Temp to add FO

[Yvelis]

I have been trying to get a better HT and have been posting this question on other boards but there is nothing like the knowledge in Craft Servers!!

SO I usually add my FO at around 165 but on NGI site (Ecosoya) they said FO should be added prior to pouring or at 140.

I have now tried that and are waiting for them to cure before I can test.

I have a Bluberry Muffin scent that I got a amazing HT from when I was testing wicks and didn't pay that much attention to what temp I added FO and I sure didn't let them cure that long either, usually 48 hours and then tested. No I can barely smell it after 10 days of curing.

SO at what temp do you add FA and get the best HT?

(I use Ecosoya CB-135/Xcel 60/40 and CD wicks)

Edited August 13, 2011 by Yvelis

[jonsie]

I don't use CB-135 so my input here isn't based on experience with that wax. But I did go read what NGI was saying on their website and I think they were using 135 deg F as a MINIMUM temperature to add FO, not as the suggested temperature to add FO. So I believe you are adding your FO too low.

I'm also a big believer in determining the right temperature to add FO based on the FO's flashpoint. For example, some FOs have a FP of 160 deg F, so I would choose to add it to my wax when it is at about 150 - 155 deg F. Some FOs have a very high FP. I'm not sure where you got your Blueberry Muffin FO but on NGC's website, their Blueberry Muffin FO has a FP of 250 deg F. In that case I would add it to my wax when it is at a temperature of 180 - 185 deg F to allow all the components of the FO to be released into the wax.

Hope that is some help.

[Yvelis]

Maybe you have a point there. All my FO's have a flashpoint over 200 because I live in Sweden and need them shipped to me.

I have made a candle where I added the fo at 180, in a few days I can test them and then I will know for sure what works best if there even are any difference.

[Candybee]

The FOs flashpoint changes once its added to wax so using its flashpoint to determine what temp to add to your wax is moot. Remember you are diluting it in wax so the FP will not be the same. I use CB 135 and always add my FO at 185 and blend throughly. I find that the temperature that makes the most difference in soy wax tends to be the pouring temp rather than the temp at which FO is added. Whatever temp you use to blend in your FO that works for you is what you should use.

There was a thread a while back about this same topic-- what temp to add your FO? Everyone had their own system and preference. The only commonality that was found was that very low temps under 155-160 tended to produce poor hot throw while temps 165 to 190 tended to produce the maximum hot throw. This was not based on any scientific testing-- rather people just reporting on this forum what worked for them. HTH

[rjdaines]

@Candybee I did a temp study adding FO and tested 180 vs 140 and the 180 was, indeed, better. However, are you saying that pour temp can have an effect on HT? It certainly effects the smoothness of the cooled candle. Since the temp of the wax is 180 during the FO mix, whether it cools in the pot or container to my way of thinking shouldn't matter unless rate of cooling has an effect with how the FO "binds" to the wax. Would love to hear your experience on this topic.

[Candybee]

I'll try to clarify. I found that adding my FO at a higher temp (185) consistently blended well into the wax. Before that I sometimes had problems with seperation or FO 'bleed'. That was my reason for blending at a higher temp. Thats what I meant by using the temp that works for you when adding your FO. I noticed a side effect and that was that I also got consistent better hot throw adding at the higher temp. I tend to believe that the better blending of the FO at a higher temp may be why I get consistently better hot throw. But I have not tested this. I only know that I started having problems with FO bleed and hot throw blending at lower temps. The 185 temp for adding FO in CB135 worked for me so I continue to use it.

Its been a while since I used those lower temps when first working with CB135. But I do recall the problems started to occur somewhere at about 160 degrees or lower when adding in my FO.

The other issue I mentioned is the pour temp. For me personally I found this required a whole lot more patience, practice, and technique to learn as it always impacted the candle issues such as appearance and air pockets.

[jonsie]

Candybee, I have tremendous respect for you and your knowledge about candles and soaps, and I appreciate how generous you have been with your time and information here at CT. So I feel almost blasphemous to come back here and explain why I don't completely agree with your suggestion to ignore FPs of FOs, lol. So please bear with me as I try to explain why I approach my FO temps the way I do.

First, I want to say I agree with you that when mixing FOs with wax, the overall flash point of the wax doesn't change. No need to worry about your candle spontaneously combusting just because the wax was mixed with an FO with a much lower FP. So I think we are on the same page there.

