What would you do?

[thecandlespastore]

So lets say you order something from a company that only sells bath and body products ( no food whatsoever.) And you get your order and there is an extra sample bar in a bag with a coupon with the words Brown Sugar and Fig on it. Would you assume it was soap or another bath and body related product since said company only sells bath and body related items? Our would you assume it was a piece of fudge and let your kid take a bite of it, even though clearly it smells like a fragrance not akin to fudge at all. Then get mad at the seller because your child took a bite out of a bar of soap?

I had this happen, either my sweety did not add the word soap on the label, or whatever, but this is the email I received from the buyer:

"

As an extra, you sent something in a plastic bag that looked like fudge, and my son took a bite out of it.

YOU SHOULD HAVE LABELLED IT AS SOAP AND NON-EDIBLE!! It was labelled Brown Sugar/Fig, and anyone would have thought it was a food product.

YOU COULD BE SUED for this inconsideration. Don't you realize this product crossed state lines and was sent through the mail - as such it is subect to FDA regulations.

If I were you, I'd hire a good lawyer and learn what you are doing is WRONG!

Ignorance of the law is NO DEFENSE."

[MissMary]

Sounds like someone starting trouble more or less.

Granted, soap is by law supposed to be on there, but mistakes happen. I certainly would never have thought it to be fudge (since when does fudge contain brown sugar and fig?).

Frankly, this person sounds like... well, I'll just say it, an ASS.

There are ways to inform someone about something. If they'd been nice, I might have offered to send something else to help the situation, but I'd reply -

"I am well aware of the state laws. If your son was not old enough to read, leaving items for his consumption, unattended is also dangerous and can be construed as child neglect. It was a minor oversight on our part, however, considering we sell no food products, a common person would not and has not yet commented that it looked nor smelled like a food product.

I suggest hiring a good representative for yourself as well, as leaving products unattended and unlabled (or else he opened it without your permission, in which case, you have not parented him in right from wrong) for a child small enough to consume could end up trouble for you as well."

[Scented]

Maybe send a picture of a sugared fig and ask her how deep her blonde roots run ...

Now on the nicer side, I'd apologize to them for the mishap, but include that she clearly ordered from a bath and body store and not a grocery store or exotic food market. You tend to freebies or samples with you stuff and apologize for trying to brighten their otherwise dim as hell life.

[Meridith]

I can remember a supplier (SnC) that always included candy in my orders for FO.

I think a nice little apology would suffice. Of course, I would be tempted to add a little bit of a smart remark or a witty smarta$$ come back too. Something along the lines that the child now was due a swear word since he/she ate soap. But that is me.

[thecandlespastore]

After I apologized she writes back:

Madam,

I do not mean to belabor this or give you any more headaches than you already have, BUT you are shipping these chemicals over state lines, and you are subject to regulations stipulated by the UNITED STATES FOOD and DRUG ADMINISTRATION.

Your homemade products are also subject to analysis by the UNITED STATE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE.

Do yourself a favor and get registered and initiate compliance before you find yourself facing lots of problems with the Interstate Commerce Commission, as well.

I do hope you have product liability insurance, no matter how benign your formulae are.

I'm not trying to harrass you, but these are things you should be aware of before you have real trouble.

****

She is assuming a lot, isn't she?! I know I should have paid attention the label as it was printing and made sure soap was on there. But who lets their kid eat a supposed piece of fudge that is not even wrapped like food? It is in a plastic bag with a piece of tape holding it closed. Fudge would have been securely wrapped, perhaps even in its own box. I would never give my child a piece of food out of the mail, unless it was from Charssi (which I do not share, I eat it in the closet where no one will ask for any.)

[Meridith]

If this is such an issue with her, why'd she order from you in the first place? Man that woman is a real bi**h! I would love to send MissMary's response to her but that would just piss her off more and entice her to actually file suit.

[Meridith]

You know what, I think I'd be tempted to invite her to file a lawsuit. She'd have to prove your product harmed her son. I ate plenty of soap in my childhood due to my mouth and I lived to tell. Just the fact he took a bite and it tasted horrible would not be enough for her to prevail. She'd have to produce medical records and doctor bills.

[thecandlespastore]

I thought the same thing Meridith. But some people have a lot of time on their hands to actually try to pursue such things, even if its a waste of their time. I on the other hand do not. I just made new labeling for all the samples so that the word soap is in bold letters.

