but given the way CS dropped palm and now don't even show recommendations for wick sizes (even on the "show all" now), I'm hesitant to lock myself to a wick with one supplier that seems a bit flaky. And the shipping for a simple sample pack is too high IMHO.

Thinking about trying the Premiers I have since a few people have had luck with them, if I can come up with a good starting size for the 9 oz straight jars. Might start with something like a 765 and see what happens.

[calan]

First test candle. 3% Dragon's Blood with CD18 wick.
 


After first burn:



Just starting 3rd burn. MP is mostly centered now, even though it doesn't look like it in these pics.

Edited December 15, 2019 by calan

[calan]

[Sarah S]

That looks beautiful! Isn't Palm awesome???

Keep going with that, it looks good so far.

Sometimes 6%FO can be too strong in palm, it really depends. For DB, I wouldn't do more than 5% anyway, that's a strong one!

[calan]

1 hour ago, Sarah S said:

That looks beautiful! Isn't Palm awesome???

Keep going with that, it looks good so far.

Sometimes 6%FO can be too strong in palm, it really depends. For DB, I wouldn't do more than 5% anyway, that's a strong one!

Yep... I'm liking the GG palm so far. It's definitely different.

I just poured another wickless tester at 5% Woodland Foliage (pine) from FC. I'll let that set up a few days and then drill a hole and maybe try a Premier in it.

Edited December 16, 2019 by calan

[calan]

Update...

The CD-18 in the Dragon's Blood candle left wax on the sides, maybe 1/3 up from bottom...but the burn was good with so-so HT (but I didn't let it cure more than a couple of days).

I went up to a CD-20 for the next two (different FO's), and they are doing what everyone says they should...leaving a thin wall of wax, 1/8" to 1/4" and slowly eroding as the candle passes 1/3 to 1/2 way down. BUT, there is very little HT (again, short cure), and the burn rate is really high; almost twice that of a comparable parafin candle. Total estimated burn time went from about 42 hours with the CD-18 to around 27 with the CD-20, based on measured burn rates over 3 test burns. The FO's are different, but they burn similarly in parafin and PB600 waxes.

Should I go back to the CD-18 and live with a little leftover wax? (Maybe I was trimming it too short?)

Is the burn rate on palm just a lot higher than parafin or soy?

Edited December 19, 2019 by calan

[calan]

I've also read a few posts to references with LX wicks in palm. I have a sample pack of those and they work well in the other waxes with these 9 oz jars, so I might try one of those. 

If anyone has a recommended starting size for LX, feel free to jump in.

 

[Sarah S]

Hm, ok, I don't use CDs (in any wax), but I think you are correct that the 20 is too big for that jar.

 

There are a few things to keep in mind when working with palm wax:

- it has a high melt point, so it needs a lot of heat to get it going 

- once it melts, it is very viscous, so it needs a wick that can "draw up" a lot of wax

- it is an acidic wax, so it needs a wick that can withstand an acidic environment 

 

Thats why CSNs are so successful, they make big hot flames, they draw up a lot of wax, and they have a special treatment to withstand acidic wax. Some RRDs have the NST treatment for palm wax, so they also do well. 

 

Once we start using wicks meant for soy or parrafin, the common problems that arise are that the wicks don't burn hot enough, don't draw up enough wax, and may combust incompletely from the acidic wax. To overcome those problems, we use wicks that are much larger than what would be appropriate for soy or parrafin. Now the flame is hot enough to melt the palm wax, but the wick is so huge, it's drawing the wax too quickly and burning it off at much quicker rate. Also, because of the super fast combustion, the fragrance oil may be "burned off" instead of wafting through the air, making for poor throw. All that isn't to say that it's impossible to make a good palm candle with a series like LX, CD, HTP or the Premiers. It's definitely possible, you are just going to have to get really good a learning the signs of a good burn versus an adequate burn or poor burn.

 

Definitely give your palm candles a good two week cure. I know it's hard to wait, but they'd really do need that cure time for you to judge if the wick is throwing well or not.

 

It sounds like you are on the right track with leaving a shell that melts down. Palm is so different from other waxes.