But based on my own experiences, I have learned that some FOs and EOs have better HT when added at lower temperatures. An example would be Pink Grapefruit EO, which has an incredibly low FP of 109F. In the batches I've made with the EO added at around 109F, the HT was strong and pleasant. But in one batch I did everything the same except I added the EO at around 145F, and the HT smelled horrible. Funny enough, it smelled great in the pot, and the CT smelled great too, but after pouring and curing and burning tester after tester, it became obvious the whole batch was bad. In my next batch I added the EO at 109F and had good HT again. I've had the same experience with a Peach FO, but my supplier didn't provide its FP so after trial-and-error I got much better HT results when the FO was added at around 140F.

Typically, citrus EOs have low FPs and interestingly enough, citrus FOs have low FPs too. And since citrus EOs are extremely cheap and in abundant supply, I am willing to bet they are used as natural aroma components in many citrus FOs, as well as other FOs that need that certain "pop".

I also have a pine FO that has a low FP of 140F and when I add the FO at higher temperatures, it doesn't smell horrible like the citrus, it just had very little HT. But when I add it below 140F, it has great HT. I can't help but wonder if it also uses pine needle EO because that has a low FP too.

I don't doubt that you have had great results with adding your FOs at higher temperatures. And I think adding FOs at the higher temps is a good guideline. But I feel it is worthwhile to explain why I believe FPs are useful for determining the temperature to add the FOs. And I would hate for someone to write off a potentially great FO or EO if they could have gotten better results by adding it at a different temperature.

Edited August 15, 2011 by jonsie
oops... typo

[Stella1952]

Jonsie, my question about your theory about adding low FP FOs at low temps yielding better HT is this: Palm wax has to be poured at temps higher than 175°F to get good crystalization. If your theory is valid, wouldn't that mean that the same FOs would not throw well in palm wax? I have not noticed this with the soy or palm waxes that I use... The grapefruit EO I used in palm wax threw very nicely! Granted, I couldn't test one with FO added at a low temp to see if the HT was improved because the palm wax would have been hard, so I guess that remains to be seen...

I think your hypothesis is compelling and I will pay close attention to the FP of the FOs I use and see if I discern the same difference as you experienced... I make scrap projects at a much lower temp than I do ones for stock, so I'll make an occasion to test this out and let you know what I find...

Just for grins, I took a look at the FP for the grapefruit EO I used and it is 110°F. WHat was interesting is that nearly ALL of the EOs at that particular supplier had relatively low FPs... only cedarwood, citronella, and peppermint had FPs over 160°F... If your hypothesis is correct, that might explain why it can be more difficult to get a good strong HT from many EOs ... Hmmmmmmm...

[Candybee]

Thats interesting about the low FP of some EOs & FOs effecting the hot throw if added at too high a wax temp. I never really paid attention to the FP of any oil when adding. You may have found something significant there Jonsie.

It would have to be tested out for sure. However, there are so many variables in what goes into making a candle that could factor into the poor hot throw. Its also possible that the wax, any one of the materials you use, even the supplier you get your oils and materials from plays a role in addition to the technique you make your candles. Thats a lot of variables to rule out.

I do recall someone discussing a similar topic and asking why do chandlers add their FOs at such high temps? Supposedly this person was knowledgable about the perfume industry and claimed that certain elements of the oils themselves or subtle 'notes' could be burned, destroyed, or altered due to high temps. This was second hand info I got from a customer so I have no idea how reliable it is. I always kept it in mind when adding my FO at 185 or 200 for GG palm. So far I have not noticed anything more significant that how the scent cured in the wax. I wonder if this is why some citrus scents in candles tend to have that off 'fuel' scent when burned. Something to think about for sure.

[jonsie]

Jonsie, my question about your theory about adding low FP FOs at low temps yielding better HT is this: Palm wax has to be poured at temps higher than 175°F to get good crystalization. If your theory is valid, wouldn't that mean that the same FOs would not throw well in palm wax?

Very interesting, Stella. I use GW464, so if my theory is correct with soy, maybe the palm has a quality to it that minimizes the breakdown of the EO? I'm really reaching with that, because I never would have guessed you would have had good results with it in palm. Thanks for telling me that.

It would have to be tested out for sure. However, there are so many variables in what goes into making a candle that could factor into the poor hot throw. Its also possible that the wax, any one of the materials you use, even the supplier you get your oils and materials from plays a role in addition to the technique you make your candles. Thats a lot of variables to rule out.

Agreed. My theory is based on mistakes and trial-and-error, and not deliberate controlled testing. I'm pouring more Pink Grapefruit EO in GW464 this week so I'll do a side batch at a higher temp to see if I can replicate the horrible fuel smell.

