Holy crap....

[CathyinME]

I'm getting back into gels & am shocked:shocked2: at the price of gel:angry2: Over $3 lb w/ shipping. That just sucks:sad2:

[Bernadette]

I have consistently used gel for almost 13 years, and the price really started to increase when Penreco sold the gel making operation a year or so ago(can't remember exactly when). For example, HP gel from one popular supplier went from $139.50/50 lbs. to $175.00/50 lbs. within 2 mos. time! And then with the rate increases in shipping...it's ridiculous. 360 lb. drums went up $200.00-250.00/drum.

[EricofAZ]

Time to make our own gel.

[Bernadette]

I would not do it for a couple of reasons.

First, back when you could readily buy gel ingredients online, I had to buy some to test because it was really less expensive than penreco then. Without super precise mixing, the end product had all kinds of problems - clouding, burn problems, much lower burn times, low fragrance loads, trouble suspending items, etc. Just about anything you could think of. Much more susceptible to flashing. Alot of people were making their own back then, and gel candles were getting a bad, unsafe, undesireable rating from customers. I never sold candles made from anything but penreco, and I strongly believe that's what grew my business. Customers that gave my candles a try....some have been customers for the entire 13 years I've been selling them, and recommend them to others. They could really tell the difference and told me so. For the time being, penreco is the only gel I will use for it's quality and reliability, and as long as it sells at the prices I have to charge.

Since all I sold for a long time was gel candles, believe it or not, I had a customer buy a wineglass candle from me several years ago. I thought it kind of odd at the time that he called and asked what kind of gel I used. I told him penreco and the density. Then he asked if all my candles were made using penreco. Turned out he was a patent attorney on retainer to penreco, and when he received the candle, they dissected it to make sure I was telling the truth! He is still a registered customer in my webstore, and I've spoken to him several times since that first encounter. He told me they check from time to time, not only online but in local markets for violations. I would not want to be the one sued.:tiptoe:

[jaxxcandles]

I agree with the price shock. I have been away from gel for a little while and started pricing to get back into it and could not believe the prices!

[MissMori]

I would not do it for a couple of reasons...

Since all I sold for a long time was gel candles, believe it or not, I had a customer buy a wineglass candle from me several years ago. I thought it kind of odd at the time that he called and asked what kind of gel I used. I told him penreco and the density. Then he asked if all my candles were made using penreco. Turned out he was a patent attorney on retainer to penreco, and when he received the candle, they dissected it to make sure I was telling the truth! He is still a registered customer in my webstore, and I've spoken to him several times since that first encounter. He told me they check from time to time, not only online but in local markets for violations. I would not want to be the one sued.:tiptoe:

I'm curious, violations of what? Patents are for inventions, not ideas. Someone could formulate another gel and not violate Penreco's patent.

I would be interested to know how they dissected the candle, specifically whether a chemical analysis would necessarily tell them how the gel was made. Would it be like trying to reverse engineer a bar of soap, including the fragrance used, by doing a chemical analysis of the soap itself?

[deb426]

I'm curious, violations of what? Patents are for inventions, not ideas. Someone could formulate another gel and not violate Penreco's patent.

I would be interested to know how they dissected the candle, specifically whether a chemical analysis would necessarily tell them how the gel was made. Would it be like trying to reverse engineer a bar of soap, including the fragrance used, by doing a chemical analysis of the soap itself?

He probably was testing to see if it was really Penreco because she told him it was. I've heard the Coca Cola will go to bars and ask for a "rum and Coke" and test the product to see if it was really Coke and not Pepsi or other cola.

[MissMori]

He probably was testing to see if it was really Penreco because she told him it was. I've heard the Coca Cola will go to bars and ask for a "rum and Coke" and test the product to see if it was really Coke and not Pepsi or other cola.

This made me laugh. Can you imagine? Wouldn't it be a little peculiar to order a drink and then pour it into a to-go cup? Or are they more subtle and just pour it into their purse(s)?

They could possibly sue for false advertisement if it wasn't really Penreco, not patent/trademark/license and any other number of things being infringed. Just curiosity on my part.

