Who put the soap in the C3?

It's not just a heat up mix and pour wax for me.

Ahhhh, now we get to the bottom line! I don't think ANY soy wax can be characterized as a "melt & pour" wax and I am not aware that NatureWax has ever been marketed as such! I don't think ANYONE has ever truthfully described soy wax as "easy." NatureWax C3 is a middle-of-the-road soy wax in that it can produce a candle with a beautiful, relatively stable texture with great scent throw IF it is poured correctly. Using additives helps considerably and is even mentioned on the C3 Handling sheet (to enhance scent throw).

the only thing I've ever gotten to work for me to get rid of the air bubbles is to stir very slowly, and to tap like the dickens after stirring, after letting it set, and also after pouring.

I have used C3 for the past 4 years and have not found this to be true of it in general. The ONLY time we have had problems with air bubbles is when our procedures allowed the bubbles (released as the wax first melts) to remain and we poured so cool that the bubbles were trapped. The palm waxes (pillar & container blends) we use also release bubbles at the same stage of melting. Ecosoya PB does the same thing. NatureWax V1 has bubbles at that point, too. The bubbles disappear when the wax is heated to 185°F-200°F and gently stirred. "Stirring gently" is keeping the wax in motion without creating deep waves with white caps on the surface!

We typically tap all of our candles (palm & soy) as they are setting up to release any trapped air bubbles that may have collected on or near the wick. That's just standard sinkhole prevention! We don't spend much time on this, however. I have never observed any bubbles clinging to the sides of a clean container nor found a reason to "heat up the sides" to release them. It just sounds to me like you are heating and pouring the wax at the wrong temps and expecting that one should only have to "melt & pour" to obtain a great looking, quality candle.

I think you are giving C3 a bad rap. I'm sorry you are having problems and there seems to be some evidence that Elevance DID release a bad batch right after they took over from Cargill, but to my knowledge, that was one batch! If this were a general characteristic of their formula, others would not be able to produce candles that do NOT possess the flaws about which you are complaining.

If your business requires a "melt & pour" wax, then a parasoy blend would come a lot closer to the concept you desire than any soy wax, but please be fair: it isn't that the product is at fault, it is that the procedures for making the product work right do not meet your personal requirements.

Stella I think you're taking my words and reading them how you want them to be. I'm fully aware of how this wax works, I've been using it for 6 years as a business and for 2 years before that as a hobby.

I'm not going to argue this with you. I simply was asking IF anyone else had come across this. It was JUST a question. I'm fully aware of what this was entails to create a great product.

I know what I'm experiencing with this wax is not normal. Obviously I didn't explain it well enough for someone who hasn't encountered it to understand.

I will figure this out with the manuf. myself...just thought it was worth asking if anyone else had encountered it. Please do not speak to me as if I have no idea what I'm doing/talking about. I think it's rather rude and I refuse to endulge you in any arguments over it. Seems that's all you're after.

Hey girl! (Sabrina)

You do repours if I remember don't you? Well the bubbles that your getting; won't the repour take care of it? I automatically always plan for that because I never have had a 1 pour....Are you saying your getting bubbles on the sides? Well, do you mean that after the candle has hardened, you can actually see bubbles clinging to the walls? hmmmmm...

You know what I just had to do recently? Well after I melt the wax at up to 185 to 190...I'm now pouring so much hotter....like 180......Don't know what happened, but its working like a charm for me now....even better b/4 when I poured at 159- 162.... And I have completely done away with warming the jars too...I found out that was a waste of time for me...so I'm even pouring in cool jars....lol....believe it or not! lol

Geesh, hope you get your problem solved...now I'll be looking for bubbles on my walls! lol

