chuck_35550 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 What's the secret to a slow moving recipe for adequate swirling time? Lately, it seems like all my formulas move really fast and there isn't time to do fancy swirling. The milk formulas are the worst but it seems like my stick blender is too powerful? Does that make sense? I use silk in my lye solution and soap at 80 degrees with a 2:1 water ratio but a couple of turns with the sb and wham I got soap! Quiet Girl's formula is the slowest moving one I use but there are a couple of others that I really like the properties they give the soap. I really need to come to Athens and sit at the feet of the soap queen (you know who you are and I'm not crazy). Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcandleattic Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Do you use a high percentage of solid oils (like PKO, Cocoa butter) etc., That will contribute to a fast trace time. Also, how long do you stick blend? I know you said a couple turns, but does that mean 10 seconds? 20-30? or longer? I try to sb in short 10 -20 second burst, hand stir, back to sb until I reach just that side of emulsification, then split my batter into sections for swirling. That also gives me more time. I soap at RT and if I soap with a well behaved FO I usually have lots of time to swirl. HTH - Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarieJeanette Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Well, I doubt very much that I'm the soap queen you speak of, lol, but I find that among other things, much depends on the fats being used (in regards to their melting points), and also the FOs (if they are frisky or not).Like yourself, I soap with silk at a 2:1 ratio, and I also sometimes use goat milk, and I've found that with my formulas that contain a fair amount of hydrogenated PKO or other high-stearic fats such as cocoa butter, mango butter, etc.., that if I soap them at too low of a temperature (around 80F or 90F), I'll get what seems to be instant soap the moment I give a blast of my SB right after adding the lye and before I've even added my FO. But if I soap the same formula anywhere between 110F -120F, all goes smoothly and I have plenty of time to play (just as long as my FO is one that behaves nicely, that is). Anyway, what I learned is that the seemingly "instant soap" phenomenon I was experiencing was really not actual soap as much as it was the PKO and other hard fats precipitating out of the solution because of the temps falling too much below their melting points before the chemical heat reaction of the lye could kick in and keep them in liquid/melted suspension to be able to saponify them properly. In the end, I still got soap, but my bars from these batches were peppered with 'stearic spots'.My advice would be take a look at your fats and their melting points, adjust your temps accordingly, then go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara AL Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Steve try to soap around 95-100 degrees. I have a new Cuisinart stick blender from Costco that has a turn dial on top I keep it on low.Steve I soap at 35% water if that helps. Edited January 15, 2014 by Barbara AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OldGlory Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Increase your water %, use a whisk - no sb. That will slow you down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Thanks for the advice everybody. I was using a formula from "Scientific Soapmaking: The Chemistry of the Cold Process" called a "Duckbar" which uses the holy trinity of oils: olive (pomace), palm and coconut. It does use castor but the formula is very balanced; maybe the pomace hurried things up. The bars are very nice and look ok for a hurry up swirl in the pot but I had everything ready for a mantra swirl. The fo was Sweetpea and Rhubarb and I used powdered gm in a base of heavy cream which was added at the end with the fo. Talk about acceleration! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcandleattic Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Thanks for the advice everybody. I was using a formula from "Scientific Soapmaking: The Chemistry of the Cold Process" called a "Duckbar" which uses the holy trinity of oils: olive (pomace), palm and coconut. It does use castor but the formula is very balanced; maybe the pomace hurried things up. The bars are very nice and look ok for a hurry up swirl in the pot but I had everything ready for a mantra swirl. The fo was Sweetpea and Rhubarb and I used powdered gm in a base of heavy cream which was added at the end with the fo. Talk about acceleration!it could possibly be the FO. I know Peaks Sweet Pea accelerates on me quite a lot and if I'm not careful will also rice. (as most florals for me do! ) I would be willing to bet this is the culprit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 I used to watch my temp for a 2 degree increase as a sign to begin seperating for swirling but this went into high gear saponification and it worried me that the milk might burn. There's something wrong in my process but I can't put a finger on it. It just bugs me to have the soap dictate me instead of the other way around. Thanks again.