CD10 to CD12-A little nudge or big boost?

[sisters3]

Hello all, hoping for some help. Here's the thing. I am testing for a Christmas order. Testing head to head 8 oz jj, 464, 10% CS Hansel & Gretel, one CD10 and one ECO 10

Just finished hour 12 on burn test on the CD10 and hour 8 on the ECO 10.

The CD10 started really, really slow, tons of hang up even after hour 8 but is starting to clean up after hour 16, pretty good throw.

The ECO10 has a super throw but flame seem too big, some flicker, FMP after hour 5 and a bit over 1/2" deep mp after. I have concerns that as the candle goes down the heat will be too much.

I am thinking of wicking up to CD12, I just seem to like these wicks better, they have such a nice, consistent burn. I don't think wicking down to ECO8 will do, I think it will most likely drown. I've just started using the CD wicks and have never used a CD12.

So, finally to my question. Is the move up to CD12 from CD10 a little nudge or BIG push?

Any thoughts? Thanks so much!

[IwantItgreen]

From my experience, there is a HUGE difference between the CD 10 and the ECO 10.

An CD10 is closer to an ECO 6.

[rjdaines]

According to the chart I have (and who knows what it really means) the ROC of CD10 is 0.23 and CD12 is 0.24 and flame height is 1.94 vs. 2.39 and pool diameter is 1.93 for both. To be honest, one doesn't really know until one tries.

[sisters3]

Thank you....IwantItgreen, that really puts it in perspective! rjdaines, thank you, I did get that chart when I started using CD wicks, just need to get use to using it.

I'll be pouring the CD12 tester today, no doubt. Thanks again!

[moonshine]

I use 464- but I use the 8 ounce square mason jar and for me the CD12's always end up getting the glass way to hot half way thru the candle...doesnt mean it will for you but I have only a few I use the 12 with (super heavy impossible FO's)

10's are usually what works best but even then the glass will sometimes get to hot with this size- I have never tried a 8 being that the 10 will sometimes start out way to slow and weak- but I am now starting to test with the CDN's and so far I am finding that the CDN 10 is a littler hotter than the CD 10

also I started with 12% FO load which is way to much- you could try backing your load down to 8 or 9% and see if you still get good HT and the burn improves

[Stella1952]

A 10 is not a 10 is not a 10... LOL... Kinda like shoe sizes... US shoe size Women's 8 = Australia 6½ = UK 5½ = Japan 24 Same shoe dimensions, but sized differently.

The sizes of ECOs and CDs are not equivalents, as others pointed out. Each manufacturer has their own way of sizing - makes it a little crazy for us. The only thing charts are useful for to me is to be able to generally compare how one type wick's sizing stacks up against another in the most general of terms.

ROC of CD10 is 0.23 and CD12 is 0.24 and flame height is 1.94 vs. 2.39 and pool diameter is 1.93 for both

I know these numbers are based on paraffin, and I do not know if they represent container tests, pillar tests or a slab test, but what they tell me bears out my experience with those size wicks in that size container... the flame height will be higher, the MP won't be much larger (at first) and the consumption is similar, but about halfway down into the container, the flame height will be too high and the container will heat up too much. This is one of those occasions I have found myself wishing for a CD 11 LOLOL I want a LITTLE more flame height and heat but not as much as I get from the 12... It'll be interesting to see if your test experience is similar.

Holy Moly - I just saw the 10% FO... :lipsrseal

I have to ask - how far down in the jar has the CD 10 burned? If it is not at the end (last 1/2"), keep testing. For your own data, the 12 would be a logical size to test next, but I think it will end up being too hot at the end of the candle. Please let us know how it plays out. : )

[sisters3]

Thanks very much! Moonshine, thanks for the info on the Mason jars, I am testing them next with CD wicks. I am trying to get to a container/wick chart that is my go to container/wick assemblies to always start with, so your info is great!

Stella, the CD10 just started hour 13 in testing, and jeez, looking pretty good. I'm just imagining what the customer will see at first, I need to get use to that.

I have been taking photos throughout this head to head test and will post, hopefully it will help to see what I'm seeing. Be back in a bit with the pics. Thanks again!

[sisters3]

OK, hope these fit. Here are the CD10 pics

[sisters3]

Here are the ECO10 Pics....Sorry, seems they're not in order.

Any thoughts, opinions ?

