Frosty and soft, not so pretty!

[smellylittlemonkeys]

So I poured two candles today and was hoping to see some pretty tops when I opened the oven, WRONG!!

They look awful. The tops are all a tad mushy and frosted and down the sides. I had high hopes for these as I used 1/2 tablespoon pp of coconut oil as well as 1 tablespoon pp of USA for the first time.

I am using C3 Nature Wax, used FO Sweet Pea from LS and FO Apple & Clover from JBN w/ liquid dye from LS. Jars were washed and dried and warmed in oven. After poured they were cooled in the warm oven.

I am not sure why they came out like that. I thought the coconut and USA were suppose to help with tops and frosting. I had already melted my wax and then it had hardened again, I re-melted it again and then added the USA as I did not have it before when I first melted the wax. I don't think this caused any problems though because I did not use all of the wax and once it went back solid in the presto it was nice and smooth and firm, unlike what my candles turned out to be.

I am attaching a link to pictues of what my results. Any and all suggestions would be appreciated!

http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc198/ambernricketts1980/candle/?albumview=grid

[Trappeur]

Hello,

I feel your pain as I have gone through all the trials and tribulations as what you are going through now....I use c-3 also and from my experience what I have learned as far as frosting goes is that there isn't much you can do for this occurance as it is just one of the characteristics of this wax...You name it, I've tried it and I have just learned to accept the frosting should it occur...Some people it just doesn't bother them...With me, it does....That is why I have now resorted to going all natural and the frosting virtually all becomes extinct...I may have a few wet spots here and there but I've learned to accept that and actually most everyone doesn't even notice it should it happen....As far as what your candles look like on the tops I used to have that too. Now I don't...What is your procedure when you make your candles?

This is how I do mine and they now come out just about perfect everytime depending on the temperature in my house....

I melt to 185 and immediately add my uv stabelizer and fragrance oil and stir.......Then let it cool down a bit....

I pour at 175.....

I usually do have to do a cap off (2'nd pour)...depending on the temperature as I said in my house as I might have a slight crack or indentation......

I slightly warm my jars too.....but I don't put them in the oven to cure......as when I did, they came out just like yours.....

I love the c-3 and have just accepted the fact there there really is no perfect 1 pour wax with no frosting or wet spot issues....

Hope this clears your mind a bit...

Trappeur

[smellylittlemonkeys]

....As far as what your candles look like on the tops I used to have that too. Now I don't...What is your procedure when you make your candles?

This is how I do mine and they now come out just about perfect everytime depending on the temperature in my house....

I melt to 185 and immediately add my uv stabelizer and fragrance oil and stir.......Then let it cool down a bit....

I pour at 175.....

I usually do have to do a cap off (2'nd pour)...depending on the temperature as I said in my house as I might have a slight crack or indentation......

I slightly warm my jars too.....but I don't put them in the oven to cure......as when I did, they came out just like yours.....

I love the c-3 and have just accepted the fact there there really is no perfect 1 pour wax with no frosting or wet spot issues....

Hope this clears your mind a bit...

Trappeur

As I said in my first post I melted the wax before with the UV in it then returned to solid form as I was getting some USA from JBN so I wanted to wait on pouring. I re-melted, added the USA and then returned to a solid as I did not have time to pour that day, kids were being a booger. Now yesterday when I melted it I did not get all the way up to 185, it was closer to 175.

On my second candle that I poured without the USA and coconut oil, it was a Cotton Candy. I heated to 185, added FO and dye around 160 and then poured around 150. It was cooled on a wire wrack outside the oven. It had a pretty nice top, except for the circular (sp?) on the top. It was not mushy or frosty at all.

The temp in the house usually is about 74-75. Is that too cool??

I don't really want to have to do a second pour, that is why I choose to start working with the C3 because of its one pour claim.

I wonder if the oven is too warm when I put them in there to cool??

[elfcat]

I have never had a problem with frosting with the C3. Wetspots and cracking on the tops, yes, but no frosting. For me it was a one pour because I just used a heat gun to smooth my tops!

I never preheat my jars and I only heated to about 170, pouring at 150. I did use CO but no USA. How did your candles come out before adding USA and CO to your formula?

