Glas Glow cooling & air pockets

[jennhalcyon]

A question for those of you who have been playing around with Glas Glow...I have made three containers so far. The first I cooled on a rack with no cover and had okay but not terrific crystallization. the second I slow cooled under a box without a rack and got beautiful crystals but two air pockets. The third I did the same (box) and poured slower and still have an air pocket.

Any suggestions on how I might be able to fix this? I would love to not have to poke relief holes and repour.

TIA,

Jenn

[Cindys]

Are you heating your containers? I hit my containers with the heat gun,and get them pretty hot before I pour. I then cool on a wire rack. I have had no air holes. Also I cooled with the containers covered and not covered. I did not see any difference.Good Luck

[jennhalcyon]

Cindy,

Thanks for your reply. I did preheat in the oven. Maybe it was that I didn't use the wire rack on the last two that caused the problem.

[KMommy]

I've had air pockets also and I've poured into heated containers, cooled in a box, in the oven...still air pockets.

[Stella1952]

Jenn, a lot of information has been posted on palm wax (in general) which you may have missed, regarding its tendency to form air pockets. Palm wax is a very hard wax that forms BIG visible crystals and goes from liquid to solid state very rapidly (no soft and squishy state between the liquid and solid states like soy or paraffin have). The only way to ensure no air pockets is to break the hardened surface underneath which air pockets are trapped and to "thump" the containers or molds to release air bubbles clinging to the interior of the candle and wick as it cools. Making holes AFTER the candle has cooled is of little use. How would one know where the air pockets are located and how would wax fill them?

I understand that many folks say that they have no air pockets with their Glass Glow products, but without a vertical cross-section of their candle to see if air pockets are present, there is no way of knowing, short of an X-ray or something! This IS the nature of palm wax and unless the molds are agitated and the air bubbles can rise to the surface and break, air pockets are going to occur.

Larger crystal patterns do seem to produce more air bubbles and pockets than do smaller crystal patterns or no crystals at all.

But instead of arguing one way or the other, let's see what a palm wax manufacturer recommends about pouring their products... they should know, right?

This page should be of some help to you and others with this problem. Skip down to product number 5401A (a container blend) and look across to where it says, "Needs constant stirring to remove air trap during crystallization. Shrinkage is minimum."

The "air trap" is the key here. It makes me think of air bubbles trapped underneath a layer of ice - unless the ice is broken, those bubbles cannot escape, so as the water continues to freeze, the bubbles will be trapped there, forming a void. Look at an ice cube.

Simply poking a few holes will not get it, as the holes "heal" rapidly and will not stay open to allow the air bubbles to continue to rise to the surface and break. A repour won't help much either unless the wax can flow all the way down into the relief holes in the candle before it becomes hard - something that isn't going to happen with a small, thin, deep hole (the wax rapidly solidifies before reaching even 1/2" down) . I assure you that if you saw two air pockets on the surface of your candle, if you cut it in half, you'd find more and there might be caverns under the visible pockets. Air pockets also often form around the wick because air bubbles and cooling crystals tend to cling to it.

When the wick hits an air pocket while burning, the melt pool will fill that void and lower its level. More of the wick is suddenly exposed, the flame increases and it burns too hot. The candle will not burn properly as a result. This is one thing that causes palm wax candles to sometimes produce intermittant unacceptable levels of soot inside containers (too big of a flame at times) and also contributes to "blowouts" on pillars, where the melt pool drains to fill a void, the flame becomes much larger, heats the interior of the candle up, particularly in the direction of the air pocket , which causes the melt pool to quickly become off-center and blow out at the thinnest spot if the condition is not quickly corrected by trimming and recentering the wick.

The best air-pocket prevention I have found is to disturb the surface of the cooling candle (to within about 1/4" of the edge of the container) surrounding the wick several times as it hardens and poke way down into the cooling candle to release air bubbles trapped by the hardening wax. This results in a rough looking top with a depression in the middle around the wick which is pretty easy to conceal with a repour that stays inside the edge of the wax adhering to the side of the container (so that you don't get a repour line). The same holds true with pillars and votives.

So long as palm wax goes so rapidly from a liquid to a solid state and has a heavy, large crystallization pattern, air bubbles produced and trapped within will be a problem that can only be resolved by breaking through the top and allowing the trapped air to dissipate and the liquid interior of the candle to fill the pockets.

As far as the crystallization patterns, palm wax "likes" to be poured hot and cooled very slowly to develop the best crystal patterns. If it is poured cool or cooled rapidly or unevenly, there may be no crystals at all! I cool my palm wax candles on a cookie rack set into an aluminum pan in an oven preheated to warm (no more than 200°) and turned off when I put the candles in, so they cool slooowly and evenly. Covering them with a box (especially a styrofoam box) will also work pretty well so long as they are spaced evenly apart on a raised rack so the warm air inside the box can circulate freely all around the candles and allow the tops to cool at the same rate as the bottoms. Otherwise, you will likely have a different pattern on the bottom than you see nearer the top because the bottom stays warmer longer. If the containers are placed too closely together, or on on a surface with no circulation underneath them, you may see a different pattern where they are closer to one another because of the warmer air trapped between the containers. HTH

[jennhalcyon]

Wow, Stella, that was quite a response! Thank you for all of that information! I am going to try cooling under the box AND on a rack.