Edited To Say: Wick was off centered in the ECO candle...my bad

Edited November 4, 2011 by sisters3

[moonshine]

I am no pro and still learning as I move forward but for me....the ECO would have to go-holy flame. I tried for months to make them work as candlescience recommends them with this wax but I had no luck at all with them AND they turned my wax a nasty deep yellow greasy color BUT maybe a 8 would work if you like these wicks

The CD 10 looks very similar to how mine burn but I get a little better flame ...I do not use as high of a FO load as you which could be one of the many reasons

How is the HT for you with the CD10...will be interesting to see how it goes and ends up closer to the end of the candle- it looks like its coming along nicely

[sisters3]

Moonshine (love that name), Thank you...I too started using ECO wicks based on CS recommendation and have had issue after issue, hence making the move to CD wicks, which I want to use full time. As for HT, picture this, I have a very open floor plan downstairs and the candle is at the bottom of my stairs on a table, it can be smelled a ton in the powder room down the hall, hallway, up the stairs, bedroom around the corner, etc., NOT over powering just nice and smooth. The HT from the ECO candle is very strong, its filling up a BIG room, but still smells nice. I am going to back down to 8% FO. I will reserve my decision to wick up to CD12 AFTER I see how this test ends up.

The thing I am having a hard time getting past is the customer seeing all the hang up on the CD10 during the first 4-6 hours. I will just have to explain that we wick for the MIDDLE and END of our candles.....Right?

[rjdaines]

If your JJ is the same diameter to a Libbey 8 oz Status jar (3 inches) and if you are using 464 (which you are I believe), I use a CD-10 and even that is a tad hot at the end but that's what I am sticking with. The ECO in your pics looks way to hot, The CD wick will catch up half way down, at least is does with me.

Your CD-10 12 hr pic looks good to me.

Edited November 4, 2011 by rjdaines

[sisters3]

Thank you for you thoughts. I am with you 100%, I am sticking with the CD10, the JJ is 2.75 dia. Obviously I jumped the gun on wicking up. Here are some updates

Edited To Say. Yes, 464 is correct

Edited November 4, 2011 by sisters3

[moonshine]

I am with rjdaines- I stick for the most part with the CD10- it can get hot towards the end but overall it is the best so far...now CDN is starting to look like the happy medium to me in the FO's I am testing- but we will see how the heat is at the end.

I get that alot with the CD also- not super strong throw in the room it is in but very strong in others...dont know the answer to that but I am seeing with CDN HT everywhere so far

As far as hang up at first in the CD10- I have found not trimming the wick to 1/4 at first to help...I trim more like a 1/2" whether that is wrong or not that is what I do- it seems to help

I am amazed you get strong HT with ECO- I never did...just goes to show the different results with pretty much the same ingredients! LOL

[Stella1952]

The 10 is looking good but still has a way to go before it gets close to the end. Your candle is entering the point where things begin to get interesting. The 'shrooming may diminish with a lowered FO load... 10% is overkill. Why not try 1 oz. PP and go up if needed? Too much FO affects the efficiency of the burn negatively. It can also promote polymorphic changes in soy waxes like frosting and cauliflowering. Using the least amount of FO possible to get the HT you desire is best all the way around.

I often have said that I think it's best for people to learn how to wick veggie waxes with NO additives first - just wax and a wick. Once they get an idea of which wick & size works best to simply burn their wax, then add 1 oz. PP of FO and see how that changes the wicking... Some people have criticized this POV, but when so many folks start in the middle with too much FO, too much dye, additives they don't even know why they are using, etc., they really do not know WHAT is causing the problems they are trying to iron out. Starting at the very beginning and adding things one at a time helps build on success and understanding. While it seems like it'll take longer to "get where you're going" I think this helps people understand the dynamics of how to design a good candle which will make things far easier down the road. When you have kept good data, and you hit a snag, you can refer back to see when the stuff hit the fan... If you have only changed ONE aspect of the candle at a time, it makes it a LOT easier to troubleshoot.

Trim the wick to 1/4". You are not trying to "jump start" the candle. That is unnecessary. Stop worrying about initial hangup. It is normal and desirable to have a small amount of hangup. If the hangup is caused by the heat being off-center in the candle (as it is with CDs), twist your wick a few turns before securing it in the wick bar to allow it to slowly rotate as it burns, This will distribute the heat more evenly and you will get a more concentric burn.

not super strong throw in the room it is in but very strong in others...dont know the answer to that but I am seeing with CDN HT everywhere so far

I do not think this is a function of the CDN but rather air current patterns in the room which change during the day or when the environment changes. Edited November 4, 2011 by Stella1952

[moonshine]

I do not think this is a function of the CDN but rather air current patterns in the room which change during the day or when the environment changes.

That makes sense....now can I ask...with the CDN's is it pretty characteristic that when they are burning they appear to have a huge mushroom but when you snuff them out there is NOT one? This is baffling me

[Stella1952]

with the CDN's is it pretty characteristic that when they are burning they appear to have a huge mushroom but when you snuff them out there is NOT one?