You know, no matter what wax I've used it always looks better in the presto pot when it hardens than in the jars. Very intriguing and frustrating.

[smellylittlemonkeys]

I have never had a problem with frosting with the C3. Wetspots and cracking on the tops, yes, but no frosting. For me it was a one pour because I just used a heat gun to smooth my tops!

I never preheat my jars and I only heated to about 170, pouring at 150. I did use CO but no USA. How did your candles come out before adding USA and CO to your formula?

You know, no matter what wax I've used it always looks better in the presto pot when it hardens than in the jars. Very intriguing and frustrating.

Before adding the CO and USA, there was not the mushy looking stuff on the tops or near as much frosting on the sides. But I did have the circle crack on them. Its not like I have made a lot as I am still very new. I did however make some Margarita candles and they were the first ones I cooled in the oven, had some CO in it but no USA, and they had a worse looking top then the ones cooled on a wire wrack on top of the oven. Sooo maybe my problem is within the cooling in the warm oven?

I was trying the oven because I am a hot natured person and when I get hot, well I get witchy . After I poured I wanted to turn the AC down and cool off. I think my next try I will heat the jars with the heat gun, that way the oven is not warm, and will cool in the oven to protect from drafts and see what I get.

If only the tops could look like what it does in the presto we would be set! Im trying to convince DH to solve this problem he needs to buy me a candle cabin (red barn storage building from Lowe's). That way I can get all my stuff out of the house, can make the temp right out there and can leave them on a table without worry that 3 yr old or 2 yr old fingers won't get in trouble. It's not working though

[Stella1952]

Here's my observations, thoughts, questions and suggestions.

1) When you say "warm" oven, what TEMPERATURE are we talking about there? Use a thermometer. One person's "warm" may be too hot or too cool and quite different from another person's "warm." There is no "magic" about putting candles in an oven. It CAN be used to keep the air temperature more even as the candles cool and it can be used to "salvage" a batch of candles whose tops sucked, but it isn't a panacea in and of itself. If you don't use a thermometer, you have NO IDEA of what's going on in there!

2) I have found that excessive heat is the number one factor with frosting, cauliflowering and other undesirable changes in the crystalline structure of C3, both in heating, pouring and storage.

3) Nothing will totally eliminate all frosting problems forever in every FO and every color under all storage conditions. Soy wax is polymorphic and that is a given. If you want it to behave, you have to do what it likes and avoid what it doesn't. Knowing WHEN to use certain techniques is important, not to employ all of them at once!

4) Tempering does not simply mean turning wax on and off, heating it up to a high temp, letting it cool off, heating it up to a high temp again, etc. That ain't gonna get you where you want to go. It involves stirring and paying attention to the thermometer. Things have to happen at certain temps to achieve the goal of reducing the number of undesirable crystals and promoting the growth of desirable ones. While this may sound complicated, it is NOT. It requires understanding what you are doing and what you are trying to achieve and keeping an eye on things to insure good results.

5) While FOs should be added at temps above 150° and stirred WELL to fully incorporate into the wax, there is no reason to heat the wax much higher than 165-175° for any length of time.

6) Add ALL your ingredients to the wax flakes initially (except FO & dye). This will insure the best incorporation into the wax. Actually, I have found that adding dye sooner rather than later produces the best results, but many people make such small batches, it is difficult to do so.

7) Realize that it's much easier to get good, reliable results with large batches of wax colored and fragranced the same than it is with small batches. Changes happen slower and are better tolerated by a larger volume of a substance than a small volume. People who are making big batches of wax have fewer problems than those who are making a little bitty batch! This is WHY your candles don't look the same as when a larger volume of wax cools in the Presto. The environment INSIDE the Presto is also more static and cooling more slowly without drafts than on the countertop in small, individual containers, some clustered together (warmer areas) and some with their sides exposed to the air (cooler area). "Even cooling" means all the way around each candle.

8) You will not eliminate any issues by employing every technique and additive you've ever read about all at once! You may even cause problems you didn't have initially! For example - I do not use CO and USA together. I use one or the other. I found I had overall better results with USA than I did with CO because it covers a wider variety of issues than does CO.

