bsalmon26 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Just changed from C-3 to GW444. I LOVE this wax! No pour problems at all. For those who use GW444, which wicks do find give you the best hot throw? I have ECO, HTP and Cotton Core from Peak's. - Making dye free, 1/2 tsp Coc. Oil/pound is only thing I add.Thanks for your replies!Happy New Year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootie04 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 When I tested this wax I used CD wicks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caramel Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Just changed from C-3 to GW444. I LOVE this wax! No pour problems at all. For those who use GW444, which wicks do find give you the best hot throw? I have ECO, HTP and Cotton Core from Peak's. - Making dye free, 1/2 tsp Coc. Oil/pound is only thing I add.Thanks for your replies!Happy New Year!I am testing the 464 and wouldn't mind testing another wax. I really don't want to add anything, but would consider it. How are you pouring? I like that you can pour hot (liquid) or warm (syrupy). I don't think I could handle slushy wax (too many air bubbles... learned this by accident). I am almost tempted to try the CO (thinking of getting it from Whole Foods- for candles as well as for my hair *L*). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsalmon26 Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 I pour at 140 and have beautiful candles - not one crack and good adhesion.I struggled with C3 through entire holiday season. I hated this, because I have used C3 for years and always loved it. It's not quite the same now. I have been lucky since switching to 444. I've read so many posts, I was hoping to hear from those that use 444 to share which wicks they like best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pureblisscandles Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I only use cd wicks with 444....so far no problems for me with wicking however lately my candles are not looking so hot with the 444. I am having heatgun EVERY candle I pour, but back when I bought a test case my candles were awesome so I bought a whole pallet now cant get a decent looking without lots of work..... oh well I have a pallet so i have to make it work huh?good luck!Lysa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I've been using cd wicks. I really like them in everything I tried. I'm still testing my 444 too. I used to use c-3 but I couldn't wick that right for anything. And I've been making candles for years. So far, I'm loving the 444! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsalmon26 Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 I have CD wicks, but I think I will need larger ones. I am working with an 8oz Madison Jar from AH. would like to single wick, but may need to double wick with CDs. Do any of you use 8oz Madison jars?I pour 444 at 140 on the dot! I've always poured very slow, so that has remained the same.don't know what happened to C3. I was a huge proponent of this wax, but it isn't the same. The last 4 cases I used were absolutely full of bubbles! filling orders for holidays was a nightmare!I can get 444 much closer to me so shipping has been reduced, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 I use CD's as well with this wax. I had 2 different lot dates with my last pallet (can't believe they did that to me!) and the first 14 cases were a dream......then the last half were a nightmare! Terrible craters and sinkholes....have to do a repour on most all of them. Luckily things have slowed down a bit and I have some time to experiment with these last 9 cases...by the time I figure it out it will all be gone!! lol Anyway, the wicking has stayed the same! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsalmon26 Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 I'm leaning toward CD (have always liked these wicks)Anyone use 8oz Madison jars?Brenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandlekrazy Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I pour at 140 and have beautiful candles - not one crack and good adhesion.I struggled with C3 through entire holiday season. I hated this, because I have used C3 for years and always loved it. It's not quite the same now. I have been lucky since switching to 444. I've read so many posts, I was hoping to hear from those that use 444 to share which wicks they like best.So I'm not alone in thinking that C3 has changed....hmmmmmm. not happy with results I've been getting and was hoping it was just that batch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 It's still workin' for me, although I do believe the formula has changed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Strange you had problems with C3. I haven't tried that wax but had major problems with 402 during the busy season. Been using that wax for almost 5 years and many many problems SUDDENLY with wicking. When you have 5 scents and they all used to be fine with the 402 and medium/large cotton then suddenly something is wrong.You try different FO's and still bad problems. Husband and I decided with all this going wrong and nothing working go to a different wax. We changed to 444 and so far like it. The pour is great and don't need to use the heat gun to smooth.Hot throw is good also with the scents I tried. A creamy wax. As all of you said many of you suddenly had problems with C3 and think it really funny we had problems with the 402. We also noticed this too with fall and holiday time when I had alot of sales.The worst problem was when I was trying this with wholesale orders and things weren't working. Haven't heard from those wholesalers. Maybe sales were down but I don't know.We were able to catch the problem but felt funny telling them suddenly problems.Thank goodness one only wanted 10 fragrances. I wonder what was going on with these waxes when most of us had been using them for sometime??? I do remember from my supplier a new shipment came in. Maybe a new/different manufacturer??? LynnS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 IMHO, there are only a couple of manufacturers of soy wax in the country....and there are a BUNCH of types of soy wax.....so, when there is a weird batch of soy, it all just trickles down to all the