[MissMary]

I'd now write back that SHE is the one who is incorrect.

Point out to her that since it is NOT a food product, and obviously so, it's NOT regulated by the FDA. Only "fake soap" that is a detergent product and not handcrafted soap is regulated by the FDA and suggest to her that she get some knowledge on true soap and what she sees in the store.

Point out again that since it's NOT food and you are NOT labeling it as organic, she is idiotically implying regulations from the USDA, which again does NOT deal with handcrafted soap.

Then invite her to complain to the ICC, because it deals with ROADS AND RAILWAYS. There are NO regulations in place when a product crosses state lines that pertain to this situation.

Then invite her yet again to do MORE googling and this time use the correct WORDS and REGULATORY COMMISSIONS to actually at least look like she knows what's she's talking about.

It won't matter if she tries to sue you, sending her a letter with the child stuff I mentioned, CAN be brought up in court. So if she sues, then not only can she be countersued for THREATS (because those emails are officially threats now), but ALSO be under investigation with the local DFACS. P.S. And I'd damn well point out that if she should attempt to sue, these emails will be saved for trial use as threats against the business.

[Jeana]

I have to agree with Mary to that label or no label the child may not have been able to read anyway(no age is mentioned). And it is her responsiblity to keep things out of her son's mouth.

Be careful with appologizing to this women, it may be looked at like an admission of guilt. It would be best to not do anymore communicating with her without a lawyer because you may unknowingly open doors for her to use in court .

She would have to prove it was even your soap her kid ate even if he did get sick from it, and like Merrideth said, she would have to provide proof of damages from your product.

[Meg_10]

I would do what Miss Mary said, Write to her and I agree don't apologize like Jeana said, and definately put in that you'll send this to your lawyer and if this continues to be harrassment and what not, your lawyer will take care of it. This lady should of known better and watch her child little more. She ordered from you knowing it's BB products strictly. I think she just have nothing better to do but complain, maybe hoping to get her $$ back or something, there's always an agenda.

HTH

Meg

[MissMary]

One more thing: I'd also point out that that particular soap (assuming it was handmade with lye and the whole bit) does NOT contain chemicals. After the process, the chemicals have reacted with the salts and gone and all that's left is what happened during the reaction is oils and butters, not the chemical itself.

[TheQueen]

After I apologized she writes back:

Madam,

I do not mean to belabor this or give you any more headaches than you already have, BUT you are shipping these chemicals over state lines, and you are subject to regulations stipulated by the UNITED STATES FOOD and DRUG ADMINISTRATION.

Your homemade products are also subject to analysis by the UNITED STATE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE.

Do yourself a favor and get registered and initiate compliance before you find yourself facing lots of problems with the Interstate Commerce Commission, as well.

I do hope you have product liability insurance, no matter how benign your formulae are.

I'm not trying to harrass you, but these are things you should be aware of before you have real trouble.

****

She is assuming a lot, isn't she?! I know I should have paid attention the label as it was printing and made sure soap was on there. But who lets their kid eat a supposed piece of fudge that is not even wrapped like food? It is in a plastic bag with a piece of tape holding it closed. Fudge would have been securely wrapped, perhaps even in its own box. I would never give my child a piece of food out of the mail, unless it was from Charssi (which I do not share, I eat it in the closet where no one will ask for any.)

I think she clearly doesn't know what in the crap she's talking about. She's in the wrong and trying to assign blame anywhere but on herself for not monitoring her child close enough.

Thank you MissMary for saying this in a much more coherent manner!

[cindym]

As I understand, this is very upsetting for you. At this point I would let it go , do not email her or respond to anything unless it is from a lawyer. Yes she is assuming alot. And as scented said, sounds like she does have a pretty boring life.

Unless of course you would like to send her child a lollipop, make sure you label it as such. Sorry could not resist. Sounds like she is all talk.

Keep us posted.

[Camay]

One more thing: I'd also point out that that particular soap (assuming it was handmade with lye and the whole bit) does NOT contain chemicals. After the process, the chemicals have reacted with the salts and gone and all that's left is what happened during the reaction is oils and butters, not the chemical itself.

This is kind of off topic, but I need to correct the above statement.

Homemade soap, or any soap, certainly does contain chemicals. The fatty acids that made up the oil and butters (all chemicals) reacted with the sodium hydroxide (another chemical) and made fatty acid salts and glycerol (more chemicals).