Did you look deep in the MP for little black balls? LOL Those are not bunny nubbits! LOLOL

The CDN' isn't the primary cause of 'shrooms, but rather the incomplete combustion of ingredients in the candle collecting on the tip. If there are too many contaminants or too much FO, there will be unburned residue at the tip of the wick. If the tip of the wick isn't in the hottest part of the flame, a 'shroom will result.

Here's some good reading about wicks from the manufacturer of CDN (Stabilo KST) wicking:

http://www.heinzverhaegh.com/id79.html

they appear to have a huge mushroom

The first set of photos of candles burning improperly shows a "huge" 'shroom, BTW. I'll bet yours wasn't really THAT huge, eh? LOL

The temperature distribution illustration is all the way at the bottom of the page, so keep scrolling...

Or you can click on the separate sections at the link below (start with "About the Wick" and click each sub-section):

http://www.technische-geflechte.de/site/english/about-the-wick.html

[sisters3]

The 10 is looking good but still has a way to go before it gets close to the end. Your candle is entering the point where things begin to get interesting. The 'shrooming may diminish with a lowered FO load... 10% is overkill. Why not try 1 oz. PP and go up if needed? Too much FO affects the efficiency of the burn negatively. It can also promote polymorphic changes in soy waxes like frosting and cauliflowering. Using the least amount of FO possible to get the HT you desire is best all the way around.

Thanks Stella, your POV is always appreciated and I agree. I did test the ECO's in the beginning but in trying to go to CD's I did not.

I will let you know how the test ends up but I think it will be CD10 hands down. Thanks again!

[moonshine]

Sorry for the quick change of subject Sisters...

Stella

I dug in my melt pool and surrounding the wick there IS little black balls! They were not noticeable at all until I started digging- so the wick IS shrooming but its falling off as it burns...wow- this is very different for me as with the CD's if I got a shroom I got a "shroom" that was all in tac until I trimmed it off!

I guess this means back to the drawing board with the CDN Testing...thanks for the links

[Stella1952]

I guess this means back to the drawing board with the CDN Testing

A few little black balls are not the end of the world. The wick IS self-trimming, which is good. Look at the 'shroom in the links I posted above... now THAT'S a reason to go back to the drawing board LOLOL

How much FO are you using, Moonshine? In 464, right? What size diameter container?

Edited November 5, 2011 by Stella1952

[sisters3]

Sorry for the quick change of subject Sisters

No worries Moonshine...I'll let you know when I'm finished with this head to head battle Good luck with your testing, but sounds like Stella doesn't think its too bad so maybe you're good to go with the CDNs

[ChandlerWicks]

I'm following this sooo closely! Thanks for taking the time to post your pics. Its helped immensely!

[moonshine]

A few little black balls are not the end of the world. The wick IS self-trimming, which is good. Look at the 'shroom in the links I posted above... now THAT'S a reason to go back to the drawing board LOLOL

How much FO are you using, Moonshine? In 464, right? What size diameter container?

I use the square mason- 3" diameter..more like 3 1/4" where the corners come out and I use 8 or 9% FO depending and yes, 464- I have never been able to get good throw at 1 ounce per pound or even 7% although I have not tried it with the CDN wicks

The more I thought about the little black balls the more I think its not that awful bad, everything else is working beautiful (no flicker, even burn, HT, good melt pool) I would rather the shroom fall like that then build up on the tip so long as when I get to the bottom of the candle it doesnt look like a bunny took a huge dump in it! LOL

I am really liking CDN and plan to go back and test the C3 again with these wicks also- I had better luck with that wax using less FO

and yes those shrooms in the links you gave are bad, I am not getting that (shew)- the little balls are very tiny that are dropping - like grape nut size (the cereal)

[sisters3]

I'm following this sooo closely! Thanks for taking the time to post your pics. Its helped immensely!

Glad it helped, sure helps me. This is how determined I am to "get this"...I developed what I call a "Pour Sheet" that is a form with spots for all the pertinant info for each batch, then when I test I shoot photos until I have decided on the right wick set for that container. I then attached the photos to the pour sheet and put it in my binder so that I can alway refer back to it, I am a visual person and need the photos to remind me. There is way too much info right now to jam into my head I used to simply take notes but when I refer back to them they are all over the place...ha ha....hence the new pour sheets

I will post photos through til the end if that helps.

[ChandlerWicks]

Please, yes & thank-you. I believe I pull a wick too quickly instead of letting it run its course. I see your pics, read the comments & understand mine better. Now if you could start using 4627 & status jars!