pillars and flame height

[Lightning Bug]

Back playing with pillars and pulling my hair out. Does anything make them burn out instead of down? I'm using plain 140 melt paraffin. I've added stearic, vybar etc. I wick it and no matter what kind of wick (flat ply, square braid, LX, cotton, etc. I seem to get tall flames. Even if it is burning without flicker, soot etc. I don't think going down in size will work as it then never gets near the edge and just tunnels leaving a big shell. So it must come down to additives. More or less of something? Or can someone recommend a pre-blended pillar wax? TIA. Beth

Just had another thought...could it be the wick priming wax? I've just been using the wax I pour with. Maybe it should be just wax and no additives?

[grama]

Don't know what your problem could be. I use 4625 with good results. I don't prime my wicks either.

[SatinDucky]

How big is the too big flame?

Most of the time if I find the wick that makes the melt pool right, the flame is right. Frequently I don't trim the wick before relighting (yeah, yeah, shame on me... but I KNOW many customers wont either so I wanna know what'll happen) If the wick is trimmer properly, the flame is just right. Untrimmed it gets a little big, not torch like, but just a bit larger. As long as it doesn't cause a blow out or start smoking, it's fine with me

Priming wax shouldn't matter much. I do unprimed occasionally. Mostly it's primed in my pillar wax. I've tried in straight paraffin and high temp wax as well. Saw no difference in burn.

[Lightning Bug]

It seems like maybe 2" or so. It just looked big and my dh mentioned it also...and he doesn't pay much attention unless I'm in the middle of a disaster! This was on the first burn using a 27 flat ply, and it started out fine and then just got taller and taller. 3" diameter. The shell had 1/2" left on one side and 1/4" on the other after about 4 hours. Pulled it out and just relit a #2 square braid that I had trimmed to 1/4" and it was flickering, so I just cut it maybe 1/8" and seems fine right this minute. The crater (what would you call the burned down center? lol) is about 1 1/4" deep. Maybe I just do need to go down in wick sizes. Used 3 Tbsp. stearic and 1/2 tsp vybar and 4.4% FO. Pillars are still new to me and I haven't really burned many purchased ones either so maybe I just need to wick down and maybe the sides would catch up? If this doesn't work, I guess I'll try the 24 flat ply. Hadn't primed any of that size yet, so just used what I had already done. Love pouring them...hopefully someday wicking will be easier. Thanks. Beth

[topofmurrayhill]

A lot of things affect whether 3 inch pillars burn more downwards with a taller flame or outwards with a smaller flame.

Some things that make them burn out wider are lower MP wax, more fragrance oil, and more stearic acid. Vybar tends to give you more of the downward burn. The priming wax doesn't matter, but different wick types can also tip the balance more one way or the other.

3 inch pillars can be more complicated to design than people suspect. Sometimes it takes a lot of testing to make it all come together just right.

[Lightning Bug]

Thanks Top. I had thrown away all my first ones from several months ago and started fresh hoping to see an improvement right away. Guess the best thing to do is keep trying the wicks...if not happy, change just one item at a time such as drop the vybar, less FO, add/sub stearic etc. When I get one I'm happy with, start with a different FO and do the same thing. I may just order wax with a bit lower melt point. Your information is alway helpful to me. Thanks. Beth

[SatinDucky]

I wouldn't go any lower on the mp of the wax. Or if you do, just very slightly. I've had more trouble with the lower mp than higher. Mostly the problem is bulging and sides that tried to sag. I know additives would help that but it was just a pain. I use 4625, pillar blend. Much easier to me

[Jeana]

Beth,

I've noticed when I have a taller flame it melts downward, if the flame is smaller it melts more side to side. I think the taller flame consumes the wax faster, which creates the tunnel. So you could actually get closer to the sides by wicking down.

The wick sizes you are choosing sound very large for paraffin, they are even larger than I could use for my veg pillars.

It sounds like you are using a lot of stearic too. Do you have to use that much? When I was trying to firm up one of my waxes with stearic, if I got too much it would just burn straight down.

Keep really specific notes. I've been going back on notes from a couple years ago lately. Sometimes I hang on to a few samples of old formulations to remind myself what I liked or didn't like about them.

[Lightning Bug]

Thanks Jeana. I will also try going down in wick size. That may be true about the height and the spread of the melt pool. Need a new notebook and one just for pillars. Hard to find my last notes. Beth

[topofmurrayhill]

Smaller wicks will make a wider pool IF the melt point is low enough. Otherwise it will have the opposite effect.

The simplest way to get what you want would be to use a lower melt point wax and maybe more stearic acid (stearic lowers the melt point of paraffin).

The way the variables interact to determine the burn characteristics of a 3 inch pillar gets really complicated, but if you change the melt point and leave everything else the same, you'll see a very direct effect.

When the wax melts faster, it replaces what's being consumed and keeps the level of the melt pool higher, so the wick doesn't get longer and the flame doesn't get bigger.

140 MP wax plus additives would normally be too much for a 3 inch pillar (for instance you could never make a proper unfragranced 3 inch pillar with such high MP paraffin), but these days it's assumed that such candles will have high fragrance loads and that's why you need the higher melt point.

So another strategy you could try is to play by the rules and try 1 oz pp fragrance oil. That will help it melt faster.

[Lightning Bug]

"When the wax melts faster, it replaces what's being consumed and keeps the level of the melt pool higher, so the wick doesn't get longer and the flame doesn't get bigger.''

Top, I am almost computer illiterate, also...can't figure how to insert quote. But, this makes sense to me. As far as lower MP wax, I saw a wax with a 138 or 139 MP (1343) and then the only other waxes with a lower melts were the votive ones. Would the one or two degrees make a difference? I believe you when you say it gets really complicated. I tried more FO and they got sort of oily on the outside of the top when burning, so cut back. And, I thought stearic made the wax harder. So you give me lots to think about. Thanks. Beth

[topofmurrayhill]

You're right that there's kind of a gap. A lot of the melting points center around 140 and 130, with fewer products in between.

It's hard to say how much difference a few points might make. The melting points stated by the manufacturer are only approximations and they don't take into account other properties of paraffin that can influence how different types melt and generally behave.

I think something like 1343 could be worth a try for an application where you're using Vybar. It's probably a blended product and they may keep the MP pretty consistent around 138. BCN sells a similar paraffin called 1239 that averages even a little lower.

As for stearic, it does make paraffin harder, or at least keeps it from sagging as much when it's warm, but hardness and melt point are two different things. A paraffin/stearic mixture melts more easily than either of the individual ingredients. Maybe surprising, but not that unusual. Some metal alloys and other mixtures behave the same way. Even ice when you add salt to clear the driveway.

Good luck.