Do you poke holes or agitate the container? Or is your very slow cooling method taking care of the air pocket problem in your palm containers?

TIA,

Jenn

[Stella1952]

Do you poke holes or agitate the container?

Jenn, I "thump" the molds to loosen the air bubbles and then disturb the hardening surface so those bubbles can escape - both things. This is the method I have found that works best for me. It doesn't matter whether one is making votives, pillars, Easter Island Heads or containers - that's how I deal with air pocket formation in palm wax candles.

Or is your very slow cooling method taking care of the air pocket problem in your palm containers?

The slow cooling has nothing to do with air pockets, Jenn. That has to do with crystal formation.

I know it's long, but go back and reread what I wrote... You asked about the issues of 1) air pockets and 2) different crystallization patterns and I addressed both issues.

[grama]

jennhalcyon you are asking about the Glass Glow and that is a container - jar candle wax. I have made quite a few of them and have not had problems with air pockets. I do not poke relief holes in my container. When I start making my palm wax - be it container or pillar wax I turn off air and ceiling fan. The room gets very hot! I do not heat my containers. The only thing I do is cool the jar or pillar mold on a dish drain turned upside down and put them in my laundry room and close door so I can turn air back on! Mine have always crystalized very good. On my pillars I poke relief holes and have not had trouble with air pockets. The feather palm seems easier to work with to me than the starburst palm. Those are the only 2 of the pillar palm wax I have made. Everyone has their own special way of doing them that works for them. Just try it and see what works for you. Palm wax is very addictive!

I have also found that pouring slowly really helps with palm as well as paraffin.

[KMommy]

I totally agree with Stella on this. Palm is just more prone to air pockets. Without being able to see completly into the container we really can't be sure if a container has an air pocket or not. I've seen them when test burning a few of my containers with the GG. So if air pockets are there on a few then I am sure they can be with others. The slow cooling is what helps with the crystalizations but not the air pockets.

As for the poking relief holes not always working that is true also. I had made a palm pillar and poked the holes and did a repour in the usual manner. When I took the pillar out of the mold I accidentialy dropped it on the floor and it split in half. There were several air pockets still in the pillar. Some where right next to where I had poked and repoured.

[Stella1952]

jennhalcyon you are asking about the Glass Glow and that is a container - jar candle wax.

Which is why I suggested that people read what the manufacturer said about their container palm formula...

I have made quite a few of them and have not had problems with air pockets.

Have you cut one in half to actually SEE if there are air pockets in there?

I'm truly glad you are having such great results, grama, but whether it is a container formula or a pillar formula, the air-trap problem is a characteristic of crystallizing palm wax and the solution is to let the air out. If you check out the site I referenced above, I think you will find that I am not blowing smoke. I've been working with palm waxes for a few years now and I can validate Jenn's problem(s) with the Glass Glow formula (which is NOT a different species of palm wax as some folks seem to think!) as can many others who have worked with it. The same phenomenon occurs with palm wax votives, pillars, molded candles and containers. It seems a little worse with larger crystal patterns than it does with fine patterns or no crystals whatsoever.

That you are not having air-trapping problems with your containers or the two pillars you have made doesn't mean these problems do not exist for others or a palm wax manufacturer would not address them!

[grama]

Stella - you won't get an argument started with me, the 2 pillars referred to the 2 pillar palm waxes. I have made quite a few more than 2 pillars. fyi

[Stella1952]

Stella - you won't get an argument started with me

Peace, Grama - I am not trying to start an argument with you or anyone, I only wished to address the questions Jenn had and the solutions I have found (and that those with more knowledge than I possess have recommended) and to also let her know that she is not the only person who has these problems. :lipsrseal

[lsbennis]

is it possible to mass produce these candles for retail? I love the GG but it sure sounds like it would be very labor intensive to get this wax to behave...I have tried and so far no luck but would love to wholesale them but until there is a more simple way to produce larger quantities Im just going to make them for myself....

[KMommy]

I have seen palm contianer candles in several grocery stores, can't remember the company name. So yes, it's possible. I've purchased a few to see how they perform. I find the cold throw was good but the hot throw was not there at all on most. The candles I burned had air pockets. So I think they are simply making the candles and not concerning themselves if there are air pockets or not. That bothers me so I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that.

[suzanneg]

Peace, Grama - I am not trying to start an argument with you or anyone, I only wished to address the questions Jenn had and the solutions I have found (and that those with more knowledge than I possess have recommended) and to also let her know that she is not the only person who has these problems. :lipsrseal

I am backing Stella up cause what she says is right! I have encountered all of these problems and have took her advice and now my candles are wonderful! If you work out the problems with this type of wax, you can acheive beautiful results and yes I mass produce my palm wax candles, not on a large scale yet, but getting there!

Now one thing I do, to relieve air pockets is, a re-pour. When it looks kinda of slushy, I take my skewer stick I poke away and tap the jar to release the air bubbles. I even watch for them to come to the surface. I keep just enough melted wax on hand to fill the top. It may seem like a lot of work but my customers feedback is excellent!