Trapp

Since I started this thread, I wanted to jump back in and make note that the C3 I just recently ordered is exhibiting some strange behavior again. When I originally started this thread the C3 had soapy bubbles on the top when melted...almost a soapy appearance floating on it. If I poured cooler, 125F-135F the bubbles were throughout the jars especially along the sides. It was annoying. If found the heat gun did help take away some of the bubbles as well as heating the wax higher. This problem seemed corrected in the next 4 - 50# boxes I purchased. I purchase all my wax from the Jar Store. The latest ones not only have alot of bubbles but the consistency is really different. It never really melts to a clear oil like it used too. It's much more emulsified and the bubbles are definitely back. Possibly it's the same problem that Elevance stated at the time of original problem; they said their mixing method was incorporating bubbles and they were correcting it. Anyway, my turkey fryer also crackles and sizzles with these batches which it never did before. Just for the heck of it, I melted some in my presto pot and experienced the same thing. Little bubbles near the heat source and sizzling...Almost like there's water in it....I have found that heating higher 200F helps with the bubbles but even higher temps don't change the consistency. As for how the candles come out, I pour much hotter now, 175F-180F and I don't get any frosting....I do have to do repours because the tops still get sink holes....some of this is probably worse than normal because of my jar being tall. Wet spots still come and go but other than that it seems to behave like C3 as far as burn and throw. I can provide Lot numbers if someone wants them but I'm thinking pouring hotter is the solution as Trapp also confirmed....Sabrina, HTH.

Sorry, but I can't report any problems. I heat to 185°F & pour at 165°F. I do use USA which improves the texture of the wax, but it has always improved the texture even back in the Cargill days... I temper the wax which may be the difference and I stir a lot to prevent the wax from overheating on the bottom by the element. Even if there is a little moisture on the wax flakes from condensation, warming it longer should allow the water to evaporate. I just don't know why you have so much bubble trouble...

Maybe C3 just isn't the wax for you and you should try a different brand to see if you have better luck.

Hi Stella...

Thanks for jumping in....I like Sabrina have been using this wax for years now so I feel I have a good background on how it acts. Note, it's only been since Elevance took over that I've seen any of these inconsistences. I also use USA and stir to temper the wax....my heating and pouring temps are similiar to yours except now I'm heating a bit hotter to deal with the changes.

I'm wondering if the problems I and others are seeing have anything to do with where the wax I purchase is being manufactured. From discussing with Elevance I understand there are several mfg plants. I assume different suppliers get there wax shipped from the plant that's closest to them. Since you seem to get consistent C3, a couple of questions: Do you always purchase from the same supplier? How much wax do you go through? From the time I experienced the initial problem until now...I think I have purchased approx 10 50# boxes of wax and the middle 7 were fine. I have no intention of switching waxes but I think it's important for other board members that experience inconsistencies with C3 to update other board members. As I said, I used many boxes that were fine until the most recent. You may find you experience this in a future box and if so, you will understand immediately what this thread has attempted to explain.....

Good reasoning, Brenda, and you may be exactly right about only one of many plants being the culprit; however, the ONLY way to track this issue is by listing the Lot numbers from questioned cases, so please post them - the WHOLE number. There's no sense in discussing anything without the Lot numbers...

I also noted another change on the Elevance label... The Cargill label used to state: "Mfg. by Cargill..., Minneapolis, MN..." the Elevance label I looked at says: Mfg. for: Bolingbrook, IL... 877-216-2795." (I abbreviated but included the important parts of the label wording).

Now Elevance is located in that city & state and that's their telephone number, so why doesn't the label say "Manufactured BY Elevance"? Is NatureWax C3 being manufactured by another company's plant (or plants) and then private branded with the Elevance & Naturewax logos? I thought that Elevance was manufacturing it now... apparently not?

I think it's important for other board members that experience inconsistencies with C3 to update other board members

Brenda, I think you said earlier in the thread that you buy your C3 from The Jar Store - have they helped you with this? I think it's important to for other members to know which suppliers are selling questionable C3 and whether they have been helpful to those of you who buy wax from them... Since you are their customer, they should be leaning on Elevance for you, or at least, with you, since they ARE the distributors for the Elevance/Cargill/NatureWax product...

This is of particular concern because many suppliers break up cases to sell smaller quantities to folks who are new to candlemaking, don't use much C3, or are sampling it. Since the 10# bags never have any lot number data on them, it would be impossible to guess how many inconsistent bags of C3 could be sold in those smaller quantities... BTW, that goes not only for NatureWax C3, but every other brand of wax on the market, unless the supplier labels their smaller quantities with the lot numbers from the cases being used (which seems like a very good idea to me).

