Flame out of control

[moonshine]

funny you say that... I have a woodworks wood wick in fireside In my basement that is about 4 years old now- maybe more (long before I started making candles) and when I lit this for the first time within minutes the flame was so high and the crackling very loud I told my kids to get the marshmallows we were moving this bonfire outside! And that is a huge brand name

I know ZERO about wood wicks but I do have some here that I never got around to testing- I do still occasionally light this one and every time it's a smoke bomb and huge flame thrower-the label says to keep trimmed to a 1/8th of a inch but I still get same results

I personally will never buy them again but may try to make and test myself one day for personal use- I hope you find the answers to what could of gone wrong there and welcome!

[moonshine]

All of this talk of wood wicks got my curiosity up so I went out and bought a wood-wicked candle to try. I will be watching it like a hawk.

Let us know how yours does... I'm curious and is it a woodworks brand?

[Hardwood Wickster]

Good morning all

I love all the comments since the last i got in here and they are all appreciated!!

I did a lot of testing with my inventory last night to try and resolve this, plus I have now in hand the "event" candle and boy was it a mess... the jar was so hot when he put the lid on it that it melted the seal to the jar.. I suppose thats better than the house going up in flames.. anyways here's what i have narrowed it down to...

For all the naysayers over wooden wicked products all i can say is the ones I designed and made are not the culprits... Let me say that again they are not the Culprits. So lets put the hardwood wick conversations to bed, remove that variable from this equation and get to figuring out the root cause. I made video's last night as well as pictures but never had the chance to get them into youtube or download them for all to see... they show exactly in my opinion whats happening

Here's the route of tests I did last night.

First off here's what I had to work with. The 'event' candle now half burned (in a 21oz status jar, FO Lemon), The candle I burned two nights ago when i was made aware of this problem (in a 12 oz status jar, same dia FO Lemon) and (2) more FO Lemon ones in a 12 oz status jar.. all from the same batch, same wax make up, same FO, same suppliers, etc and btw the wick thickness and width, material for all of these is the same, made at the same time, same process, etc with only the length for the 21 oz jar being longer.

First i took one of the two i had in inventory, cut the wick to the right normal size before burning and lit it... the candle started as normal, then 15 to 20 seconds into it, instead of tuning in it increased in flame ht, sputtering, dancing around and continueing to increase til it started the wax on fire all abut the same time span as the one i tested the night before. I blew it out, let it cool and re-lit no trimming done and it was fine the rest of the night, burned for two plus hours.

While that was burning, i went to the one from the night before and lit it, it burned normal all night long as well, no issues. Now onto the event candle, after scraping off the melted plastic and charred jar, cleaning it up as good as i could I trimmed its wick and lit it. Mind you this was already half burnt down and god knows what all it went thru to this point. Anyway I lit it and it started to flare up and catch the wax on fire in less than 30 seconds. I let it burn that way for about 15 sec (which seems short, but not when i was sitting there as i didn't want it to escalate and get out of control on me) then blew it out, let it cool and re-lit that as well and it burned fine the rest of the night.. approx 2 hrs maybe 2 1/2 hrs. And lastly I took the final 12 oz jar and lit it and it acted like the rest at first and started to escalate out of control. I blew it out, let it cool and re-lit with no issues after that, burn time only 20 min as i seen no reason to continue burning the fouth at that point last night. One observation I had last night before burning the previously unlit candles was, they appeared to have almost a sweaty type apprearance on the surface of the wax. I poked it with a toothpick wondering if FO pool would be just under the skin but nothing.

Narrowing down the conculsion...

Like i said the wick is out of the picture, if the wick was the issue I would have witnessed the same reactions in some or all cases after the re-lights

To me it has to be down to the wax / FO make-up and /or the process in which I made this batch of candles from. Just so you know, I have tested and used this particular FO for months, first bought back in march of last year, same supplier, etc. This batch thou was the first and only out of the 1 lb container of FO i bought and still have approx 1 oz left on inventory.

I agree with the previous comment that I don't think its the wax by itself, just because Ive made several candles from it, other FO's etc with no issues

Down to thinking I screwed up the formula mix ratio's and there was an overload of FO in the wax and some of the excess FO surfaced somehow to just under the skin

or

There was something in the FO concentrate itself that is causing this...