different types. Do I make any sense? Anyway, that's is what I have come to conclude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I understand about the bad batches and so many different waxes BUT once a bad experience how can we go back and get that wax again.I couldn't go through what I went through again.I had to find something that worked.AND fast. Now what if my 444 gets this way.We then have to retest over and over all the fragrances and what wick works.Just way to expensive and way to much work with orders and wholesale to fill.We loose customers.They aren't going to understand. I know I lost business and I am not happy. A very busy time for me. Get a 5 lb bag to test and it works great then you go buy the 50 lbs and then it won't work. Just reading this post all who had the same problem(but different wax) seems unreal what we spent to test all different wicks and fragrances and nothing worked. Not only did we loose customers we have a bunch of wicks etc we may never use. I have so many types that not sure I will use but will keep just in case. I have 4 more waxes of 5 lb bags in case the 444 didn't work. The 435 wasn't to bad but I want one TYPE of wax that works. LynnS LynnS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I tend to try to ride with changes in wax before hopping on to a new one. There isn't any "perfect" soy-based wax that I have found or read about! C3 has been very reliable from case to case for me. I like the way the wicks I use work for veggie waxes, so I stick with them (CDNs). Environment (temperature, humidity, etc.) has a great deal to do with the behavior of soy wax, IMHO. I think that many times difficulties are not the result of a changed formula, but changed pouring conditions, procedures or ingredients. I stick with the same wax, same containers and the same wicks so that when I have a problem, I can go back to a known "constant" and work out the difficulty from there. The recent changes I noted with C3 resolved when I paid closer attention to temperature, from melting to pouring and cooling. I tend to get a little "fast & loose" when I am doing something I have done over and over again. Tightening up my procedures and noting what happens when and under what conditions has always solved the problems I have experienced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsalmon26 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 I loved C-3! I knew that the formula had changed slightly, but 2 separate shipments for a total of 10 cases was just too much for me. I still have some and have thought about combining 444 and C-3, but really don't have the time to play with that combo. I used C-3, CDN wicks, 1/2 tsp coconut oil and same containers with no problems for years. I loved the throw with C3, too!I still have some. If I had an answer for the millions of bubbles in every single batch, I would stick with it. Now I'm having trouble finding the right wick to use with 444. (Still haven't found the right one.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I am like you bsalmon26.I used 402 for 5 years, same wicks(small,med, large cotton) and the same jars.The 8 ounce JJ, 10 ounce Classic jar and the 16 ounce Country Jar. Nothing worked. . Even the small flower pot votive.Pretty bad when a large wick would have wax all over the sides of that small jar and no full melt pool.Just didn't make sense.I tried CD's and 3 other types of wicks and used the larger sizes of each and the itty bitty votive wouldn't work. Never a full melt pool or a clean burn.Something was wrong.I will look to see what I am using for the wicks.I forget the sizes but the 444 has worked great with the 2 larger jars but haven't tried the 8 ounce JJ.I will go with a medium wick with that. With the 444 I feel I will be able to go down to a medium wick after I test that.So far used a large wick.LynnS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsalmon26 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Well, I opted to try 444 because of the hot throw reviews. IMHO, nothing compared to the throw with C3 (I bet you will agree, Stella1952). Speaking of C3, Stella did you have to change anything to accommodate for the formula change in C3? I would LOVE to stick with C3, if I could get it to perform as it did. I did use USA (forgot to mention that). My USA supplier quit carrying C3 so also dropped USA. I have quite a bit left, but wouldn't know where to get more.CDN wicks are still my favorite. I guess I am in a real quandry after reading all your messages. My C3 problems are many; hot throw problems with 444; I am a creature of habit and hate the fact that I am in this predicament!!! So, I have both types of wax and a variety of wicks that are "new" to me. I have tried so many things, I need to step back and think. Any advice for an impatient person? I can't stand the thought of sending an order of "bad" candles that I thought were good.Thanks all - have a good evening.Brenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I am with Stella1952 with that I tend to ride with the changes of a particular wax. Not because I want to, but because I HAVE to. I purchase by the pallet, so I have no choice, but to work with what I have. Each pallet of wax has been different every time I get one. I can't say I have to TOTALLY wick differently with every new pallet, but there are different characteristics with each shipment. Sometimes I will have to wick up, or down or pour hotter, or cooler....it is very frustrating, but that is "natural soy". I don't know if I really believe that it is about the particular crop of soybeans... I mean, we have different crops with the vegetable shortening and corn oil we buy but do they look or feel different with each container? No, because they have more strict regulations for food because of the FDA. Soy wax is not a food, it is natural, or starts out that way and then it goes through the process to make an oil into a wax or higher melt point oil....anyway, it is not a food so not so strict of regulations to folllow, IMO. I bet the big guys get all the "GOOD" wax, lol. There is no way they would put up with all this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Speaking of C3, Stella did you have to change anything to accommodate for the formula change in C3? I would LOVE to stick with C3, if I could get it to perform as it did.Brenda, my best suggestion is contained in my last post..."