While I am not in favor of jumping quickly to assign blame to manufacturers or distributors every time someone reports a difficulty with their wax, IF this issue is SERIOUS enough to track as an ongoing issue, AND the distributors & manufacturer are dragging their feet about resolving it with the customers who purchased C3 in good faith, then let's stop mincing words - post Lot numbers & name names so this issue either gets resolved or the disinterested suppliers & manufacturer get "BUYcotted" for ignoring the issue & providing poor customer service.

Busy candlemakers do not have TIME to continually yap on the phone, post problems on forums, send emails, samples to chase down issues like this. Either this needs to be resolved or we all need to move on from this wax until such time as the issues ARE resolved.

The lot number of the box I justed finished is:

L9I24 12:09

The box states C3 Container Wax Flake Item #13C2030CT Net wt 50lbs

Manufactured for: Bolingbrook, IL

The other two boxes that are currently unopened have the lot numbers:

L9I24 12:09 and L9I24 12:11

All of the above boxes were purchased at the Jar Store and I pretty much purchase from them exclusively. However I did order 1 box from Fillmore a couple of months ago because the Jar Store was out. That box did not have this problem but neither did several of Jar Store ones previous to it.

I did contact the Jar Store today and they have not had any reports from other customers about problems with the wax. They suggested I contact Elevance and let them know what I find out. They also said they weren't sure if there were multiple mfg'ing locations and if there were, they didn't know where there's came from. I have hung in with them because they are local to me and I don't incur shipping which an expense I would love to avoid.

I also contacted Elevance Customer Support and gave them my Lot Numbers and they are working with their Technical Support to give me an update on what the problem may be. They said they would get back to me this afternooon. I can't really say that based on the last episode and now this one, that Elevance has not taken each incident seriously. However, I certainly feel they owe an explanation as to what the problem is with their inconsistencies in the wax since they took over. As soon as I hear I will update the board. In the meantime, if anyone is having problems now, please do as Stella has suggested and post

Supplier and Lot Numbers so we can compare notes.

Thanks

Ok I have some positive info based on some questions I asked Elevance.

I was told that Cargill Mfgs C3 for Elevance, that's why the wording on the boxes has changed since Elevance took over. All of the wax is mfg'd in Charlotte, NC and ships from there to suppliers. So that is good news, although it doesn't really explain the inconsistent lots. They are still researching the lots number I sent them and will let me know when they figure out what's going on. I explained that there are other Candle Makers who have experienced these problems and they have been going on intermittently, in my case, since this past February. They have assured me that they take feedback from their customers very seriously and have forwarded my summary of the inconsistencies onto mgmt.......other than that I don't have more to report other than I have a ton of candles to make this weekend and I'm hoping the next box I open has been blessed by the "non bubbly fairy godmother" Wish me luck! :tiptoe:

Hey BLT..

I have 14 cases of the lot you have.

They times on mine are 10:47.

I have not had any problems your are experiencing other than bubbles when melting. But then I mix another type of soy wax and it tames the bubbles.

I do know exactly what you are going thru with the spitting, bubbling and color not going clear.

I had this problem with the C-3 awhile back and posted on here about it. I even posted pictures. Mine looked like someone thru water in the wax when I would melt it. It also then had wormy type threads that would appear after melting.:rolleyes2 Could not see it in the wax flakes, but when melted all sorts of weird crap happened.

My supplier was wonderful when I told them. He contacted his supplier and replaced my bad boxes. Cargill/Elevance ( It was when Elevance first took over) told him.. Sometimes these things happen. That it could be oil from the machines they use at Evelance factory, hence why same batches with different times on the boxes perform differently. Could be why I am not having the same issues as you. They could have done something different to the machines that produce the batches during your time frame. Which is why it is effecting you and not me.. Mabye they just cleaned their machines that morning and water got in your batch.. Ya know...

I have been there with the C-3. This happened only once to me. Otherwise the C-3 has been very consistant for me.