9) When you are ready to tear your hair, go back to the basics and record EVERYTHING you do, at what temp you did it, how long you did it, etc. Don't jump around and skip steps. Many folks just jump in without ever having tested their wax fully. Like a float in stormy seas, you'll get bobbed all over the place by this person's advice or that person's observations if you don't have an anchor of your own. Don't simply listen to my or anyone else's experiences: LEARN via your OWN.

10) If you do not have the patience to logically troubleshoot issues, leave out the dye, reduce the amount of FO used and plan on a second pour. Now that isn't acceptable to me, but it makes others quite content, so it all depends upon what YOU are willing to do and your goals for your candles. HTH

[BeagleBaby]

Stella 1952 has some very good reasoning. Without her I would have not heard of USA or coconut oil, using it in C3.

Thanks again stella my candles have been coming out great.

[Stella1952]

Thanks again stella my candles have been coming out great.

No thanks needed, BB. YOU are doing SOMETHING right and all praises belong to you! Making candles is like any other skill - it requires patience, knowledge, attention and practice. The more you make candles, the more things will begin to even out and go your way.

You're developing a "knack" for this candlemaking thing!

Good goin'!

[smellylittlemonkeys]

Here's my observations, thoughts, questions and suggestions.

1) When you say "warm" oven, what TEMPERATURE are we talking about there? Use a thermometer. One person's "warm" may be too hot or too cool and quite different from another person's "warm." There is no "magic" about putting candles in an oven. It CAN be used to keep the air temperature more even as the candles cool and it can be used to "salvage" a batch of candles whose tops sucked, but it isn't a panacea in and of itself. If you don't use a thermometer, you have NO IDEA of what's going on in there!

2) I have found that excessive heat is the number one factor with frosting, cauliflowering and other undesirable changes in the crystalline structure of C3, both in heating, pouring and storage.

3) Nothing will totally eliminate all frosting problems forever in every FO and every color under all storage conditions. Soy wax is polymorphic and that is a given. If you want it to behave, you have to do what it likes and avoid what it doesn't. Knowing WHEN to use certain techniques is important, not to employ all of them at once!

4) Tempering does not simply mean turning wax on and off, heating it up to a high temp, letting it cool off, heating it up to a high temp again, etc. That ain't gonna get you where you want to go. It involves stirring and paying attention to the thermometer. Things have to happen at certain temps to achieve the goal of reducing the number of undesirable crystals and promoting the growth of desirable ones. While this may sound complicated, it is NOT. It requires understanding what you are doing and what you are trying to achieve and keeping an eye on things to insure good results.

5) While FOs should be added at temps above 150° and stirred WELL to fully incorporate into the wax, there is no reason to heat the wax much higher than 165-175° for any length of time.

6) Add ALL your ingredients to the wax flakes initially (except FO & dye). This will insure the best incorporation into the wax. Actually, I have found that adding dye sooner rather than later produces the best results, but many people make such small batches, it is difficult to do so.

7) Realize that it's much easier to get good, reliable results with large batches of wax colored and fragranced the same than it is with small batches. Changes happen slower and are better tolerated by a larger volume of a substance than a small volume. People who are making big batches of wax have fewer problems than those who are making a little bitty batch! This is WHY your candles don't look the same as when a larger volume of wax cools in the Presto. The environment INSIDE the Presto is also more static and cooling more slowly without drafts than on the countertop in small, individual containers, some clustered together (warmer areas) and some with their sides exposed to the air (cooler area). "Even cooling" means all the way around each candle.

8) You will not eliminate any issues by employing every technique and additive you've ever read about all at once! You may even cause problems you didn't have initially! For example - I do not use CO and USA together. I use one or the other. I found I had overall better results with USA than I did with CO because it covers a wider variety of issues than does CO.

9) When you are ready to tear your hair, go back to the basics and record EVERYTHING you do, at what temp you did it, how long you did it, etc. Don't jump around and skip steps. Many folks just jump in without ever having tested their wax fully. Like a float in stormy seas, you'll get bobbed all over the place by this person's advice or that person's observations if you don't have an anchor of your own. Don't simply listen to my or anyone else's experiences: LEARN via your OWN.

