Help with hot scent throw

[THicks]

I have put off joining this site and asking some questions all summer.  I have read a lot of the posts but I am going to go ahead and ask the same questions others have asked.

I used to play with making candles 14 years ago.  I had good HT but the wicks were never matched up properly.  I thought I would give it another try 1.5 years ago.  I thought I would be able to use the same waxes and would only need to match the wicks more precisely and be set.  I purchased cases of soy wax (2 444 and 1 402) and started testing wicks.  The square braid burned the best and then sent some to Wicks Unlimited and they confirmed it matched the wax.  I then started adding FO but got no HT.  I made several calls and was told I was putting the FO in too low, I should put it in around 175 or 180.  I tried that with still no HT.  I was told by others I was putting the FO in too high.  Tried that, still no HT.  I started asking if something had changed with the soy wax and was told for over 6 months that nothing had changed from 14 years ago.  I then found this site and found posts regarding the changes to soy waxes and then some people started admitting that everything had changed.  I then decided to go to paraffin.  This summer I decided to go all out and bought small quantities of 4630, 6570, 4786, 4794, 1286 and palm glass glow.  I sent several different ones to Wicks Unlimited and they sent back the LX series wicks as matches for all of them including the glass glow palm wax.  I tried the wicks in them but none of them produced HT.  I have been working on 4630 and using the wicks I have but have yet to have HT.  It has been 1.5 years working on this and I am ready to pack it all back up but before I do I thought I would try here to see if there is something I am missing (besides the HT) to get this going.  I used a book 14 years ago called Candlemaker's Companion and had better results but that's not working this time.  I used cotton core then but this time around the flat braid is being strongly recommended.  Even with over wicked jars back then I got good HT, now nothing.  This was suppose to supplement our income a little but so far has taken away from.  I am going to start from scratch with 4630 and no FO.  I am using canning jars that are just under 2.5" straight sided.  I was told to match the wick family to the wax first then move up or down within that family to match the FO's so I am going to try that.  All my testing so far has been constantly moving flames and no HT.  I've tried the LX, HTP, Zinc, Paper core, Cotton core.  I tried an Eco in the 4786 and it discolored the wax.  I don't use color and only 6% FO.  My husband says I have to be doing something wrong.  None of us have been able to smell anything and 7 year old's don't do good at being polite they just tell it like it is and she will tell you they don't smell.  It is so bad she asked Santa in her letter to him if he would help me with candles for my Christmas present.  Ha ha that's funny but she wants a swimming pool so we know her motives.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Another question:  if the wick is the appropriate family it will have a steady flame with minimal movement and no smoking and minimal mushrooming?  Ask me about a cow or hay - something on the farm but candles - I'm not fairing too well.  I can tell you how to not get HT but that's about it.

[bfroberts]

Where are you getting your fragrance and what scents are you using?  It could be as simple as that. 

[THicks]

So far I have tried Bitter Creek Cool Mountain Air and Elements Bath and Body Apple Cobbler Delight in the Harmony.  I have some from Aztec, Candle Science, and Candle Cocoon

[bfroberts]

What do you have from Candle Science?

 

[THicks]

peach nectar, macintosh apple, love spell, sea salt & orchid, cranberry marmalade, english garden, rain water

[bfroberts]

Every one of those should throw well in 4630 at 6% with minimal cure.  I've used them all in that wax.  Have you tried any of those scents in 4630?  LX should work great.  I'm thinking somewhere around LX 16, if memory serves.  A small candle isn't going to scent a large space, but any of those FO's will produce a very adequate HT in 4630 with LX, HTP, zinc or paper.

[THicks]

From my notes I tried the Marmalade with HTP 72 with no HT and I tried the LX with no FO and it looks like the LX 14 had a tall flame and smoke tails 6 minutes into the second burn

Do you recommend starting with no FO and find a wick family and then start adding FO after that and how long do you let them cure?  I have been adding FO around 145 - 150

[bfroberts]

It is helpful to know how your wax burns without FO.  That way, you can do a quick test candle with each new batch to make sure there have been no changes that will require wick adjustments.  4630 can be a bit inconsistent. I've had batches that were super soft, gooey and sticky followed by a batch that was super firm.  BUT, in my experience, 4630 burns better with FO than without, so don't give up on it based on an unscented test candle.
Cranberry Marm (the old version, I haven't tried the reformulated) is an excellent scent with a strong HT, but it requires wicking up a size or two in every wax I've used, so lets skip that one for the moment.