Personally, I would cease all communication with this woman. She sounds like a nut job.

[MissMary]

While technically everything can be broken into chemicals, from what I researched, the other chemicals are dispersed and gone by the time cure stage is over. While true that glycerol is a chemical unto itself, the grade of gycerol it's not considered as such (and also the reason we don't need to list it as an ingredient) once the soap is fully complete. I have partly researched whether humectants need to be included in the first place for partly made soaps and such, but I can't give any info on that.

I'll have to delve in deeper to understand for sure, since this is a topic I'd like to know a definite about, since you've brought this to my attention.

[thecandlespastore]

Thanks a lot for the info. I think she just went on a Google hunt to find whatever sounded important, because the first email sounds so silly, and then the second email is all legalese. 50% of me wants to write her back with all that info Mary, and yet 50% says let it go. I do not like going back and forth with people. If I write her back she will be really pissed because then she will think I am calling her a bad mother (which who knows, maybe she is.) I am definitely never selling to her again, what's to stop her from letting her child drink the perfume next time thinking its Coca Cola?

I went through all my labels today and added "not edible" to each and every one. You are right, we do have to assume everyone is stupid these days!

[southern.scents]

Thanks a lot for the info. I think she just went on a Google hunt to find whatever sounded important, because the first email sounds so silly, and then the second email is all legalese. 50% of me wants to write her back with all that info Mary, and yet 50% says let it go. I do not like going back and forth with people. If I write her back she will be really pissed because then she will think I am calling her a bad mother (which who knows, maybe she is.) I am definitely never selling to her again, what's to stop her from letting her child drink the perfume next time thinking its Coca Cola?

I went through all my labels today and added "not edible" to each and every one. You are right, we do have to assume everyone is stupid these days!

I agree, it was stupid on her part and forgetful on your own but remember that customer service is the most important product you carry in your store and that it comes free with every purchase. Be very kind, understanding, and if I was in your shoes, I would send an apologetic card and a small gift.

[MissMary]

And then she gets what she wants... free stuff. The motive is unknown - but I certainly can't see going on and on about it for "informative" purposes on the other woman's behalf.

It's probably best overall not to say anything, now that I do think about it. Not for a legal standpoint, because you've got a stronger case (child aside), but because it's not worth fretting over. You've made your apology. She sucks, and given her attitude and ignorance, she's probably trying to fenagle more products or money from you.

[Camay]

While technically everything can be broken into chemicals, from what I researched, the other chemicals are dispersed and gone by the time cure stage is over. While true that glycerol is a chemical unto itself, the grade of gycerol it's not considered as such (and also the reason we don't need to list it as an ingredient) once the soap is fully complete. I have partly researched whether humectants need to be included in the first place for partly made soaps and such, but I can't give any info on that.

I'll have to delve in deeper to understand for sure, since this is a topic I'd like to know a definite about, since you've brought this to my attention.

What does the bolded statement mean? Dispersed? No. The fatty acid salts are not gone by the end of cure. They are what make up soap. Hopefully all of the lye has reacted, if that is what you mean. Plus all of the chemicals that make up the EO or FO are there, and the coloring, if any.

I am not arguing anything about labeling. I don't know all the rules for that. Just from a scientific stand point, you cannot say to a customer, or put on a label of soap that this contains "contains no chemicals." It simply isn't true.

There is a really good "cheistry of soap" webpage out there, but I can't find it right now in my bookmarks. I'll have to look again this afternoon.

[Meridith]

I agree, it was stupid on her part and forgetful on your own but remember that customer service is the most important product you carry in your store and that it comes free with every purchase. Be very kind, understanding, and if I was in your shoes, I would send an apologetic card and a small gift.

Screw that! Now way in hell would I send her a small gift or apology card. She already got an apology and a sincere one at that. That woman was not at all gracious in her e-mails to thecandlespastore and her tone was not of one that said she was just trying to give her a "heads up" a gentle reminder or anything like that. True customer service is important, but there are some customers I will gladly do without. And if it was me, I'd start with this one.

[thesoapbox]

I think Miss Mary gave a perfect response and I would certainly send it. Also letting the person know that all email communication will henceforth cease and any further communication will be given to the lawyer.

This person is bored, unhappy and has nothing else better to do in life.

Angi

[thecandlespastore]

Here is my letter I wrote with MissMary's and thesoapbox's suggestions, did not send it yet. I just feel like not replying to all her wrong information is going to empower her.