Supposedly this person was knowledgable about the perfume industry and claimed that certain elements of the oils themselves or subtle 'notes' could be burned, destroyed, or altered due to high temps.

I would love to talk with someone in the perfume industry to understand those same things. The folks at NGC seem pretty approachable so I may drop them a line.

I acknowledge that I may be completely wrong and other factors could easily be at work here, so thank you both for being open to this approach.

[spark-me-up]

ok, I'll chime in with my 2 cents worth! I've been testing EOs exclusively & have been adding them at the lowest temps poss for a couple of reasons...

a) I DON'T want the palm to have any effect- I want a smooth surface & from an Aromatherapy background, we are told that the lower the temp you burn an EO at the better, as the Oils are "highly volatile". (You can sort of see this in an oil burner... if you add near boiling water to the oil, it will "burn up" really fast & the fragrance will only last a few minutes. Adding to luke warm water will "hold" the oil & evaporate it MUCH slower, so fragrance lasts longer). I'm adding my Oils in at 175 & Pouring at 170. (with no dyes).

The cold throw is good. The hot throw is non existant!!! BUT, when I blow the flame out, the melt pool immediately starts throwing... & quite strongly. Even if I let the candle burn waaay down, the fragrance will still be as strong at the end, but again, only with the flame extinguished.

This has been driving me crazy. I've tried everything I can think of... Heating the Wax up to 180- 185 to add the Oils, mixing it through like a maniac (ok... a contolled maniac!) & then pouring again at the lower temp (to avoid effects in Palm) but to no avail. I haven't wanted to add the EOs in any higher as I was sure they'd "burn up" before I even poured.

I don't really know where to go from here. I have been seriously resisting putting any additives in the wax at all. I wanted the candles to be as Natural as possible, PLUS consistant supply of anything like that over here (AU) is impossible, so I don't want to become more "reliant" on anything I may not be able to source when I NEED it.

For what it's worth, that's what I've found & where I'm at! This has been an interesting thread... Thanks Guys!!!

NOTE: I should probably add that I haven't been testing with Pink Grapefruit, but with Oils of a similar "viscosity"... Lavendar & Chamomile.

Cheers =)

Edited August 16, 2011 by spark-me-up

[jonsie]

I have not noticed this with the soy or palm waxes that I use...

I just noticed your reference to soy. I'm stumped.

Hi Spark, what part of Oz are you in? And I'm pretty clueless about palm so I didn't know about the temps y'all have to work with until I read this thread. And like you, I want my EO candles to be as simple as possible... I don't use any additives either, just soy from the box.

I'm adding my Oils in at 175 & Pouring at 170. (with no dyes).

NOTE: I should probably add that I haven't been testing with Pink Grapefruit, but with Oils of a similar "viscosity"... Lavendar & Chamomile.

Lavender usually has an FP around 160F, and the Chamomiles much lower at 135/140F. I usually add my Lavender at around 145F and I have very good HT in my soy. I haven't added my Lavender at higher temperatures so I don't know how it would behave if it got to 170 - 175F. As for the Chamomile, what kind of concentration is it? Is it in 3% Jojoba? If so, that might be your problem... that seems to kill the HT in my candles. If it is 100% Chamomile, I haven't had much luck with that either. It is sooooo expensive so I decided to hold off on testing until I understood EOs better.

... PLUS consistant supply of anything like that over here (AU) is impossible...

Amen to that! You need to join us in our other Aussie thread as we bitch about the suppliers here

Again, I know zip about palm. But I can't help but think that if you added your EOs at lower temperatures you might get better results.

Good luck

[Candybee]

I think part of the problem with EOs is that they are not made exclusively for candlemaking. The best oils to use for candlemaking are good quality FOs. There are many FOs that have EOs in them. I use quite a few of these and love them as they typically work the best in my candles.

spark-me-up have you thought about just making wickless aromatherapy candles and tarts? Since its for aromatherapy the point is the therapeutic effect so wouldn't a better delivery system be what you want? I make the suggestion only because you mentioned you have much better luck getting a good hot throw once the candle is extinguised. Sounds to me like wickless may be the better the way to go.

[chuck_35550]

I think you have to look at the formulation. Some fos are formulated specifically for soy or vegetable waxes and others are listed as doing well in blends or paraffin. I would be more aware of whether the fo is tested in what medium and what recommendations the mfg offers on temps. Remember that fo does not bind with the wax it merely blends after sufficient agitation (stirring for long enough period of time). Eos are a totally different animal and I don't believe the original intent was for candle making. I know in the long run, each of us will do what works for us but it rarely works for all of us. Soy is an unstable wax that can change dramatically from batch to batch and certainly brand to brand. Temperature variance in wax can swing rapidly and I doubt any of us have monitured wax temps from start to finish and would probably be surprised at the rise and fall of temps based on environmental conditions. Clear as mud?