Like you said, you know your wax. So keep on top of it and keep us posted.

ETS: Here is a picture of the Bad C-3 bubbling. Temp was only at 175!!!

As you know, this is not normal..

You could here is popping like there was water in it.. Then when it cooled it was dirty and had threads in it.. You could even see oily wormy things in it as it cooled down.. HTH

Here it is cooling. Not clear, yellow and junk floating on top..

Hi Maryann,

I just wanted to follow up on the questions that you had regarding our C-3 product.

Typically, you will heat the wax to 170 deg F, add your fragrance and dye, then pour it at 163 deg F with approx. ambient temperature is 73 deg F.

Things to watch when using C-3 to make candles – Keep track of the ambient air temperature since that can be your friend or enemy when pouring soy candles. A ambient room temperature of approximately 75 deg F and pouring the wax at 160 deg F should produce a nice looking candle. This is based on many years of working with this wax. If the ambient temperature of your room is closer to 80 deg F, or higher, then you would want to lower the pour temperature so that you get the same looking candle. The lowest temperature that I would suggest is 130 deg F for the C-3 wax, below that temperature you could end up with clumping. If the ambient temperature is below 70 deg F I would suggest that you pour the candle at a slight higher temperature to get a good looking candle. Spacing between the candles is also very important to getting a nice looking candle. I suggest that you have at least 1.5 inches all the way around the candle

I have also attached a graphical view of what I am talking about that shows the results of each of these cases.

Kindest Regards,

Larry

This is my response from them. I also had 2 boxes L9I24 and they are bad. Looks like soap in it and when it dries looks like cottage cheese. The company needs to do something about this and email back to Larry that I do know how to pour candles and at what temp, been using C3 for 5 years.

Will let you know when they response to me.

That was the exact letter word for word that they sent me .. that's all they did was change the name......very frustrating that they are assuming the problem is with the candlemaker and not with the product even after having been contacted by multiple people with the same problem....

Maybe we all should email Larry and ask why he is sending the same email to everyone. That if things are not taken care of we should find another mfg that makes C3. This is not good business!!!

Maybe we all should email Larry and ask why he is sending the same email to everyone. That if things are not taken care of we should find another mfg that makes C3. This is not good business!!!

There is no other manufacturer - Elevance is who makes it, period. I think that Elevance should receive a link to this topic so that they can see how upset their customers are. I also believe that if a bad product is purchased from an authorized distributor (supplier), that company should be advocating for THEIR customer(s) - ie. US - to their Elevance rep since sellng a bum product makes the supplier look bad even though they are simply a middle man between the manufacturer (Elevance) and the end user (us).

As an aside - I DO think the handling information Larry, et al provided in the email should be read and followed by all users of C3. The information on ambient air temp and pouring temp relationship cannot be ignored! I've noted these same relationships for some time, which I discovered by trial and error. However, it has no bearing in this particular issue because the batch is bad, period.

Don't lay down on this one, y'all - I understand that many folks have problems because they do not understand how to work with C3 but that is NOT the case here and the squeaky wheel gets the oil! Stay on 'em!! Call 'em on the phone if you have this issue from this batch and keep fussing until SOMEONE LISTENS!!! Only people who have had this issue can rightfully complain to the company, so it's up to those of you who have had this problem to stay on them. Sure would hate for fellow C3 users to boycott ALL C3 because Elevance refused to take legitimate complaints seriously.

Good luck and please keep us updated!

Update:

Contacted Elevance today via email based on the new problems. Please

see thread below....the most recent response first. As you can see, they have stressed

working with the Supplier but I don't think the supplier have been at fault in any of these

instances because the bad lots have been purchased from different suppliers....

will update if I get any response worth noting.

Brenda

Re: Any updates on the C3 Lot Numbers I sent

...

Thu, January 7, 2010 6:59:03 PMFrom:Brenda Hunter <blt212@yahoo.com>

...