*

Thank you for the information but I would like to now share some information with you as well, since I have been doing this for a very long time. When I see that someone is giving out the wrong information, I like to lend a helping hand and educate them a little:

1. Since my soap was not a food product, and obviously so, it's not regulated by the FDA. Only "fake soap" that is a detergent product and not handcrafted soap is regulated by the FDA. There is a big difference between handmade soap (from scratch) and what you see on the shelves at the grocery store.

2. Since my soap is not food and I did not label it as organic, USDA regulations do not apply, since they do not deal with handcrafted soap.

3. The soap that you received as a free sample does NOT contain any harmful chemicals that would harm a person. After the process, the main components that I use to make my soap has gone through what is known as saponification, leaving glycerin and a sodium salt that we call soap So no, I have not broken any laws there either.

4. Perhaps the ICC will give you a better understanding, they deal with Roads and Railways. There are no regulations in place when a product crosses state lines that pertain to this situation.

I can understand you being upset about your child (or teen, not even sure how old your child is) biting into a bar of soap, never knew it looked good enough to be misconstrued as fudge. But label or no label, it is not my fault that he/she bit into it. It is your responsibility as a parent to make sure your child does not put things in his or her mouth that do not belong there. And if you gave your child the piece of soap that you assumed was fudge sent from a total stranger on the internet, then that is not my fault either. I personally would never give my child anything to eat from the mail, even if I knew the person very well. You never know what can happen to food during transit, one of the reasons I only sell bath and body products.

Please do not assign blame on anyone but yourself for not monitoring your child close enough and not fully inspecting what you allow the child to consume. I find your emails threatening and presumptuous, and they could warrant an investigation with the local DFACS. All email communication will henceforth cease and any further communication will be given to my lawyer if this issue persists. I appreciate your purchase, I am sorry my perfume did not satisfy your olfactory desires, and I bid you a good day.

[thecandlespastore]

I agree, it was stupid on her part and forgetful on your own but remember that customer service is the most important product you carry in your store and that it comes free with every purchase. Be very kind, understanding, and if I was in your shoes, I would send an apologetic card and a small gift.

She already got a thank you card and a free gift and look what happened. I never want to deal with her again. Who knows, her child might eat the card and the small gift:tongue2: and it will be my fault all over again.

[Meridith]

Here is my letter I wrote with MissMary's and thesoapbox's suggestions, did not send it yet. I just feel like not replying to all her wrong information is going to empower her.

*

Thank you for the information but I would like to now share some information with you as well, since I have been doing this for a very long time. When I see that someone is giving out the wrong information, I like to lend a helping hand and educate them a little:

1. Since my soap was not a food product, and obviously so, it's not regulated by the FDA. Only "fake soap" that is a detergent product and not handcrafted soap is regulated by the FDA. There is a big difference between handmade soap (from scratch) and what you see on the shelves at the grocery store.

2. Since my soap is not food and I did not label it as organic, USDA regulations do not apply, since they do not deal with handcrafted soap.

3. The soap that you received as a free sample does NOT contain any harmful chemicals that would harm a person. After the process, the main components that I use to make my soap has gone through what is known as saponification, leaving glycerin and a sodium salt that we call soap So no, I have not broken any laws there either.

4. Perhaps the ICC will give you a better understanding, they deal with Roads and Railways. There are no regulations in place when a product crosses state lines that pertain to this situation.

I can understand you being upset about your child (or teen, not even sure how old your child is) biting into a bar of soap, never knew it looked good enough to be misconstrued as fudge. But label or no label, it is not my fault that he/she bit into it. It is your responsibility as a parent to make sure your child does not put things in his or her mouth that do not belong there. And if you gave your child the piece of soap that you assumed was fudge sent from a total stranger on the internet, then that is not my fault either. I personally would never give my child anything to eat from the mail, even if I knew the person very well. You never know what can happen to food during transit, one of the reasons I only sell bath and body products.

Please do not assign blame on anyone but yourself for not monitoring your child close enough and not fully inspecting what you allow the child to consume. I find your emails threatening and presumptuous, and they could warrant an investigation with the local DFACS. All email communication will henceforth cease and any further communication will be given to my lawyer if this issue persists. I appreciate your purchase, I am sorry my perfume did not satisfy your olfactory desires, and I bid you a good day.

That is a great letter. I'd send it.