What is the deal...

[RichardLOZ]

Damn I hope that Tracy does not read this thread. I luckily only have a few dozen failed or completed testers, as well as a few dozen jars af various shapes and sizes which I am going to do something with one of these days, just not right now.... LOL

[LuminousBoutique]

Good thing I'd swallowed my mouthful of coffee...

And FYI, failed testers around here get melted down for firestarters.

AHHH I tried! I told him that I could melt them down, use them for something.. he gave me "that look" and said maybe i wouldnt have a storage issue if i didnt store so much stuff... sigh

[CandleCrush]

I understand what your saying here...just don't assume everyone without 30000 posts here has never made a candle before or any other product! I am new to candle tech but I have been making candles and fragrances since 1998. Although it may take some trial and error it's definitely not rocket science and neither is making soap!

[Dolphin146]

I understand what everyone is saying. I have been testing for what seems like forever LOL. But I will never sell a candle that hasen't been tested. I had a woman want a candle with a scent I have never used. I told her that I could not make it in the time she wanted cause it would have to be tested. Well she tells me whats so hard about that and can't I just make it and give it to her. I told her no I do not sell candles unless they have been tested and meet my standards. Needless to say she went somewere else to get her candle. I guess it must be the time of the year again.

[EricofAZ]

In every business there is someone that jumps in that is not yet seasoned or qualified.

I remember reading a story in the newspaper when I was a kid (yeah, that was in the late 60's or early 70's) about a crane operator. The reporter asked him how he was able to get such an interesting job operating a crane that built our first skyscraper (22 stories).

He said he was self taught. One day he realized that he wanted to operate cranes so he applied and didn't get a job. Then he applied again to another company and got fired the first day. Then he applied to another company and was fired in 3 days. Then he applied to another company and lasted 2 weeks before getting fired. Eventually he lasted a few months and learned the business. Then got fired. Then he got hired in our town and did a right fine job.

I've seen this in aviation and marine jobs as well. Not a surprise at all that in soap and candle making there are folks who dive in wide eyed and bushy tailed. Hopefully they don't hurt someone.

[MoonshadowLane]

..........Makes you wonder how many candle makers are out there like this.

Cheers,

Steve

It has been my experience that concern for quality has more to do with one's relationship with the man in the mirror than success in the marketplace.

[Faerywren]

I understand what your saying here...just don't assume everyone without 30000 posts here has never made a candle before or any other product! I am new to candle tech but I have been making candles and fragrances since 1998. Although it may take some trial and error it's definitely not rocket science and neither is making soap!

Number of posts is irrelevant. I'm speaking of those who come to a forum (not just this one) admitting they have never made a single thing, but their plan is to start a business tomorrow, so "give me all the info you've gleaned over the years, please." And yes, I know it isn't rocket science, but lack of knowledge and practice leads to folks making bath and body products using fragrance oils from the Wal-Mart potpourri section, or candles that don't burn correctly in containers that can't support the heat. Thereby giving the "little guy" a bad reputation and the general public a wariness of buying from us.

And then we have the "experienced" ones who knowingly churn out crap but don't care...but that's a different thread entirely.

[Wessex]

For about the past week I have been searching every post possible regarding soy and parasoy tarts and clamshells (going into testing phase as soon as all the companies open back up and I can purchase needed supplies). I have been AMAZED at the amount of posts asking what is the best wax, what are the best FO's, how do you do it (want all the particulars explained), etc. Most are from relative new members, but some have been from members with lots of posts. (Oh, and as an aside, one person claimed to have made soy candles for years, but then asked what the GB stood for in GB415!)

I assume some people just don't know that the search feature exists or how to use it, but please! Do some basic research and testing before asking how to do specific things. Then ask questions if you encounter a problem or issue. Yes, it is expensive and time consuming. I guess I just have no tolerance for people wanting to take unearned shortcuts. Hell, for me this board has been a great shortcut!! So much great and useful information here. Don't know how far behind I would have been (in both time and money) if I had not come across this board (found it while researching, LOL). I'm sure I asked some stupid questions a few months ago :smiley2:. But please don't put a wick in some wax with something that smells pretty and sell it!

Sorry, where was I? Oh, yeah, rambling on. I think people get what I am saying. Just had to post after realizing how many people have come here through the years and asked how to do something so they could be at a craft show next weekend, or sell on Ebay, or wherever else.