10) If you do not have the patience to logically troubleshoot issues, leave out the dye, reduce the amount of FO used and plan on a second pour. Now that isn't acceptable to me, but it makes others quite content, so it all depends upon what YOU are willing to do and your goals for your candles. HTH

Stella,

Thanks for taking the time to help me out with your thoughts and such.

1.) About the temp of the oven, I did not use a thermometer. What kind of thermometer would you use in an oven? What I did was heat up the oven to the lowest setting, 175, put in the jars and warmed them. When I took the jars out I turned off the oven. I'm guessing that it stayed at least 150 by the time I put the candles in after they were poured. Possibly this is too hot, not sure, as I said I am still trying to figure it all out.

2.) I should be in for a battle if excessive heat is a problem since I am in southeast Texas, it is always hot here!

3.) You are right, I guess I thought "the more the better" and was trying to use both additives.

4.) I would really like to learn more about this. I have done a search about it but apparently did not get it. Do you have a good starting point for this so I can know what to look for at the certain temps? I am going to PM you about this, ok?

5.) I was doing 185 as a starting point because that is what I read on the C3 but will keep this in mind.

6.) I am thinking this could have been an issue since I added the USA after I melted the wax flakes. At first I did not think it would be a big deal but, once again, learning.

7.) That makes perfect sense, thank you for explaining it that way.

8.) I am def. agreeing on this one! My first candle I poured looked better, with just the circle crack on top then what these last two did with all the additives.

9.) I have been writing down what I am doing with each pour. I actually had a really good spread sheet going but the computer gods ate it when my hard drive crashed! I am buying a jump drive specifically for my candles so if my PC takes a dump on me I will still have my info.

10.) I know I want to keep the dye, and don't want to have to do a second pour, afterall that is why I picked the C3 to start testing. I've got patience, I'm a stay at home mom to a 3 year old girl and a 3 year old boy. Have to have patience for that!

Thanks Stella!

[smellylittlemonkeys]

Stella 1952 has some very good reasoning. Without her I would have not heard of USA or coconut oil, using it in C3.

Thanks again stella my candles have been coming out great.

I agree Beagle and hope to learn from her as well as all the other great people on here.

[Stella1952]

What kind of thermometer would you use in an oven?

Ummmm... an oven thermometer. Not trying to be a wiseacre... they don't cost much (a few bucks maybe?) and usually hang on the rack or set on it... You can find 'em at WalMart or the grocery store in the kitchen gadgets area. They are a great thing to have to ensure your oven's dial isn't lying to you. Be sure to double check it with an accurate thermometer 'cause these are pretty cheap and probably there are some duds in any given batch of 'em on the shelf. If your oven temp was only 150-175°, that shouldn't have been a problem...

I'm in SE LA, so I feel ya on the heat and humidity. Many other great chandlers hail from Texas and they manage to make great candles, so I have no doubt that you will learn how to make things work here in the Hades region, too!

I tried to use a notebook when I started with candles, but I kept misplacing it. Someone here a while back said that they use index cards for notes, so I stole that idea before the pixels even got clear on the monitor! Whomever it was, I owe you my sanity.

It helps to download the NatureWax C3 Handling Sheet from their site. Many folks don't because before you can download it, you have to fill in personal information so a NatureWax rep can contact you.:rolleyes2 I found it to be helpful to know what the manufacturer recommends, then start tweaking the temps, etc. from there. They recommend a wide temp range, which at first seemed screwy to me, but I am beginning to understand why...

If you can manage to make candles with two 3 year old house monkeys running around, you have my complete respect! It's all I can do to keep my little dog from becoming a dipped critter!

The most important thing is to have fun! Making nice candles with C3 really isn't as difficult as it sounds - it just takes practice. Sounds like you are doing great!

Try remelting your fuglies and allow them to reharden and see if they don't improve. Sometimes, it's like magic. No need to scoop out the wax - just put the containers back in the oven after you get your new oven thermometer. Oh yeah - best to not clip the wicks if you're gonna remelt...

[JennB]

Sorry I don't know much about your wax, BUT I did want to comment on your wick placement.