One of the issues I've always had with candle making and the in's and out's of it is finding educated people talking or teaching the details to the process. I've learned a lot from this site listening to all of you go thru your tribulations and this site is by far better than anything else i have found. However a person has to learn to weed out the opinions from the science and the naysayers. Meaning yeah i know to test and i have read that some waxes hold this much FO and others that much, etc but you don't find details like what happens if i put an overload of FO in for example... i have read it makes the candle smoke, i have read it flutters, pool of FO at bottom of jar and it doesn't burn right.. but technically speaking for example what does the FO do.... mathemathical speaking if your FO has a flash point of 127 deg and your wax's flash point is 375 deg and you are putting 1 oz Fo tinto 1 lb batches you can expect the flash point of the wax to be approx 359 deg at 2oz per 1 lb batch you can expect to see the flash point drop to 344 deg.. both still at safe points.

I read the melt pool temp last night just under and less than 1/4" away from the wick and found the melt pool temp to be at approx 165 deg, which to me means to get the wax/fo mixture to flash i would have had the mixture to be extremely concentrated with FO at the point where the wick is.. in other words thru calculations at 75% FO to 25% wax or 12 oz Fo 4 oz wax it still is at 189 deg average flash point. at 14 oz Fo to 2 oz wax the flash mixture would be 158. My point is the mixture had to be runny beyond belief, I would have to imagine that, to have this much FO throughout the candle. Which wasn't the case.

So i'm thinking that still an overload occured or maybe the mxing of the two didn't occur properly and just a separation of the two to the point where there was an extreme amount of FO at just under the surface to cause this

Maybe I'm all wet and none of that made any sense or maybe FO/wax doesn't do this or maybe my math wasn't right but anyway thats my thoughts so far this morning

Edited January 13, 2012 by Hardwood Wickster

[HorseScentS]

Sounds to me like it was a particular spot on that particular wick.

[Beth]

I know ZIP about wood wicks, but is there any way to yank out the wood wick in one those same-batch-candles & put in a standard wick so you can test the wax/FO combo leaving the wood wick out of the equation?

[Hardwood Wickster]

you guys are too much... give it up on the wick... its not the issue.... its REALLY NOT the issue

The odds that it was a particular spot on each candle wick, all at the same spot on the wick height for no more amount of time it burned that way before i blew it out did nothing but let it cool and re-light it. Plus how the process was to make the wicks themselves... i'd be better off playing the lottery and standing out in a thunderstorm in Illinois while living in Indiana and still getting hit by lightening...

but yes i could yank the wick out and put in a nasty un-trustworthy cotton one, or a pc of yarn or rolled up newspaper or a leftover toilet paper holder roll if i thought any of that would make or eliminate any kind of conclusion

but that was funny.. you guys are too much

[classiccandle]

I don't know ZIP about wood wicks either but I do know testing and if you HAVEN'T removed the wood wick and tried burning that particular candle with an un-trustworthy cotton wick then you can't, with 100% certainty, eliminate the wick as the culprit.

[HorseScentS]

you guys are too much... give it up on the wick... its not the issue.... its REALLY NOT the issue

If you're not willing to consider all the parts of your candle system, including the wick, I don't see how you can be objective.

[Beth]

I didn't think it was funny. It was a way to determine once & for all if it was the wick or not. (& then maybe everyone would "give it up on the wick")

Without testing a different type of wick, how will you ever know...

[Hardwood Wickster]

i give... and technically you are correct, once i get a couple of the recalls back in hand i will do just that for you all.... then thou, once we all see the same results i'm sure we'll be finding another way the wooden wick is the issue..

it amazes me how people are so set in their ways and how an unknown or the something different scares the heck outta. But to me, these wicks ive seen burn many times over, tested beyond anything i bet any of you do with your wicks. Worked the in's and outs with them, studied them, compared one vs 10 others, how each react, over and over and yet over again. Burned them side by side, out of the wax, testing temps, flame height, structure of the wood, densities, one kind of wood vs another, this thickness vs another, different porosities, drying percentages and how that affects burn rates, variances between them and all the what happens if i do this or that and compared... all before even putting a one in the wax... why? to keep them consistant as possible, before adding another variance.. to make a process where I know what i had and what made them click and because it was something new, different and out of the norm

have a great day... and i do appreciate all the comments

Edited January 13, 2012 by Hardwood Wickster

[classiccandle]

it amazes me how people are so set in their ways and how an unknown or the something different scares the heck outta. But to me, these wicks ive seen burn many times over, tested beyond anything i bet any of you do with your wicks. Worked the in's and outs with them, studied them, compared one vs 10 others, how each react, over and over and yet over again. Burned them side by side, out of the wax, testing temps, flame height, structure of the wood, densities, one kind of wood vs another, this thickness vs another, different porosities, drying percentages and how that affects burn rates, variances between them and all the what happens if i do this or that and compared... all before even putting a one in the wax... why? to keep them consistant as possible, before adding another variance.. to make a process where I know what i had and what made them click and because it was something new, different and out of the norm

And after all that testing you still had a candle flare up.