View ContactTo:Leslie Sosa <Leslie.Sosa@elevance.com>

Cc:Customer Service <CustomerService@elevance.com>

Thank you Leslie for your quick reply and update. I appreciate your response but still would like to stress that the symptoms experienced are exactly the same in both of these lots and the same others in the past. As I'm sure you can understand, my concern is based on future quality and consistency in this product. The boxes I've purchased since have been fine but knowing that others are experiencing the same issue does not give me or others on the forum confidence that the problem has been resolved by Elevance. If any information does become available that would help solve the mystery, I would very much appreciate being notified.

Regards,

Brenda Hunter

CT River Candles

http://www.ctrivercandles.com

From: Leslie Sosa <Leslie.Sosa@elevance.com>

To: Brenda Hunter <blt212@yahoo.com>

Cc: Customer Service <CustomerService@elevance.com>

Sent: Thu, January 7, 2010 3:57:10 PM

Subject: RE: Any updates on the C3 Lot Numbers I sent

Hi Brenda,

The sales rep for Candle Wic will be giving them a call to discuss this issue as they should be the primary contact for their customer’s issue. He has also been in contact with the person/company who is having the issues with the C-3. There have been no new developments on the issue with your lot number L9I24. They have not been able to find anything wrong with the C-3 sample from you.

The lot in question from Candle Wic is L9I29.

Kind regards,

Leslie Sosa

Elevance Renewable Sciences, Inc.

175 E Crossroads Parkway, Suite F

Bolingbrook, IL 60440

Phone: (877) 215.2795

Direct Line: (630) 633.7226

Fax: (630) 823.2161

Email: Leslie.Sosa@Elevance.com

* If this email is in response to a sales order, a return email confirming agreement of pricing outlined above is required within 24 hours to process your order. Failure to reply within 24 hours will result in a delay of order processing as your order will not be entered without your email confirmation.

This communication is confidential, may constitute inside information, is intended only for the use of the addressee and is the property of Elevance Renewable Sciences, Inc. Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying is strictly prohibited. If you receive this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail and destroy this entire communication.

From: Brenda Hunter [mailto:blt212@yahoo.com]

Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 12:51 PM

To: Leslie Sosa

Subject: Re: Any updates on the C3 Lot Numbers I sent

Hello Leslie...

I read in my candle forum that another member is dealing with the same issues I had with my C3 soy wax that we discussed in the thread below. It is also the same lot number that I had so it appears that there is still a problem with that lot that Elevance has not found yet since it's still cropping up in other boxes from other suppliers. In this case I understand it was Candlewic. Can you let me know if there have been any updates on this issue...

Thank you,

Brenda Hunter

CT River Candles

Haddam, CT

RE: C-3 wax from Elevance Renewable Sciences‏

From:Larry Thomas (Larry.Thomas@elevance.com) Sent:Thu 1/07/10 2:51 PMTo: Maryann Theoret (mtheoret15@hotmail.com)

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Please send me your shipping address, and phone number, and I will send you some additional material to work with.

Thanks again,

Larry

This an an update that Larry sent me. ? what additional material is he sending me to work with?

RE: C-3 wax from Elevance Renewable Sciences‏

From:Larry Thomas

Thanks Maryann.

Please send me your shipping address, and phone number, and I will send you some additional material to work with.

Thanks again,

Larry

This an an update that Larry sent me. ? what additional material is he sending me to work with?

Trying to edit , it copy his email address with a bunch of junk on it.

The mfg company sent me 2 boxes of replacement of the wax. Will try it and let you know how it turns out.

I know this is a old thread, haven't been on much lately. I had the same thing happen with C3 I got from Candlewic .. No label on the bbox that said it was C3. Called the company and they asked what color the bag was inside the box (blue) they said candlewic was probably repackaging the wax. Called candlewic and was sent another box of wax for free

No label on the box that said it was C3

Was this supposed to be a case (50 lbs.)? If so, wow... that really sux!!! It's one thing to repackage something that's private branded and quite another to repackage what is expected to be a sealed case from a manufacturer!! :rolleyes2

Yes, it was a 50# box that was supposed to have been from the manufacturer. They thought candlewic was repackaging to sell under one of their own formulas. I still get my C3 from candlewic, haven't has a problem since. There's always been a label on the box after that.