strugglebrother Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Hi, Certain types of waxes hold different percentage of fragrance oil. Is this percentage based on just the amount or can it vary due to what different fragrance oils are diluted with (aka what solvent is used)? Let's say I want to use a fragrance from super concentrate (before any dilution has taken place). Can I load the wax with much more fragrance than with a manufactured fragrance oil where dilution has taken place. This if I'm just going by the % load that the manufacturer has specified with the wax? I know it's trial and error but as there is so many fragrance oils out there and they all use different dilution I'm more wondering if it's the fluid mass in total that messes with the wax or the concentrate of the fragrance itself that has a limit of binding with the wax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becky Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 I believe it would be the total "fluid mass" it can hold; doesn't matter how strong it is. Wax is like a sponge, it can only hold up to a certain percent of "fluid". Does that make sense? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OldGlory Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 I would want that question to be answered by a representative of the wax company. I feel like Becky is probably right, but 'how much FO the wax will hold' and 'how much FO the wax/wick can utilize' could be 2 different questions/answers. More is not always better when it comes to FO in wax. Sometimes it's just more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becky Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Sooo true, OldGlory! Good point! Wicking is a whole different ball game with different amounts of FO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OldGlory Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 2 hours ago, strugglebrother said: Hi, Certain types of waxes hold different percentage of fragrance oil. Is this percentage based on just the amount or can it vary due to what different fragrance oils are diluted with (aka what solvent is used)? Let's say I want to use a fragrance from super concentrate (before any dilution has taken place). Can I load the wax with much more fragrance than with a manufactured fragrance oil where dilution has taken place. This if I'm just going by the % load that the manufacturer has specified with the wax? I know it's trial and error but as there is so many fragrance oils out there and they all use different dilution I'm more wondering if it's the fluid mass in total that messes with the wax or the concentrate of the fragrance itself that has a limit of binding with the wax? Wait - "they all use different dilution"? Where are you getting this information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strugglebrother Posted March 15, 2016 Author Share Posted March 15, 2016 Yes, if it is the fluid mass it would be much easier to get a stronger throw... AKA work with fragrance of more concentrate.. I can't seem to find any clear information. Only from the candle stores who want to sell their own FO's and FO's differs a LOT. Yes, different dilutions.. Used to be Diethyl Phthalate and in some cases still is. Now probably IPM, DOA or something else.. I'm also curious to hear if anyone have done any testing with different solvents in fragrances? If they enhance throw or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becky Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 You would be better contacting a fragrance manufacturer, and asking them. I know some manufacturers can give you an $8.00 per lb. price and a $20.00 per lb. price on the same fragrance. There is where you would ask what solvents are used. I'm sure they can give you more info on what they "cut" it with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OldGlory Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 If you are talking about candles, a greater fragrance load does not always mean a better fragrance throw. I would suggest going to candles.org to read about the function of the wick. The wax (and any additives already in the wax or subesequently added), fragrance, wick, and container(size, shape) are all partners in the overall function of the candle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strugglebrother Posted March 15, 2016 Author Share Posted March 15, 2016 I'm thinking more about better fragrance concentration than actually load... If you are using a FO with dilution that is taking up space of those 10 % you can load a candle with you would be much better with a raw ingredient that is more concentrated and don't fill up those 10 %.. But my uncertainty is in regards to if it's actually the load or how the fragrance binds with the wax that is most important. But yeah, I'm gonna pick up the phone and call a few wax manufacturers and fragrance houses and ask. Reading on these online stores about what is good or not is usually just a big sales pitch for their own FO's to be used with what ever wax they are selling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Mmmm that is not necessarily the whole story. Additives like DEP, IPM, etc would wreak havoc with soap making. We would know immediately if those additives were in there since the soap would not perform. The aroma chemicals used have a lot to do with it too. And fixatives. Certainly quality of fragrance oils differ from vendor to vendor/ lab to lab. Using your assumption of more highly concentrated aroma chemicals, I would actually prefer LESS fragrance in a candle as it would, theoretically, burn cleaner. And the cost would be more favorable with less. As others have said above, often less is more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Frankly, I dislike the practice of "Premium" fragrances. There is no way you are able to quantify the contents of fragrance oil without the use of a sophisticated lab. Dupes are case in point. The dupe is not an exact replica but a close approximation to the formulary. This nonsense is about offering us the real deal so that our products will be competitive with main stream manufactured candles. I can understand needing a wax that will hold more fragrance oil for some applications like melts but otherwise, it doesn't make sense to load a candle with 10% fragrance and expect that it will be any more concentrated than a 6 or 7% load. I can tell you that if you use a quality oil like Candle Cocoon's Vanilla Voodoo; loading it up past 6% would probably destroy your sinus cavity. You might pay more but in the long run its profitable because you use less and get the same result. Vote for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleflame Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Hi! I have just reprised an old candlemaking hobby. It seems a lot has changed, including my tried and true supplier of old seems to be out of business. AND