Steve

[Stella1952]

certain elements of the oils themselves or subtle 'notes' could be burned, destroyed, or altered due to high temps

I have read this too and my problem with it is always, well, the temperature of the FLAME is gonna be a LOT higher than that, sooooo..... Now I realize that it is the temperature of the MELT POOL that makes the difference in whether or not a fragrance throws. If an EO or FO is so delicate that it can't handle 200°F, how can it possibly hold up in a candle application where the interior temps near the flame get far hotter than that?

While I don't expect EOs to do as well in candles precisely because they are not manufactured for that purpose, I DO expect FOs to perform reasonably well. The vehicle or carrier oil in which a fragrance is diluted has a bearing on how well it holds up in different wax types (ie. soy, palm, paraffin) and even within the different brands.

I have been pleased with the EOs I have used, but I do find that they are lighter in HT than an equivalent FO. Warming a fragrance is one thing; burning it is quite another. This is where mainstream aromatherapy and candlemaking may diverge... Arguably, candles may not be the ideal medium for aromatherapy applications.

[rjdaines]

Trying to wrap my head around all of this as it applies to FO in soy wax. I quick survey of FO that work for me show no apparent trend related to HT and flash point. I add my FOs at 180, hold at that temp for 2 min and stir, then cool (stirring) to pour temp. It seems to me that the HT is more related to melt pool size, depth and temp rather than it combustion in the flame. The wax acts as a matrix to hold the FO while the flame is the agent that melts the wax and released the fragrance. I never considered the flame as the actual dispersal agent though a mushrooming wick could possibly. The idea of the FO "binding" to the wax seems to be in question here too. Some say it does and others disagree. Undoubtedly there is some molecular interaction and vybar seems to suggest that this binding can be almost irreversible but exactly what this interaction is I don't know. In any case, given enough heat, it should be able to be over come unless the FO degrades prior to that. But, you are all talking about EOs more than FOs.

[chuck_35550]

That's it in a nutshell (what rjdaines said). I've always looked at "all natural" eo based candles as aromatherapy. The essential oils of plants have certain properties that affect the human system. People should be well schooled about spices, eos or other naturally occurring substances that are known to be powerfully irritating if not applied in the proper levels. But back to the original question of temperature affecting fo performance; Stella has posted some interesting material about crystal structure in soy and or palm waxes and how they are affected by tempering. You could search those posts and see if there's an answer there. I like to warm the fo and blend for at least 2 minutes before pouring and continue to stir until all the wax is poured up. It's easier for me to see the results because I don't use color and I use a clear pour pot. Left alone even for a minute or so and the fo begins to collect on the bottom. HTH

[FarmerJill]

It's easier for me to see the results because I don't use color and I use a clear pour pot. Left alone even for a minute or so and the fo begins to collect on the bottom. HTH

Steve, how do you ever get a candle or tart to set up without separating then? If the fo would separate in the pot after sitting for a minute, it seems it would also separate in your poured container. Plus, after every burn. Or am I not following your train of thought correctly?

[chuck_35550]

Have you ever poured a large batch of candles and for some reason one of them or more had less ct and maybe there was some adherance issues but all the rest were just fine? No? I was getting the occasional bum candle and noticed that heavy oils were more difficult to keep suspended, in fact, some were so heavy that they did settle to the bottom during the cooling phase. Lighter perfume type fos seemed to blend and stay suspended better than heavy foodie fos; so I stir and agitate after each candle poured. I keep my spoon in the pot and hold onto it while pouring and then stir as I go to the next container. There are fos that are soy based just for a better blending capability (or maybe thats just hype) but if you look at the wax you'll see streams or ribbons of fo suspended throughout the container. Still clear as mud?

[MyJuliet]

I think your hypothesis is compelling, I will pay close attention to my use of the office, FP, see if I tell the difference, because you experience ... ... in a much lower temperature than I do my share waste project, so I will let an opportunity.

____________________________

Tera Items|Buy Runescape Gold

Edited August 17, 2011 by MyJuliet

[jonsie]

Many good issues have been brought up regarding FOs, EOs, and FPs, and I don't have the knowledge to address them all.

However, I did do a pour test yesterday, with Group 1 having Pink Grapefruit EO added at 180F, and Group 2 having Pink Grapefruit EO added at 108F. The wax came from the same melt pot, the EO came from the same bottle, all the same equipment was used for both Groups, and both were poured at the same temperature (105-108F).