...when I have a problem, I can go back to a known "constant" and work out the difficulty from there. The recent changes I noted with C3 resolved when I paid closer attention to temperature, from melting to pouring and cooling. I tend to get a little "fast & loose" when I am doing something I have done over and over again. Tightening up my procedures and noting what happens when and under what conditions has always solved the problems I have experienced."Try melting first and allowing the wax to completely cool, then remelting again for tempering & pouring. Pay close attention to your temps, tempering and stirring. Nothing else is required to get over the texture change. The wax seems to lose its temper when initially melted and needs to be carefully retempered before pouring. The texture difference, sponginess and bubbles will vanish when you straighten this out. I noted no difference in the cold/hot throw characteristics - C3 has always performed very well as far as throw is concerned. As I said before, I think that environmental conditions (pressure, temp, humidity, cooling, etc.) and procedures (melting temp, tempering temps, holding temp, pouring temp, cooling, etc.) play a LOT bigger role in making soy candles than people realize.Slow down a little... you've only been making these for a little over a year!! Get out some of the same ol' jars, wicks and FOs that always worked for you with C3 and play with your procedures a little bit. Take careful notes so you'll remember which of your ideas worked for ya and which were duds. My USA supplier quit carrying C3 so also dropped USA. I have quite a bit left, but wouldn't know where to get more.I too, use USA and JBN stopped carrying it along with C3, dammitalltohellandback, so I located and purchased some from Scent-Sations Candle Supplies. I haven't used it yet to see if it performs the same as the stuff JBN used to carry... Will let y'all know if it seems to be different... Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsalmon26 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Thanks, Stella and everyone. I will try the "slow" method today. You are right - over time I'm sure I haven't paid as close attention as I used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireStarter Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 As I said before, I think that environmental conditions (pressure, temp, humidity, cooling, etc.) and procedures (melting temp, tempering temps, holding temp, pouring temp, cooling, etc.) play a LOT bigger role in making soy candles than people realize.Stella, being new to this, does this apply to all soy waxes? (Sorry if that's a stupid question), and what is tempering and retempering? So when you melt the wax, do you heat it to the recommended heat point, where you would normally add the fragrance and oil, but instead, let it cool and harden again completely, and then remelt to the same temp?I am interested in this process.. have not read about it other than what you have stated. If you could explain this I would be greatly appreciative... also what affect does this have on the wax, I.E. does it change it in any way? I guess what I am trying to ask is what is the benefit of doing this? I am very curious now!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Firestarter, there's a ton of information in the veggie wax forum about tempering and the sensitivity of soy-based wax to temperature. This affects the surface of the wax both after pouring and when a candle cools after burning. A "good top" is completely smooth and satiny after pouring and burning. A poor top will be lumpy and look like cottage cheese. Temperature control is important in reducing the incidence of "frosting," of which there are several forms - some looks "ferny," some looks powdery and still another phase looks like cauliflower or brains and can completely cover a wick! A good place to start understanding about soy wax is to read what NGI (mfg. of Ecosoya products) has to say about soy wax and polymorphism. Some soy waxes contain monoglycerides to help with the texture of the wax; others use secret "botanical oils," etc. Still others are plain ol' superhydrogenated food-grade soybean oil (shortening). Different waxes have slightly different properties. The FOs we use are not all created the same. Dyes can also contribute to increasing frosting issues. Some folks use other additives such as coconut oil, shortening, olive oil, USA, and other emulsifiers to improve the texture of soy wax and increase its resistance to "frosting" (changes in the crystal phase of the wax similar to what one sees in chocolate bloom). Tempering is a technique used to help stabilize the crystal phases in chocolate (a vegetable oil based product). Searching the forums for "tempering," "frosting," and "chocolate" should produce some of the "meatier" threads of discussion on the peculiar nature of soy wax. Many folks bypass a lot of this by adding paraffin or purchasing a parasoy wax blend. What works for one person may not work for another, so if you are having issues, it's a good idea to arm oneself with plenty of tips to try.Here are a couple of oldies but goodies to get you started...one where we discussed the similarities of tempering chocolate and soy wax...http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61303&highlight=temperAnd another where Jason from Golden Brands discussed tempering procedure for GB 464http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?p=197532post197532There are lots of others... seek and ye shall find! Again, if you are not experiencing any problems with your soy candles, please apply the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy. Soy wax is SOOOO not like paraffin! This is why it is very important to test, test, test your candles over time - temperature plays a role in the initial appearance of soy candles but also plays a role in the long-term cosmetic resiliency of soy candles. When you have a question, search the veggie wax forum and you will usually find discussion that covers most issues that crop up. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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