BTW, I definately appreciate all the people who contribute their time and knowledge to this board.

Cheers,

Steve

[LuminousBoutique]

lol... got this from someone on my etsy last night:

I have a question, I am making the lip balms also, but im haveing an issue with getting it to twist up. Is there a secret to this?

Thanks so much

*omitted for her own safety*

*sighs* this is a daily thing. I wouldnt walk into a restaurant and ask for their recipes so why do people think its OK to ask US for our "secrets to making lip balm tubes twist":laugh2:

[LuminousBoutique]

Number of posts is irrelevant. I'm speaking of those who come to a forum (not just this one) admitting they have never made a single thing, but their plan is to start a business tomorrow, so "give me all the info you've gleaned over the years, please." And yes, I know it isn't rocket science, but lack of knowledge and practice leads to folks making bath and body products using fragrance oils from the Wal-Mart potpourri section, or candles that don't burn correctly in containers that can't support the heat. Thereby giving the "little guy" a bad reputation and the general public a wariness of buying from us.

And then we have the "experienced" ones who knowingly churn out crap but don't care...but that's a different thread entirely.

Yep or the people who see things like our local morning show did.. where they told people to use the paraffin canning wax from the grocery store and put "fragrance" in it and make their own tarts. Brilliant. Then those people see it doesnt work, but wont give up and keep coming after US to get answers. Heres your answer: do some research, or buy ours. Simple.

[Wessex]

Just wanted to add another irritating thing I just noticed: people who have been members for years but with only a few posts. And all the posts are asking things like "what are your bestselling..", "any ideas for new...", "where do you get your..."! You get the idea. All take and never give. Come on people, this is a sharing board! I know I try to share my limited knowledge, and there are members here who do WAY more than their share of helping. Sorry, ranting again. Snowed in and nothing to do but pour different tart blends and bitch, LOL. Believe it or not, I'm actually in a pretty good mood!

Cheers,

Steve

[sherry]

Hey Wessex ! I would hate to see you in a bad mood!

[Wessex]

Hey Wessex ! I would hate to see you in a bad mood!

I'm never in a bad mood :rolleyes2! I learned a long time ago to never post angry, LOL. If I am PO'd about something I will wait until the next day and see if I still want to say something. Usually not :smiley2:.

Cheers,

Steve

[adillenal]

I agree soap making may not be rocket science but I swear I believe making shampoo is. I have been researching this topic since I would like to learn how to make shampoo bars and liquid shampoo. My eyes are crossed from reading so much about surfactants, humectants, moisturizers, and so on and what works together and what doesn't. Yikes.

By the way I finally produced my very first shampoo bar and everyone in the family has used it and have all survived. It has been many years since I needed to know this much chemistry,

Anybody want to buy my first shampoo bar?? Based on the amount of money I have spent on various ingredients to try, it will only be $99.00 but is a large bar at 4 oz.

[Scented]

I'm loving reading all of the replies to this thread.

I was doing a market one weekend and a couple came up and started looking at my stuff. The matriarch was sweet as could be and asked me, "This is all yours? You make all this?" I told her I did. She then turned to her husband and said, "We need to tell (insert grown daughter with 3 young children's name here) about this. This would be something she could do." I was then told all about this daughter who was a stay at home mom and needed to find something to make money. She took a business card and informed me "I'm going to get your number so my daughter can call you and get help." I was speechless. And I only got one e mail from the daughter by the way. Luckily, after her mother told her about me, she went online and researched for herself. She realized it wasn't all that easy and decided it was not for her. I commend her.

If you all have any stories like this one, please, add them! I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd enjoy 'em!

Well how sweet of her to think you would just kill your business for her daughter.

I used to have a partner who would stand there and tell people exactly what was in the products, where I got the stuff from etc. until I told him he was going to be mighty sore hanging from his balls when we got home.

I know we've had people say similar things to us. Some just stand there, read the ingredients and say now how hard can that be? It's just x, y, z. Well when you make it, let me know how hard it was, because there's more to it than tossing this or that in there, but you wouldn't know that would you? Best of luck to you and move on. There are people you are holding up.

[Scented]

AHHH I tried! I told him that I could melt them down, use them for something.. he gave me "that look" and said maybe i wouldnt have a storage issue if i didnt store so much stuff... sigh

Ohhhhh ... I know his brother!! I date him! He's always saying well if you quit ordering this, that or the other and then he calls from a show and says ... "Hey, do we have xyz?"