 

I don't know if it will help, but I am going to attach some pics of my candles in various states of burn. 😁

 

This candle is is just a smidge under wicked, I used a CSN 9 and I think it would do better with a 12. I'm down to that last quarter of the jar, and while the sides are weeping down nicely, when you see the overhead view next some issues will be apparent.

 

 

This is the overhead view, and hopefully you can see there are multiple perimeters to the melt pool. That is to be expected when we are looking at the first half or so of a jar this size (that's a 3" jar), but this far down I want the melt pool to even itself out. The HT is only so-so, and I think in part it's the wick, but I also have a feeling this just not a powerhouse FO.

 

 

This is a multi-wick loaf style jar, with three Premier 745 wicks. They've been lit for about an hour here. This jar is 3" wide and about 8" long. The three 745s are not doing a good job here. The flames are small, and for it being the bottom of the container, the MPs are small. I know the sides look good, but just last night I peeled giant sheet of wax off the sides to put in my melter. 😂 I confess, I mess with my candles! Next time I pour this, I'll use 755s. I like Premiers for multi-wick jobs. If I were to try to wick this in CSNs, the smallest I could use would be a CSN 7, and even with just two wicks that would probably be over wicked. So case in point when an alternative wick series may be better. This candle is throwing great, btw. Christmas Splendor from NG, 6%, immediate strong HT from the first burn after a 9 day cure.

 

 

This candle above is absolute perfection. I have been burning it since the beginning of November. Generally three to four hour burns, once a week... how many hours is that? A lot, lol. You can see the sides have melted down beautifully. It had a shell up until maybe two burn ago, when the jar finally got hot enough to start pulling it down. The wax has been at the exact same level for several burns now, as the wick consumes the shell. The HT is phenomenal. That's a 16oz salsa jar with a CSN 14.

 

 

This is the top vie, and you can see it has just a bit of a ledge, but otherwise the MP is quite even. Honestly, this is probably due to a slightly off center wick and the slight curl to the wick. Don't mind the red, that's me playing with my candles again. 😆 I dipped the red candle's wicks, then used the same dipper on the green candle. This FO is Alpine Cheer from Flaming, at 6%. I love, love, love it, and it is throwing like crazy.

 

Sorry, I thought I had a couple pics of candles in the early stages of their burn, but I guess not. I really try not to pass final judgement on a wick until the very end of the burn. With palm wax, so much happens at the bottom of the jar. The kiss of death in the early stages would be an obvious problem like a teeny tiny flame or a tiki torch. Anything other than that, I'm going to let it burn and see what happens. Sometimes poor HT early on that develops into good HT further down is an indication that's the wick is close but need tweaking. Poor HT the whole time, accompanied by a good flame and burn behavior could mean it's the FO. 

 

Ok, sorry about the massive wall of text and photos, hopefully you can glean some good stuff out of all that. 😅

 

If if you can, get some pics of the candles you've been working on so we can see what's up.

 

[calan]

Thanks for the excellent info @Sarah S

 

I know the CSN's are ideal, but I'm just nervous about them. CS doesn't sell palm or even show wicking recommendations for them now (even if you click "all suggestions"), and I hate the thought of getting locked into one wick from one supplier. (I can't find them for sale as "VRL's" here in the U.S. either).

Surely there must be other wicks that are designed to stand up to the acidic waxes, right? 

EDIT:

Another thing... I didn't really want to pay $12 shipping for a sample pack, which probably has two sizes I would need, and then have to turn around and pay it again once I figure that out.   I'm using the smooth-sided 9 oz jars from LS, and maybe the small square mason jars from the local Wally World. They are basically the same opening size, something like 2-3/8" I think (I'm at the day job and can't remember for sure)... the biggest difference being the shoulders on the mason jar, which I assume will throw another wrench into the works when I try palm in them.

Are there 2 or 3 CSN sizes that I could be safe in assuming would cover those two jars?
 

Edited December 20, 2019 by calan

[Sarah S]

A CSN 7 or a CSN 9 would be your best bet.

I totally understand about being nervous about relying on one supplier. They left quite a few people high and dry when they stopped carrying palm wax. If you like how the CDs perform, by all means stick with them.

As far as I know there is no other consumer source for wicks specifically for palm wax. IMO a lot of companies are missing the boat when it comes to wicks and veggie based waxes.