I don't have anything against wood wicks. I've never burned a wood wicked candle, never made a candle with a wood wick, and probably never will. Nothing against it, it just isn't my cup of tea. However, when it comes to determining how this particular candle flared up the way it did you cannot simply dismiss the wick because you did all of the above testing. Through the process of elimination, including the wick, you should be able to figure out what happened.

I wish you nothing but success in your business and hope you find the reason behind this flare up.

[Candybee]

And after all that testing you still had a candle flare up.

I don't have anything against wood wicks. I've never burned a wood wicked candle, never made a candle with a wood wick, and probably never will. Nothing against it, it just isn't my cup of tea. However, when it comes to determining how this particular candle flared up the way it did you cannot simply dismiss the wick because you did all of the above testing. Through the process of elimination, including the wick, you should be able to figure out what happened.

I wish you nothing but success in your business and hope you find the reason behind this flare up.

Amen to that!

Edited January 13, 2012 by Candybee

[joym]

You said in one of your postings that there were "beads" on top of the wax. In my opinion, this is most likely fragrance oil seepage, and a probable cause of the flare-up; especially so since the flare-up did not occur on subsequent burns.

I've recently done several tests of wood wicks (all from the same supplier) in the same wax/additive/container combination, and have found, much to my dissappointment, that not all of the wicks burn the same.

[001]

Well here is what I am thinking... one I don't believe you understand what we're trying to do. You eliminated the wick immediately, much like a parent saying my kid could neeeeeever do that and I understand that but the fact is the candle caught on fire and it didn't spontaneously blow up. It could have been any single part. I am not afraid of woodwicks and I don't really think many people are, I sort of like the WoodWicks I get as trade-ins and enjoy them, especially the fireside one I just got done burning but I've even had problems with them (I had a small WW jar that would not stop throwing sparks) I'm also an educated candle burner who knows how to deal with problems and the issues that come along with nearly all candles. I've tortured them before as well and it was truly the reason I stopped testing wood wicks. They don't react well when burned in high ambient temps (85 degrees) they accelerate quite a bit and when they finish they get dangerously hot.

If I were you I would try my best to replicate what happened. You said you bought a pound and ended up with one ounce, did you do 10 pounds of wax? Less? More? Did you do anything differently? Ambient temps, air circulation, forget to warm the jars, mix at a lower temp, pour at a higher/lower temp? From the information you posted I don't think it was exclusively your wick, and it is possible that it was just your FO but even if it was I wouldn't attempt to learn, instead I would begin testing all lower flashpoint FO's and consider eliminating them (like you have to with gel candles) If there is even a chance of this it wouldn't be worth it to me.

Please post your videos and pictures though when you can, I'm very interested in them. There can't be too much information available about candles.

Edited January 13, 2012 by 001

[Hardwood Wickster]

joym - Thats my thoughts as well about the oil seepage. Thanks for actually reading my posts and coming to some logical conculsions.

I also understand your tribulations and experiences with the wooden wicks... its another reason why i developed my own, so i knew what i was dealing with and why. I heard the same things before i got into this, Ive burned other candle makers wooden wicked products and seen the same thing, mine weren't going to be down that same road, I would find a way to make them or i wouldn't be doing it... and I have, contrary to what some of you think, based on your limited knowledge of MY product and tunnel sided visions... Frankly I am very pleased with how they burn, how the react, how unique each one is... and by that I mean some crackle and pop more than others, some have different shaped flames on them, etc. Like a tiny little camp fires giving off great room enhancing aroma's. Everyone thats seen these love them simply put, including the family / guy that had this 'event' candle happen to him. He told me yesterday upon returning the candle to give him another in one of my other fragrances as he thinks these are the best candles he's ever been around. He understands the trials new businesses face. And to be honest, I hear the best candle comment all the time cause they are in my opinion and at prices that aren't out to rape the consumer... and to me thats what this is all about. Having a great product, people love, not that you all don't hear the same thing for your products, as i'm sure you do.