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scented Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I have a fairly slow moving recipe that has any combination of olive/RBO, lard, palm, soy in it. If I'm heavy on the sb then it will move, but everything will. I have a milk & honey fragrance that, without milk added, will take its sweet time to move which is both a blessing and not. If I add milk though, it's a mover. However I soap with 30 on soapcalc except if I'm going with a floral, then I boost the water. That doesn't help much I imagine, because I'm not giving percentages, but the olive/rbo amounts to 25%, lard, palm and soy (which I want to replace) amounts to about 28% and butters are in there, but only at about 5%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 The 'Thermal Transfer' method has solved a load of aceleration anxiety for me. My formula should be soap on a stick every time, according to all the myths, as it contains pomace, shea, cocoa butter, castor along with coconut and palm. I SF at 6-7% usually and use a 40-45% lye solution. I can multi color swirl florals like those mentioned above. Very basically, you use hot lye solution to melt your hard oils, then add liquid oils last. If you think it might help i will post my whole process.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted January 17, 2014 Author Share Posted January 17, 2014 I've seen this before and have never given it a try. I think it would be awesome if you're willing to share. It seems like my soaping techniques were better or something is amiss. I get great results with my formula for making cupcakes but the swirling is hit or miss and it always makes me feel dense. Thanks.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 OK.First measure out your hard hard oils into the soap pot.Next, measure the liquid oils into a separate pot/pitcher.Make the lye solution. When the lye solution gets clear, and is still super hot, pour it into the pot of solid oils. Stir once in a while to move the heated, melted oils around and expose more melting oils to the lye. Depending on your batch size, this can take from 2-10 minutes. The soap 'batter' in the pot will start to look thick, like cake batter.Pour in the liquid oils, reserving a bit to mix your fragrance into (optional). Stir, and use your stick blender in short bursts until you see it look uniform. At this stage, my formula thins to about the thickness of whole milk.Add the fragrance (optional), split to color, etc. and pour into your molds.Notes:When it is very cold in my shop I may melt the cocoa butter and sometimes the shea first. I could let the heat of the lye solution do the job, but sometimes it is just so cold the lye solution does not have enough oomph to melt it enough IMO. I can get around this by adding the hard oils to the pot one at a time, in the order of their melt point (cocoa butter first, then shea, palm and finally coconut for me). I tend to work on several batches at a time, all in different stages of the melt, so I choose to do the hard oils in one go so I don't forget anything.If the hard oils seem to get too cool during the melt, I can heat the liquid oils a bit before adding them to the pot. (isn't it nice to have OPTIONS!!?) This only happens when my batches are super small (like 16 ounces) and my shop is very very cold. When the hot lye solution (I use 40% usually) mixes with the hard oils/butters the temp when it all finally melts is 120*F. I use a whisk and stick blend as needed to finish the job if some of the hard oils remain as soft blobs. The thickness is similar to cake batter in my formula which is pretty heavy on solid oils. When I add the liquid oils a(reserving a bit to mix the fragrance with) the temp in the soap pot drops to 100, then climbs steadily back to 110 as I stir/stick blend. The thickness of the whole solution is like light chocolate milk leaving me plenty of time to thoroughly mix fragrance and split for colors. Sometimes I have to chase the mixture with a stick blender to get it thick enough for thicker swirls. I took temps for several batches over several days and the temps were all consistent within a degree or two. *caveat* when making milk soaps I do melt the hard oils to a slurry (not fully melted they still look opaque) before adding the milk/lye solution. Since I use a totally frozen block of milk by the time the lye melts the milk, the overall solution doesn't have enough heat to melt the hard oils well enough in my formula. The rest is the same. I can achieve nice pale milk soaps with swirls galore this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 I really appreciate your generosity . Can't wait to apply this method in my next soaping session. This board (thank you Peaks) is an important wealth of archived knowledge, a healthy discussion for technique and a friendly guidance for those initates beginning the arduous trial and error journey into the world of hand crafting. No one should expect exact details of hard earned formulations or for short cuts past experience but basic information that saves anyone from unnecessary expense, frustration and often cause for quitting. Thanks to moderators and all the contributors who keep me coming back.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 My pleasure, Steve. I hope it helps with your formula. I was bound and determined to find a way to make my "impossible" formula swirlable A few close soaper friends sent their fast-moving formulas to me, and the method worked just as well with theirs as my own. They now use the method successfully too. It takes a couple of tries to get the timing and feel, but once you observe how it works, I think you'll gain some decent working time.Let me know how it goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanutta Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Thank you for sharing! I have the same problem with fast tracing soap, will try this method next time I make soap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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