I remember very little about the details of the art. I am trying to work out the details of making impressively scented candles and would love some input. This is what I am doing: Heating GW464 to 185, working out my color while heating and removing from heat. On the scale, I let the temp drop to 180 and add my FO. I am stirring for 2 minutes after but I am stirring with a fondue fork, I probably need a better stirring device. Then I am letting the temp drop to around 130-140 to pour into non-pre-heated metal jars that are exactly 3 inches in diameter (candlescience 8 ounce jars). I am using ECO10 wicking. I have had some candles that just don't have any HT, but I must admit that I have had some inconsistencies in my method. I am now logging my process and noting any discrepancies. I am using the max FO for GW464 which is listed at 9% I am calculating this by using a basic recipe of 10 ounces (weighed) wax to 1 ounce FO which would put the final concentration of FO at .091 (1 ounce FO divided by total weight of 11 ounces) I 4x this recipe for larger batches of candles. HERE are my quandaries: AM I calculating Fragrance load correctly? WHY would I use 6-7% FO rather than the max that the wax can handle? If I want the max HT, don't I need to max out the fragrance load? Does GW 464 really require a 2 week curing period? I do have a little mottling on the top of some batches of candles, but it really hasn't bothered me, adds character. But I did see a post about letting the wax get "slushy" then re-heating some before pouring, I guess the idea there is to give the candles a smoother top. I have also seen that some people pour this wax at @160 which is way above the recommended pouring temp. Any insight on this would be appreciated as well. What am I missing? What are the answers to the questions that I don't know to ask Thank you in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 This is a hard question to answer without knowing the molecular structure of both the wax and fragrance oil that you are using. You really would need to consult with an organic chemist to get a clear answer on this. The amount of fragrance that any one wax could hold is not necessarily dependent on how much fluid you add to it, but by how well the fragrance molecules can bind to the wax molecules. The general term "wax" is defined by its water insolubility, and its saturated, hydrocarbon molecules that are generally straight chains but can also have side chains. Paraffin is straight chained and completely saturated. Paraffin is also non-polar (does not have an unequal charge distribution around the molecule) and forms bonds best with other non-polar fragrance oils via Van der Waals forces. These are weak, hydrogen bonds, unlike covalent bonds which actually form the molecules themselves, and unlike ionic bonds which is how polar molecules form bonds (i.e. salts). The more a fragrance oil mimics the molecular structure of the wax you are using, the more fragrance oil the wax will be able to bond with. The is called miscibility, which is just a fancy way of saying that like mixes with like. Fragrance oils have historically been formulated to work with paraffin waxes, which is why you may have problems with vegetable waxes and scent throw. Vegetable waxes are not completely saturated like paraffin. Vegetable oils do go through harsh processes to make them more saturated, but even after this, they are not completely saturated. This makes vegetable waxes more polar, and less miscible with the fragrance oils which are currently available. Soy wax is water soluble, and technically is not a wax. You can't mix oil and water, and water soluble wax is not as miscible with fragrance/essential oils as paraffin is, which has a more similar molecular structure. This is the main reason for soy wax's poor scent throw. The chemistry of the wax itself doesn't allow it to bond to the fragrance oils as well as paraffin. Theoretically, you should be able to mix any amount of fragrance with wax as long there structure is similar enough. This is the case with things such as alcohol and water, which are miscible in any proportion. Again, unless you know the molecular structure of you wax and fragrance oils, and have a background in the organic chemistry, it will be very hard to tell how just how much fragrance your wax will hold. It is probably better to go by the manufacturers instructions. Trying to guess how much a fragrance has been diluted will not be very fruitful, because you don't know with what it has been diluted and how this dilution agent will affect the chemistry of your wax and it's ability to bind fragrance oils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becky Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Here comes the soy wax retaliation comments, head for cover! LOL 17 minutes ago, hapathy said: Trying to guess how much a fragrance has been diluted will not be very fruitful, because you don't know with what it has been diluted and how this dilution agent will affect the chemistry of your wax and it's ability to bind fragrance oils. In a nutshell! In hindsight, I doubt the manufacturers would divulge this info anyway, strugglebrother! I'd be curious to see what answer you get, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleflame Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 This has been very enlightening... I will attempt to re-post in a more appropriate thread, if I can find one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OldGlory Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 littleflame, you can start a new thread if you want. There are numerous threads about the 2 methods of figuring % of fragrance load, so that info is readily available. Many of us have offered our suggestions on how much FO works for us in our various waxes, but the final choice is yours and simply requires testing. We do what we do because that's what works for us. Regardless of the results anyone else gets, you should do what works for you. I do not heat my soy containers, and I poured at 145-150. Also I use Premier wicks, and there are tons of thread on wick preferences in the veggie wax section. You'll figure it out! Just give yourself time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicky_CO Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 50 minutes ago, thelittleflame said: This has been very enlightening... I will attempt to re-post in a more appropriate thread, if I can find one. A lot of time it is better to start your own thread, it is hard to get answers in an established thread when people get a little off topic or get intense about something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittleflame Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Thank you OldGlory and Vicky_Co... I appreciate your insight. Onward to testing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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