Its unfortunate this happened to say the least. A huge learning experience on my behalf and its not over. I will get to the bottom of this and think i'm real close and will continue to put safety at the top of the list.

The documentation going forward, the double checking formula calculations, the tedious checking and re-checking to make sure everything is as it should be, like one poster said.. like your family's life depended on it.

At the end of the day, I know what I have here... people can say what they want, its a free country. I can take critism with the best of them, have no problems admiting any wrongdoings on my behalf. Its the ignorance that gets annoying or the opinionated ones who haven't a clue cause they are sold on one idea and to them its the only way.. If we all thought that way there would be no technical advances or new technologies.. its human nature to stay within your comfort zones... I have always thought outside the box, invented several things, its just how my mind works. I analyze and re-analyze till its right, no different here....I find it challenging and rewarding once it all comes together and it don't come together without some failures. The problem here was I 'thought' i had all the bugs worked out, that i was wrong.... more than likely a calculation error and no documentation to back this up. I will recreate this mishap, test with my wicks as well as some cotton ones, etc and prove to myself the probelm and resolve it accordingly... and any of you didn't like what I'm doing or the candles I made, to each is own I would say.. its perfectly fine with me if none of you liked them or if I never sold another. My wife and I as well as others love them and enjoy burning them each and every evening

[Hardwood Wickster]

i agree -001.. i actually do understand what you all are saying, i'm just 99.99999% sure its not the wicks.. but i will take that last whatever out of the equation.... I have thought all those same thoughts, again saying i will question everything about my process and have and eliminate the issue altogether. My next step is trying to understand even more so and duplicate what has happened if I can and if it comes to terms that lower FO flashpoints are too dangerous or borderline than so be it, they won't be anything i work with no matter what they smell like or how 'most' burn.. it is not worth it to me either. If i was a betting man i'd say its an FO overload probelm and this particular FO had a specific gravity lighter than the wax itself and levitated to the surface causing the serious concentration at the most extreme top layer as once that burned off all the candles were fine burning the rest of the time

i will try to post the vids and pictures over the weekend and give links for those who are interested. I personally think there's not even close to enough information for the average joe to safely make candles either for personal use or to sell to the public out there

[Stella1952]

I personally think there's not even close to enough information for the average joe to safely make candles either for personal use or to sell to the public out there

I completely disagree. The industry has worked hard with the science of wicking candles, waxes, etc. The how & why are out there, in here, and all over if people want to learn. Kids were routinely doing this level of testing for science fair experiments back when I was a kid (paleolithic age). The problem is when the average joe does not follow logical scientific control procedures in their testing methods.

[HorseScentS]

joym - Thats my thoughts as well about the oil seepage. Thanks for actually reading my posts and coming to some logical conculsions.

Uh, dude, everybody else actually read your posts and came to logical conclusions as well, it's just that you are so biased against the idea that your wood wick may have malfunctioned you can't hear the logic of our concerns. 001 said it perfectly: "You eliminated the wick immediately, much like a parent saying my kid could neeeeeever do that" That's what got everybody worried.

P.S. I've seen people be mean and nasty on this forum quite a few times, and nobody was mean and nasty to you in this thread at all. Everyone was forthright and honest because they're concerned, that's all.

Edited January 14, 2012 by HorsescentS

[CaftCandles]

Uh, dude, everybody else actually read your posts and came to logical conclusions as well, it's just that you are so biased against the idea that your wood wick may have malfunctioned you can't hear the logic of our concerns. 001 said it perfectly: "You eliminated the wick immediately, much like a parent saying my kid could neeeeeever do that" That's what got everybody worried.

P.S. I've seen people be mean and nasty on this forum quite a few times, and nobody was mean and nasty to you in this thread at all. Everyone was forthright and honest because they're concerned, that's all.

Where's that Dang LIKE Button?

[moonshine]

Like Button

You stated in a post that it amazes you how everyone is so set in their ways- they are no different than you- you seem very set in yours and unwilling to HEAR the advice and comments of what others are trying to give you.

You posted the question and need to be able to take the good the bad and the ugly in doing so- its how we learn.