[deb426]

I heard they poured it in a flask or container on the sly. I think they do take it pretty seriously. That's why you are always informed by the waitress at Pizza Hut if you order a coke that they have Pepsi.

[Bernadette]

MissMori, I'm neither a legal scholar nor a scientist, so I'm not sure how well I can satisfy your curiosity, but I'll give it a shot.

Penreco's patent is on gel. It was their invention. Over the weekend I was reading on a site that said their method of manufacture was the only consistent, safe, and reliable mehtod. If I can find it again when I have time to look for it, I'll post it. For the time being, this quote on Cajun Candles site is one of many I found:

"Penreco™ holds the patent on gel wax and will vigerously defend that patent against anyone attempting to capitalize on their trade mark."

In the early 2000s, there were quite a few places that sold the oil and resin, to make your own gel. Penreco went after them, and within a couple years, they all shut down. In those early years of gel popularity, they also went after anyone selling gel candles exclusively, or in large quantity. Can't verify they still do, as it isn't a worry for me, but I don't think a reputable attorney would lie about something like that.:tiptoe:

As far as how they checked the candle....I haven't a clue:confused:, but since they are a chemical company, I'm confident they have a way.

[MissMori]

... but I don't think a reputable attorney would lie about something like that.:tiptoe:

Reputable attorneys are a very rare bread indeed.

I'm going to do a bit of poking around myself to see if I can find information on any complaints that were filed by Penreco. Attorneys and big businesses have NEVER used scare tactics against competitors. :rolleyes2

They may have invented a gel that is suitable for candle making, but they don't own a patent that prevents someone else from inventing another gel that is suitable. Think of it this way... someone invented the bicycle. That didn't stop other inventors from taking the original idea and improving it, filing their own patents on their improvements (their inventions.) I can see them wanting to prevent anyone claiming they are using Penreco if they are using something else for their gel candles.

"Penreco™ holds the patent on gel wax and will vigerously defend that patent against anyone attempting to capitalize on their trade mark."

Patents are for inventions. You own the patent only on the exact thing you invent. If someone else comes along and improves on your original invention, they can then patent their new invention that improves upon yours.

Trademarks are for protection of intellectual property rights for things such as your unique look, logo, mark, design, name, etc. Trade names are also protected.

Penreco may be trying to protect their formula. They could only prevent someone from using the EXACT formula they are using. Can't stop someone from formulating a gel candle that is slightly different than their formula. A question does arise if they are using a proprietary manufacturing process. That process would be protected. But from your earlier post, you stated that chandlers were manufacturing their own gels by mixing oils and resins, this makes me wonder if Penreco was engaging in scare tactics more than anything else.

Anyhoo... I'm going to see if I can find any information on possible lawsuits.

[Bernadette]

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-88823983.html

Here's one against Craft Express

[Bernadette]

This Craftserver thread also has some info you may not have seen:

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88104

[MissMori]

Thanks for the info. I couldn't get into the Highbeam article because I didn't want to give them my credit card number.

I did read the patent. Still doing more digging.

[Bernadette]

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Penreco+Settles+Patent+Infringement+Lawsuit+With+Craft+Express%3b+Craft...-a084241430

[Kawboy888]

The price increase is unfortunate but it's part of life. Remember the more gel you buy, the cheaper the cost. I just so happen to have 43.5 pounds of Penreco's CHP for sale. No one should be trying to make their own gel, nor should anyone be using any other gel other than Penreco's CHP. This is not just a hobby or a business, it's dealing with flammable and potentially very dangerous and life ending poly chlorinated hyrdocrabons. If you want to skimp on quality because you're cheap, you should not be making gel candles. The old rumor that gel candles will explode is because amateur candle makers were to cheap to buy a high quality gel, and would add too much fragrance oil, which greatly reduced the flash point of the candle. Remember, your candles are going into people's homes, you should not be messing with the quality of what you make when it is intended to be lit on fire. If you're not using Penreco's CHP or CMP at the lowest, you shouldn't be making candles period.