Pour another candle with 4630, Sea Salt & Orchid or Peach Nectar, LX 16 wick, and let it cure for a couple of days.  It will throw.  I guarantee it.  

 

ETA:  I assume you are using jelly jars, based on your description. That's what I based the wick suggestion on. 

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by bfroberts

[THicks]

Yes they are jelly jars.  I will get one poured and give it a try.  Thank you

[The Candle Nook]

Jumping in with my 2 cents for what it’s worth.... The reformulated cranberry apple marmalade from CS is totally different than the original and I wouldn’t be using that to try and restart candle making and figure out HT. I  agree with peach nectar. Or the macintosh apple (a strong FO in mho. But I use 464 and always wait 2 weeks for cure)

[THicks]

All the CS FO's were purchased in Oct 2018 so I don't know if any of them are pre or post reformulated.  With the soy do you find it takes a month or longer to reach full potential with HT?  Back then I was mixing 4630 and 444 and the HT was easy.  The flames were crazy but so was the HT.  I'm trying for a calm flame along with the HT but so far neither has been obtainable.

[The Candle Nook]

You have original CS cranberry marmalade and you should have great HT with that one....I started with soy - and yes - I always give a candle at least 2 weeks. Sometimes a month. And then sometimes a FO doesn’t work for me at all. I give up and move on to another. (Always a little bummed if I bought more than 2 oz tho...like OMGolive...smells like absolutely nothing in my wax. CT or HT. At 10% even). If I was going to branch out, I’d go with @bfroberts recommendations... I think it’s (honestly) just trial and error with whatever wax you wanna use. Biggest problem I find today (vs 2 years ago when I started) is all the companies reformulating the FO without phthalates...🙄🙄🙄. . 

Edited December 1, 2019 by The Candle Nook

[THicks]

I'm going to make some testers next week and see how it goes.  Take it slow and make detailed notes.  Thanks for the help.

[Sarah S]

@bfroberts and @The Candle Nook have great advice. Stick with the 4630 for a while and just work on nailing down that wax. It will throw really well when wicked correctly!

I use HTP wicks, and for what it's worth I think a 72 is too big for jelly jars. I'd go for a 62 or even a 52. Personally I don't like to use jelly jars beacuse their small size makes them tricky to wick, and they don't throw as well as I would like. I think maybe you are over wicking a smidge and that is causing your FO to combust too quickly, thereby negatively impacting your throw. See if bfrobert's wick recommendations help, or try a smaller HTP if you like that series. 

If you have some mason jars, maybe pour a couple of those to see if changing the jar helps. For a fruity fragrance like apple pie or peach nectar, I would start with a HTP 72 in a mason jar. Not sure what that would be in a zinc or LZ. 😁

Let us know how the testing goes!

Oh, I usually wait a couple days before burning even with paraffin wax, just to make sure everything has worked it's magic inside the jar. 😂😂😂

[THicks]

I made two testers with the peach nectar.  I put an lx 16 in the straight sided jelly jar and an htp 72 in a 3" mason jar.  I burned them and unless I was standing right next to them there was no HT.  No one in the house could smell them either.  I am wondering if it is a technique issue.  I heated the wax to 175 and added the FO at 165 using a candy thermometer.

[TallTayl]

22 minutes ago, THicks said:

I made two testers with the peach nectar.  I put an lx 16 in the straight sided jelly jar and an htp 72 in a 3" mason jar.  I burned them and unless I was standing right next to them there was no HT.  No one in the house could smell them either.  I am wondering if it is a technique issue.  I heated the wax to 175 and added the FO at 165 using a candy thermometer.