I am not being mean or rude in saying this...I am simply just saying

I commend you for "thinking outside the box" and coming up with a different unique product you dont see much of out there and all of us candle makers can run into major problems at any given time no matter the extent of our testing- that is why I love this forum- to get viewpoints from many different people and many levels of experience

I really do hope you figure it out and wish I had something to offer you but I have no experience in this at all.

[chuck_35550]

My suggestion (for what it's worth at this point) would be to reduce your fo load to 6% and stay away from complex fragrances. Nestle your candles closely together (not touching) and insulate with a box and cover with a heavy quilt, so that the cooling is slow and uniform and hopefully air pockets will not occur around your wooden wick. Probably the combination of a resinous fragrance oil and whatever oils in the wood, as well as any air pockets that might have formed around the wick caused your flare up. Personally, that incident would scare me enough to start selling tarts but it would give me pause to reconsider wicking. Different strokes for personal choice but burning down the house is a little extreme. If nothing else, consider using a harder wax and treating your container more like a pillar. The whole system seriously failed and that should be enough to reconsider using a more reliable system. IMHO

Steve

[lyncamp]

Could it be the lemon FO? I had that happen with CS Lemon Verbena. Out of hundreds of candles I've made that was the only time I had that happen. Never made candles with it again just used it in soap. I used 444 wax and HTP wicks. Probably 8 - 10% FO. It's been awhile but that's what I always use. The whole top of the apothecary jar was afire.

[Hardwood Wickster]

For those interested I wanted to give an update...

Over the weekend I received the last two recalls from this batch back. And thankfully either had been burned, which upon calling right away i knew they wouldn't be.

To put the wick issue to bed in my mind, I first removed the wooden wick and poked an HTP-104 in one and an HTP-83 I believe in the other and lit them... in both cases they started to flame out of control as expected, but it did take a little longer than what my wood wicked candle tests did.

I focused my research mostly into the wax / FO formula. To date I wasn't able to find the specific gravity of the 4627 Wax (i have emails into my distributor at the moment as well) but was able to find one for the lemon FO, while there in that research mode, I checked all the rest of of my FO's and compared.. the lemon was by far lower than the rest at .83 to .87 that they gave on the data sheet, while all the rest of my FO mixes mathematically averaged at approx. .96 to 1.13. I also noticed their flash points were alot higher on the other fragrances at 185 to 210 deg compared to the lemon at 127, however I have a orange based one Im testing for the summer, its flash point is 118 but SG was 205.

Like I said previously, I wanted to make a couple of test ones up to try and duplicate this, which i did but will wait to let them cure the same amount of time the other batch did before testing. Results tbd.

Thoughts so far, are similiar to what i was logically guessing prior to the weekend, that a calculation in mixing the FO to the wax occurred and I overloaded FO into the mixture. Based on what I know so far the FO was lighter than the rest of my FO's inhouse (and assuming the wax will come back around the .90 mark), it separated somewhat and floated to the surface at probably some minute degree. Whether the wax is heavier or not is irrelevent as whether the FO sinks or surfaces its still an unsafe candle when overloaded with FO as it still has the potential to flare up either at the start of a burn or when candle is about empty i would think unless the melt pool at the end of the candle keeps it diluted to a safe condition.

i also want to melt a batch of wax to temp and with the last one oz of FO I have, drop it in a clear container to see for myself if it sinks or floats without mixing them together to try as suggested by one of the posters

I also have an email into the distributor to see if we can determine if the batch of FO I received was tainted or something, to put to FO to bed on whether it was safe. I realize they probably draw from drums, etc but need to know any information they might have regarding this issue. Results tbd.

I will more than likely discontiue making the lemon to sell, but until i know the results and the why's to it all I have to know the root cause and if its low SP Grav of FO or AND/Or the flash temps as well then i will know what exactly i need to stay away from in my system of making candles. If by chance, highly unlikely thou, the batch of FO was tainted then thats a different ballgame...

Its all speculation at this point but wanted to give everyone who's curious an update

[HorseScentS]

To put the wick issue to bed in my mind, I first removed the wooden wick and poked an HTP-104 in one and an HTP-83 I believe in the other and lit them... in both cases they started to flame out of control as expected, but it did take a little longer than what my wood wicked candle tests did.

Oh? Hmmm...

[lyncamp]

I do remember when I received the Lemon Verbena I received the regular 16 oz. bottle and then a little one also with some in it and the label said that 16 oz. (by weight) wouldn't fit in the 16 oz. bottle.