I don't know if you've tested these yet, but in t he photos the wicks look a little close to the sides of the jar to me. As long as the glass isn't getting too hot, even on powerburns and even by the time you're burning at the bottom of the jar, it's probably fine. My rule of thumb is that if I can't physically hold onto the jar after it's been burning a few hours then it's too hot.

Personally when I double wick I place the wicktabs with about a 1/4-1/2" space between them depending on size of jar.

HTH!

[smellylittlemonkeys]

Ummmm... an oven thermometer. Not trying to be a wiseacre... they don't cost much (a few bucks maybe?) and usually hang on the rack or set on it... You can find 'em at WalMart or the grocery store in the kitchen gadgets area.

I'm in SE LA, so I feel ya on the heat and humidity. Many other great chandlers hail from Texas and they manage to make great candles, so I have no doubt that you will learn how to make things work here in the Hades region, too!

I tried to use a notebook when I started with candles, but I kept misplacing it. Someone here a while back said that they use index cards for notes, so I stole that idea before the pixels even got clear on the monitor!

It helps to download the NatureWax C3 Handling Sheet from their site. Many folks don't because before you can download it, you have to fill in personal information so a NatureWax rep can contact you.:rolleyes2

If you can manage to make candles with two 3 year old house monkeys running around, you have my complete respect! It's all I can do to keep my little dog from becoming a dipped critter!

On the thermometer, I will have to look for one. Cooking is not my favorite past time so I don't spend much time in that aisle. That is why I asked what kind, thanks for letting me know there is such a thing.

The heat, oh the heat. Somedays it is so miserable. We don't really have enough of a winter to warrant buying winter clothes.

You said you would misplace the notebook so you use index cards, I would misplace those! I am a computer/internet person so I am thinking I might have better luck with the jump drive, we shall see.

I will have to get in touch with them to get the handling sheet. I did not realize there was one.

Funny about your little dog being a dipped critter! These kids keep me hopping but I love them bunches. I am sure my brain will be SO tired come this Fall when school for me starts back up from summer break. So I stay at home with two kids, a household, trying to figure out candle making, and am in school full time, can I add anything else??

Sorry I don't know much about your wax, BUT I did want to comment on your wick placement.

I don't know if you've tested these yet, but in t he photos the wicks look a little close to the sides of the jar to me. As long as the glass isn't getting too hot, even on powerburns and even by the time you're burning at the bottom of the jar, it's probably fine. My rule of thumb is that if I can't physically hold onto the jar after it's been burning a few hours then it's too hot.

Personally when I double wick I place the wicktabs with about a 1/4-1/2" space between them depending on size of jar.

HTH!

I've tested burned a couple of candles with this wick placement. To me it was not too hot, but I think I have a higher heat tolerance than some. For these I was using 2 ECO 6's. Now if I move them in closer would I have to wick up to get a full melt pool? I tried 2 ECO 10's with the same placement but they seemed to burn too fast, no tunneling though, just the depth of the melt pool got pretty deep fast. So would you suggest going with an ECO 8?

[Stella1952]

So I stay at home with two kids, a household, trying to figure out candle making, and am in school full time, can I add anything else??

WHAT? Not building houses for Habitat for Humanity, volunteering at the hospital, visiting the old folks home with your kids, delivering Meals On Wheels to old folks, keeping a half acre vegetable garden and mini-orchard, dog-walking volunteer for the humane society, making bread and putting up veggies and preserves for winter and learning the fine art of water color?:laugh2::laugh2:

I'm just funnin' ya, SLM!! You have PLENTY on your plate, not that any or all of those things aren't worthwhile, but IMHO, if you can keep up with two 3 year olds, a household and school, and not run screamin' nekkid down the street, you must be doing SOMETHING right!!! I kinda liked what Roseanne Barr had to say about raising kids and housekeeping... if her husband comes home from work and dem kids are still alive, she did her part... and the house will be clean when she gets a riding vacuum cleaner with a wet bar.:laugh2::laugh2:

PS Here's a link to a photo of the oven thermometer I have except the one in the picture is clean and shiny!

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/Home/Technology/Tools-Machines-Instruments/Weights-and-Measures/Heat-Measurement/Cooking-Thermometers/Cooking-Thermometers-6.html