Do you have a wax melter, like a scentsy? If so, drop a little onto it.  If you can smell it, then you can be assured it is a wicking issue. You’ll just need to find a wick that hits the sweet spot in your wax/fo/container variables.

[THicks]

I have a potpourri crock simmering pot.  I will try it later tonight.  Are the heating and FO temps appropriate for this wax?

[THicks]

I tried the simmering pot and got the same results.  

[TallTayl]

I’m not understanding... how did you test it in a simmering pot? 

[THicks]

It is a 35 watt simmering pot.  I put some of the wax in the pot and when it melted the wax there was no HT.  It didn't get hot enough to "simmer" just melt.  It only melted the wax.

[bfroberts]

4 hours ago, THicks said:

I made two testers with the peach nectar.  I put an lx 16 in the straight sided jelly jar and an htp 72 in a 3" mason jar.  I burned them and unless I was standing right next to them there was no HT.  No one in the house could smell them either.  I am wondering if it is a technique issue.  I heated the wax to 175 and added the FO at 165 using a candy thermometer.

Peach Nectar throws great in 4630 and even if the wick was off a size or so, it would throw.  In what size space are you burning?  Are you near a vent or heat/ac return? 
I add FO at 185ish and stir a minute or so.  Peach Nectar isn’t difficult to blend.  I think you may have an air flow issue or candle nose.

[Forrest]

I have three guesses as to what the problem might be. The first is are you stirring well, I made a batch of candles where I didn't and got zero HT? The second is are you testing in a room that is not candle friendly, if I tested in my den I would think my candles had no HT. The third is could the problem be that you can't smell them? I had trouble smelling my candles because there was too much FO in the air in my house. I moved all my oils and candles to the garage and that solved the problem.

[THicks]

I spoke with a candle supplier yesterday at length and she told me to heat the wax (even soy) up to 185 and put the FO in at that point and I would definitely see a difference.  

I have burned purchased candles in the same place in the same room and can smell them.  My husband comes inside after working outside for hours and he can't smell my candles but he can smell the purchased ones.

I kept my wick notes from 14 years ago but didn't take temp notes and I do good to remember things from last week let alone 14 years ago.

I'm going to do the 185 temp and the only other thing I can suggest is someone who has the peach nectar to try doing a small candle at the temps I did and see if they get the same results I did - melted to 175, put FO in at 165 per candy thermometer, 158 per infrared and then pour.  I was comparing the temp ranges between the candy and the infrared so that is why there are two different temp gauges used.

The worse that can happen is I am that one person that just can't make candles.

 

 

[bfroberts]

46 minutes ago, THicks said:

I spoke with a candle supplier yesterday at length and she told me to heat the wax (even soy) up to 185 and put the FO in at that point and I would definitely see a difference.  

I have burned purchased candles in the same place in the same room and can smell them.  My husband comes inside after working outside for hours and he can't smell my candles but he can smell the purchased ones.

I kept my wick notes from 14 years ago but didn't take temp notes and I do good to remember things from last week let alone 14 years ago.

I'm going to do the 185 temp and the only other thing I can suggest is someone who has the peach nectar to try doing a small candle at the temps I did and see if they get the same results I did - melted to 175, put FO in at 165 per candy thermometer, 158 per infrared and then pour.  I was comparing the temp ranges between the candy and the infrared so that is why there are two different temp gauges used.

The worse that can happen is I am that one person that just can't make candles.

 

 

I have made Peach Nectar at 6% in 16oz square masons with 4630 & zinc countless times.  It throws very well.  It will scent an open 800sq ft space with 9’ ceilings (that’s my testing area ATM). This has always been a super solid performer for me.  If changing your temp doesn’t solve the problem, put it away for a week to cure a bit longer.  Keep us posted.  Good luck.

[THicks]

 It has been a while but I was going to get back with the testing.  I tested the Peach Nectar in the square mason jar several different times allowing a couple of weeks to cure and still didn't get a hot throw from it.  I have been testing a sample FO from Flaming Candle in the 4630 and we are smelling it much better.  I've been testing with LX and Premier wicks but I'm going to have to order more 4630 if I continue with this.