"No," I say.

"I could swear we had it."

"Long time ago, maybe," I say.

Long pregnant pause and then me again, "What?"

"Well how hard would it be to get it?"

"Probably not hard at all, but when it comes time for inventory, would you promise not to blame for everything we have?" Me.

[Scented]

Just wanted to add another irritating thing I just noticed: people who have been members for years but with only a few posts. And all the posts are asking things like "what are your bestselling..", "any ideas for new...", "where do you get your..."! You get the idea. All take and never give. Come on people, this is a sharing board! I know I try to share my limited knowledge, and there are members here who do WAY more than their share of helping. Sorry, ranting again. Snowed in and nothing to do but pour different tart blends and bitch, LOL. Believe it or not, I'm actually in a pretty good mood!

Cheers,

Steve

Were your wheaties soggy before adding milk? LOL!

What's wrong with asking that question? I'm always curious what sells for others ... I already know what moves here for us, but find it rather funny others can move heaven and earth filled with vanilla and I can't move a thing.

[Wessex]

Didn't get my Wheaties, LOL.

I think it is fine to ask what scents are selling and stuff like that. But some questions just irked me. Guess I was just being bitchy . Have spent so many days searching through old posts and kept seeing people with no posts asking how to do something (obviously not having done any research), and then once they are answered they disappear, never to be heard from again. Think I am probably just overly stimulated at the moment !

Hope everone had a Merry Christmas.

Cheers,

Steve

[Scented]

Ignoring that stimulation comment lol!

Now here's something to keep in mind too ... some will try it and then ask questions because it failed. I used to do that all the time and then get lectured because I was a noob in that area and not following protocol, but you know ... everyone says they try or tried this or just can't find it and maybe 90% of those really didn't.

I used to make and run into stuff, freak out and then just ask the question after doing what I thought I was supposed to do. I learned that way, but at the same time I learned not to ask if all I was going to get was a lecture w/out some more helpful advice. I wasn't the half thinking oh cool, I can make soap after one log. Let's sell it! My partner was until I made a nice batch that was a tingly while I was trying to learn to make my own recipe in search of the glorious non-drying bubbly soap. It honestly took that happening for him to chill out and stop thinking all you do is put a wick in it or add oils and lye and get soap. Then he would learn the basics of the process so he could inform anyone who asked (till I threatened him in more ways than one.) Same thing started to happen with the soap and I didn't know enough to make a batch that would bite him ... I just accidentally made one lol. Now he still gets that way when I go playing around with something knew and if it's something I know what I'm doing, I'll purposely mess it up and say, "darn, back to the drawing board."

Edited December 27, 2010 by Scented

[kyme1911]

Wow, I feel kinda hurt by this thread...I am the kind of person that likes to share anything I have learned. Just because I had to learn the hard way doesn't mean others should have to. I though it was about sharing knoweldge and skills.

[Wessex]

I don't mind sharing either. But if you simply hand answers to people who are planning to sell, they don't really learn anything about the products they are going to be selling. This is not a good thing. As Stella has pointed out (many times, LOL), a candle is a system. You have to learn and be familiar with all parts of that system to make a reliable and safe product. The best way to do this is through testing. You learn just as much from failures as you do from successes! What you learn from one test you can apply to other tests. Plus why should I spend thousands of dollars with R&D and hand over my results to someone who may be my competition? Do you thing Microsoft would do this? Candlemaking is a fairly friendly business, but a business nontheless.

If someone makes a good, honest attempt to find answers and THEN requests help, I have no problems with that. But don't jump on the board and ask for things on a silver platter. Irritating! I am sure I have asked some stupid things when I did not know any better, but I am willing to spend my time and money learning as I go. I am currently testing soy and parasoy tarts. Spent LOTS of time research (including way too many hours reading and rereading all posts on this board). Now I am testing all possible ways to make them, including trying many of the ideas I have found here, both successes and failures. Why test both? Because that is the way I learn the waxes. And of course what works for one doesn't work for another.

Not trying to rant and rave, just giving my opinion. And this is not meant to be mean and bitchy in anyway. Of course, if I do need to ask a question down the road, I will probably get bitch at :smiley2:!

Cheers,

Steve

[ProudMarineMom]

Ignoring that stimulation comment lol!

Now THAT had me laughing. The visuals were already starting in my head... No offense Steve.