I use a metal cooling rack with legs and a styrofoam cooler, and have had no problems with the crystalization (which isn't a big concern for me)!

I had thought of using a cheap heating pad to set the jars on to keep them warm but haven't the nerve to try it! maybe one day I will! My hubby went balistic when I mentioned it about the one we got now so I just dropped it! (Men!:rolleyes2 ) We did pay a pretty penny for it!

So just take all of the advice that is posted here and USE it, and work with it! What may work for some, may not work for others, but you won't know until you try it! HTH

[Stella1952]

is it possible to mass produce these candles for retail?

Well, yeah... depending on how massive you mean by "mass produced"... Actually, I hope no one can MASSIVELY produce these candles because not everything SHOULD be mass-produced! I hope that these remain a hand-made item forever! I would rather futz over a beautiful handmade candle that one can only get from a candlemaker than to see these in the grocery stores or god forbid, WalMart. Nearly ALL the pillars we make are palm wax and require just as much "futzing," but we can crank them out at a rate that's reasonable to me... I dunno if this would work with automated machinery (I HOPE not), but once you get your system down, it is not difficult to make many in one day.

[anabanana's candles]

I have noticed the air pockets, but my top is already hard. What am I doing wrong.. I do poke holes and repour. Is that enough???

[Stella1952]

I have noticed the air pockets, but my top is already hard. What am I doing wrong.. I do poke holes and repour. Is that enough???

Anabanana (just love that name!), if the top is too hard to penetrate, you waited too long. If you will reread that looong missive I wrote :embarasse earlier in this thread, it makes the point clear that this is a problem that happens as the candle cools, so you have to do the relief holes, etc. at that point, or the air pockets will be trapped and form anyway.

Rather than poking, I wait until there is about 1/8" of hardening wax on the top, then I take my handy dandy thin-bladed knife and cut a circle about 1/4" from the edges of the candle and all around the wick. I break and push the hardened cutout down into the liquid center as far as I can, and poke around in there to encourage the air bubbles to rise to the now liquid surface. Each time I do this (usually 3-4 times for a tall 3" pillar), more of the candle has hardened so one cannot go in as deeply... it sounds much more difficult than it really is... The good thing is that it really seems to take care of the lion's share of those air pockets and the wicks burn more evenly as a result.

In case you are confused because I am talking about pillars and not about containers, I do the same thing for votives and molded candles and containers. Doesn't matter - palm wax is palm wax in this regard. HTH

[suzanneg]

Well, yeah... depending on how massive you mean by "mass produced"... Actually, I hope no one can MASSIVELY produce these candles because not everything SHOULD be mass-produced! I hope that these remain a hand-made item forever! I would rather futz over a beautiful handmade candle that one can only get from a candlemaker than to see these in the grocery stores or god forbid, WalMart. Nearly ALL the pillars we make are palm wax and require just as much "futzing," but we can crank them out at a rate that's reasonable to me... I dunno if this would work with automated machinery (I HOPE not), but once you get your system down, it is not difficult to make many in one day.

Stella I would never use machinery mass producing with my palm wax! heck no! If I have to hire more hands to pour then I will!

I strive for that "made by hands" and not machinery method!

If I ever get to the point of a warehouse, I still would have all of my candles, and other products, hand-poured, hand-made and not by machines! We have so many people that have been laid off their jobs and I would love to be able to hire jobless people..........one of these days! That is one of my goals for my business too!

[lsbennis]

Well, yeah... depending on how massive you mean by "mass produced"... .

I guess my idea of mass produce would be more then 20 or 30 of each fragrance at a time...lol :tiptoe:

[Stella1952]

We have so many people that have been laid off their jobs and I would love to be able to hire jobless people..........one of these days! That is one of my goals for my business too!

What a GREAT goal!!! I think people miss a lot these days not being able to MAKE things... there is a satisfaction and personal sense of pride to handcrafting things that's hard to get any other way!

[suzanneg]

What a GREAT goal!!! I think people miss a lot these days not being able to MAKE things... there is a satisfaction and personal sense of pride to handcrafting things that's hard to get any other way!

Stella,

I love hand crafted items! it means so much more from the heart!

I am relying on God on this mission! I would love to get a warehouse and hire enough people to hand make everything to MY specifications. the only machinery that will be used is for printing (labels and such), phone, etc.

and PRESTO POTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (of course) oh and sewing machines for the scented fabric products. (hate to hand sew)

[judyvega]

Thanks for all the info you have given in this thread, Stella - I am getting my glass glow today, and it will be my first time working w/palm wax AND containers, so I'll be pretty lost lol. Appreciate you taking the time to break it down in that first post of yours.

[jennhalcyon]

Yes thank you Stella and everyone else who chimed in...I am expecting a 10# bag (the first was just a #) so I will be able to play around some more!

[Stella1952]

Judy, it's gonna be strange for ya... palm wax is just a different sort of beast. When I first dripped some, tried to scrape it up and it powdered, I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore... It's pretty stuff - I think you will enjoy it!

Have fun, Jenn! Hope everything works out well for you now!