I made six maxi lights from each Group. So six pairs of testers. I'd like to get some unbiased feedback on this, so if anyone would like to be a judge, I am happy to mail you one from each Group. Just send me a PM and I'll get these out to you. They'll be coming from Oz, so by the time you get them, they'll be nice and cured

[spark-me-up]

Ok jonsie... I'm putting my hand up!!!!! Only my forum/ board knowledge is even worse than my candle making abilities!!!! Can't work out for the life of me how to send a PM!!! GRRR.

If you haven't found anyone willing by now, I'm your gal! I'll keep trying to work out the PM situation in the mean time! =) I'm in Vic, by the way.

Edited August 18, 2011 by spark-me-up

[spark-me-up]

As to previous posts...

@jonsie... I appreciate your Palm suggestions, even if from a Soy perspective. I hadn't thought of trying to add/ pour at LOWER temps! Still, though your theory sounds a good one, it becomes complicated (surprise!) by a few of the more recent posts. Anyway, at this point, I am willing to give anything & everything a red hot go. I was lucky enough to score a stash of pure Chamomile, so it has afforded me this testing luxury, but yes, it IS very expensive. Still not much use for the stuff if I can't make it work, so round & round I go

@Candybee... thanks for your suggestions too. What you say makes sense & I would be totally wacking out melts BUT I have got Customers very keen for Pillars only. In fact, they're trying to place "pre orders" but I won't take any until I know I can crack this. Imagine!!! I have people banging down my door but I can't deliver. SO frustrating!!! I don't want to do a half assed job & risk putting out duds, so if I lose a few in the wait, I still think it's for the best. As with us all, I'm really passionate about making The Best.... but man! Sometimes circumstances try you to the MAX! Grrr!!!

@chuck... "clear as mud?" Actually... what you said makes sense =) We all are obviously on the same insane wave length. I mean, come on... I am realising we all suffer from a certain kind of madness us candle crazies =) Thanks for the heads up about @Stellas crystal structure threads. I will have a scout around & try to get my head around it all.

@Stella... you said something along the lines of "... if an EO or an FO can't handle 200*F..." & you made a great point. I am trying different wicks now, but think even if I wick down to where the EO is "happy" the actual candle simply won't burn properly. Still, I am plagued because I see & have sampled EO pillars that DO have great throws. A lot of them are Soy these days, but I'm talking Palm too. I would swap to Soy but have requests strictly for Palm (whatever!!!). It can be done... but HOW I wail!!! They MUST be adding additives. Still if you plug a candle full of those, how can you claim it's completely "Natural"? Maybe I'm just being naive =( That might turn out to be the only way, but I have to exhaust all the avenues I can think of before I "succumb". I agree that any EO candles I have sampled have a MUCH lighter throw than FOs. Another good point of yours "... Arguably, candles may not be the ideal medium for Aromatherapy applications" & as @Candybee said... melts may indeed be the better way to go.

Thanks to all of you who addressed my troubles & I didn't mean to take over the thread =( Pretty much ALL of my friends & family think I've lost it by now. All I hear is "Oh, it's just a candle... you're over complicating everything..." You simply CAN'T convey to the "uninitiated" just what we are subjected to... & WHY we do it!!! =)

[rjdaines]

As to previous posts...

They MUST be adding additives. Still if you plug a candle full of those, how can you claim it's completely "Natural"? Maybe I'm just being naive =( That might turn out to be the only way

You are quite right, you and "they" should not be using the term "natural" for soy-based candles as soy wax is not a natural product (found in nature). Soy wax and Palm wax are produce from the respective plant's oil and converted to a wax by a chemical, industrial process. Bee's wax and bayberry wax two that we reference as a natural product. Depending on the source of the soy, the following might be applicable qualities: organic, non-GMO, sustainable or domestic...

Edited August 18, 2011 by rjdaines

[spark-me-up]

This is true! =) "Sustainable" is big over here. Aussies LOVE to hear that word. As far as "Domestic" goes... I think we can only claim that of beeswax. May be wrong, but I don't know of any Palm or Soy actually being produced here. Hmmm.

Slightly off topic, but I'd love to see/ burn a Bayberry candle! I had never even heard about them until I came accross something or another here. Have you worked with this wax rjaines?? 15 lbs of Bayberries to make one lb of wax. I'd like to know what it smells like! I imagine it's quite expensive but its applications are very limited... 46C/ 47C MP?!