Kyme, I'm kinda like you, I have no problem with sharing what I know. Unfortunately, I don't know a whole heck of a lot yet, but if I do, I am happy to make a comment. But, I think the point the others are trying to make is the difference between giving advice to someone you know is testing and tries to apply what you've said to their situation, or will just take the information, make the product just like that then sell it the next day on Etsy or at craftshows.

Yes, these people will not last long. They will not be able to intelligently answer any questions someone asks or understand the reason why you make the product the way you do. But, it's those people that hurt those Crafters that have learned the hows and whys through testing and trial and error.

Although not really the same, I try to liken it to someone becoming a doctor. The students in medical school are taught exactly how to do certain procedures. But, they still have to go through years of training before they gain any expertise. Just because they read about it doesn't mean I would want them performing any surgery on me. I don't care if they did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

So don't be hurt, Kyme, they aren't asking you not to share. Just be aware that not everyone is willing to put forth the dedication to the craft.

[LuminousBoutique]

Wow, I feel kinda hurt by this thread...I am the kind of person that likes to share anything I have learned. Just because I had to learn the hard way doesn't mean others should have to. I though it was about sharing knoweldge and skills.

I think there is a fine line between sharing and handing information over on a silver platter like wessex said. I've had people ask me "could you tell me your wick, wax, container combo? Oh and where you got your ___ fo?" I mean.. come on! I am in business.. I am trying to make a living. I certainly will help anyone I can but there is a difference between asking for assistance with wicking if what they are trying isnt working.. or saying "OK I've narrowed it down to four choices, help me choose two..." but asking specifically for someone to basically do the testing for you isnt cool.

You shouldnt be hurt.. you dont do that Kyme! You're pretty darn smart, woman. You've worked hard for what you know.. you've put in your testing.. and why shouldnt they too? Too many people go on etsy, artfire, zibbet, ebay.. and sell inferioir products just trying to make a quick buck and I get frustrated when I hear them or see them suggest CS as a place to come and get all the answers with none of the work. Thats what gets to me.

Its just the difference between asking "hey I'm thinking of trying this. have any of you done it..." than "tell me how to do this, with step by step instructions" and then they dont even say thank you

[EricofAZ]

Well, I appreciate the concern that is threaded through this thread. Chandlers have an age old secret that is passed down generation to generation. The internet tends to offend those secrets (National Treasure).

I have noticed that even the most expensive "candle secrets" books are just nothing more than introductory recipe writings.

On one hand, sharing some of the truth about testing and waxes can debunk and expose the expensive "fraud" books. I say "fraud" because I refer to very cursory introductory books that claim to be master's secrets when in fact, they are not even to the level as this forum.

On the other hand, I agree with some of the above comments that we give away too much too quickly to new members. And, by the number of posts, I am a new member.

What strikes me about this is that the "jump in and get rich quick" folks, aka "I want to operate a crane" folks, still will not get it right from this forum. Oh, the info is correct, but the operation is a bit more complex.

So I'm not too concerned about the folks who dash by and get a freebie and open a candle company. At some point they will regret it. If they are smart enough to really figure this out, then it will only be after a lot of personal trials and they hopefully will have info to share with the rest of us.

Case in point: I have a bunch of pillars out there and I pulled back and melted the ones with white dye to make firestarters because when the wick hits the white dye portion, it chokes. (more on this in a new thread)

Also case in point: Despite having a good wick for a particular application, I have learned that it smokes too much when blown out (vs. being dipped). So I found a replacement after testing 5 different types of wicks and 3 or 5 sizes each.

I am of the belief that a chandler knows their wax and their dyes and their wicks and their EO's and their FO's and their containers and their moulds and there is only one way to accomplish that ... lots of testing and personal experience, a good memory, notes, some CO-Q-10, and attention to detail.

Wessex is right, we gave away a lot to folks who have not contributed to this forum. I read and participated in some of the threads and think better of it now.

However, sharing is something that we should not be stingy about with those who contribute.

I wish a wonderful 2011 to all.

[CandleCrush]

It well may be that some new members here are a little hesitant to offer any advice for fear of recrimination. Some people don't take criticism very well or feel that new people have much to offer in the way of useful information.

I have an extensive background in business, marketing and design, but I don't think very many people here would be willing to listen to my advice for the simple fact that I have only been a member for a short time.

Any way thats my 2 cents for what it's worth! :smiley2: