Need info/help about bad lotion...

[beau's mama]

Ok, I spent most of yesterday searching the forum & internet to the best of my ability trying to find anything on the "symptoms" of using "bad" lotion, but I'm having absolutely no luck. I found some things on the subject of preservatives uses, but not actual symptoms. Maybe in my hastiness I missed it. So if any of you can help by pointing me in the right direction I would really appreciate it.

My girlfriend's sister purchased some handmade lotion & soap from one of her friend's aunts. She wouldn't accept my handcrafted soap, even cursed me out about it 'cause "I don't know what the hell I'm doing"! And she's known me her whole life! Just being her usual pretend evil self...and has issues...thinks I helped "raise" her wrong! The woman she purchased from, from what she told Micki, does the same damn thing I do: use the kitchen as a "lab"!

Anyway, from Micki's account, Marge used them & within a few hours said she felt "tingly" & a bit itchy but shrugged it off. She used them the next day, same thing, only more itching & burning. She never got a chance to use them a third day b/c she woke up red all over, with weird blotches everywhere. Micki says the blotches almost look like "burns". She went to the emergency room and they admitted her! The doc said b/c they needed to run blood work, etc b/c it "looked" like some sort of reaction to bacteria (?). Blood work came back, but they are sending it out again b/c something looks "off"...I haven't heard anything back form Micki yet.

Well, knowing that Marge has no known allergies, my first thought was the B&B products, particularly the lotion. So I had Mick rattle off the ingredients to me...the soap ingredients are normal, & the lotion seems pretty basic to me, oils, butters, fragrance etc. But she did say a few that I have no knowledge of: olive oil infused "nettles" , silica, polyacrylamide, c1314 isoparrafin, laureth7. What the hell are those? What I thought was odd was that the parabens were listed near the top (?) Maybe just incorrect ingredient listing :undecided I don't know

Anyway, it seems like the docs refuse to even consider the possibility that maybe the lotion is the cause, or something in it, but knowing that hospital the way I do, I really shouldn't be surprised. Not a great hospital, not even a good one. I told her to take the damn lotion to them & act a fool until they at least make an attempt to consider it & look at it. I don't even know if/how they could test it, but hell, a shot in the dark is better than no shot at all! Even in light you can still miss!

I would really appreciate any direction anybody can give. I love this girl, & I'm worried, so I have to try to help some kind of way!

TIA

Sharon

[soapermom]

I have seen those ingrediants in commercially made lotions and cleansers. There is always a possibility she had an allergic reaction to ANYTHING.. the body can form an allergy at any time, even to things we had no previous allergy to.

The only thing concerining me in those ingrediants is the polyacrylamide, if this isnt processed in a competant lab, the derivitive, acrylamide, can still be present and that is a neurotoxin.

[BLSoaps]

You're right in the fact that she needs to get that lotion to the doctor's and have them test it. There's another lady that I ran across years ago that had a similar situation, and ended up with the infection in her blood. It nearly killed her. And they traced it back to a handmade lotion that wasn't preserved properly.

I'm not saying it is from bacteria in the lotion, it may be any number of things, or allergic reations, but if the doctor is saying it looks like bacteria exposure, then this lotion needs to be investigated further. By the time you can see any kind of visible growth or problems with the lotion, it is WAY too late.

As for the parabens in the listing, if she listed them properly, they should be in descending order. And usually the preservative is always used last. Most paraben based preservatives are used in ratios of 0.5-1% of the entire formula. Preservatives are also one of those things where more is not better. They usually become skin irritants at higher percentages.

Either way, whether it's too much preservative or poorly preserved, she needs to get that lotion in there and get it tested.

I hope she feels better soon.

[beau's mama]

Soapermom, by cleansers you mean "body" cleansers, right? I printed your post & takin it with me, even docs don't know everything. Thank you

Lindsey, I pulled out the paper I half wrote the ingredients on...the crazy thing about the parabens that they were not only listed near the top, but also in between other ingredients : d-water, shea butter, coc oil, parabens, mor oils/butters, silica, the nettles stuff, etc. Maybe I wrote it down wrong. Maybe just improper listing...I'm about to go & find out.

I'm not trying to accuse the woman of anything...I've read so much about proper ingredient listing & the proper/improper use of preservatives, here & by searching on my own...I just like to think that other people have (do) also...and if so, one would at least know the correct way to list & safe % usages. Maybe the weird sounding ingredients & the way they're listed just rubs me the wrong way, but it slapped a caution sign in my face. I'm not ruling out other possibilities either...Marge could have suddenly become allergic to nuts & nut butters for all we know, or even something she ate...but from the sounds of it, whatever it is appears beyond irritation to me. And that worries me.

My girlfriend is picking up and hasn't responded to my messages, so I'm heading to Chicago to see WTF is going on. Hopefully, I can convince her to get her out of that crappy hospital for starters...screw what it costs, we'll manage.

Thank you, thank you both for your responses.

Sharon

[sockmonkey]

Any updates on how this turned out?

[RobinInOR]

A hospital lab should be able to do an aerobic plate count on the lotion to see if it has a high level of microbes. I'd think they'd want to do that just to rule it out. It's only a $30 test, of course they'd probably charge a couple hundred for the privelege.

[beau's mama]

The hospital tested the lotion & didn't find any bacteria or anything like, but the testing showed a large amount of formaldehyde...so they are chalking it up to a reaction/allergy to the formaldehyde in the preservatives. I hate that hospital & every piece of staff in it! They just seem so matter of fact about everything...even when asked about long term effects. My only guess is she reacted to the "preservatives" and maybe other things...you tell me what you think.

We managed to see & talk to the lady about how she made the lotion. She was reluctant to tell us what she uses in the lotion because "nobody ever told me they had a problem with it, so it ain't my lotion that irritated her" Maybe she thought we were going to steal her recipe (?) Sooooooo, I had to get really, really, really ignorant and I told her that I would report her to every government agency I could think of because for one she made a product that could possible be the cause of someone's health issue and secondly, she's making & selling s**t without a license. I don't know much, but I do know that if she were legit w/ the whole thing, she'd have more on the damn labels than "Shea Butter Lotion" and ingredients! No company name, no weight...nothing but what I told you. Screams illegitimate to me!

So after my ghetto outburst, she finally told us what she uses...still being a b***h the whole time, which really got to me. She makes 32oz at a time, uses normal oils as far as I could tell & I guess the process she explained is the correct way to make lotion...I don't know, I've never made it. All the bottles were labeled with what was supposed to be in them, no supplier name or anything on them (I know, really off) And the only thing that had a "brand name" on them were the preservatives she uses...Phenohip & Germaben II...no problem w/ me 'cause I do know they are used in lotion. BUT, for each batch she makes she uses 3oz of EACH. Like I said, I don't know how to make lotion, but that just seems like a whole bottle to me. Is that right? I know it's measured in percentages, right? Ok, so I asked her where she ordered her supplies from, and get this, she doesn't "order" them...she get's them from a local store that orders for her. Here's the kicker...I was born & raised in Chicago in the community she lives in, and as a kid I was told never to go into that "store" because while it was a general store on one side...it was a voo-doo shop on the other side! And according to my friends who still live in the neighborhood, the name has changed but everything else is stil the same. I was pretty much done with her after she told me that. I told her that if she was really serious about continuing to do this that I know of reputable & legit suppliers & other resources where she could get a lot of helpful info. Wanna know what she told me? Hmphh, the heifer told me that where she gets her "stuff" is fine with her & not causing anybody any problems so she would keep using them. Basically, I guess she really told me to kiss her a**! I wish I could talk to some of the people from where she used to live! Not one time did she ever ask us how Marge was!

And I am pissed:mad: b/c to me it's so damned irresponsible. I'm all for people crafting & making a little money...but not possibly at the expense of someone's health, and I want to tell somebody. Mick & Marge don't want to or want me to, but I'm really close to it...not b/c she pissed me off, but b/c what if someone has a worse reaction to her stuff than Marge did? yeah, Marge could be 1 in a million to react that way, but what if she's not? DH says I have a moral responsibility to let someone know so thay can at least check into it & her. I try to be careful & choose what crap I want to live with on my conscience...I don't want to knock someone struggling & trying to make ends meet, but I sure as hell don't want to find out that b/c someone wanted to smell good, they got really sick! Choose the witch or the devil huh?

Anyway, Marge is home...the ugly outbreak is healing, but I think she's going to need some really good oil or something to use on her skin because it just looks...well...really bad. Not just where the reaction occured, but all over her body. It's not ashy but more dry/scaly-snake like and I think she's gonna end up with some light patches. My first thought of oil for her was Emu and/or Neem. What do you think? Any suggestions? I'm completely comfortable with mixing regular oils as long as it doesn't require preservatives, so please recommend away. I guess one positive from this mess is that she actually asked me if I would make her a batch of unscented soap. After 6 months of being cursed out by this child about my soap, I'm actually honored that she asked

What a hella few weeks this has been! Thanks everybody for your input

Sharon

[CareBear]

Emu oil is quite healing. I vote for that, whipped with some unrefined shea if the skin is not raw or broken. But straight emu is good if you ask me.

I don't know much about neem except that it stinks to high hell!

[Hibiscus]

I agree with using emu oil and shea butter. Might want to try wheatgerm too.

[beau's mama]

Thank you ladies!

CB: you're right...the Neem is absolutely awful...but when I researched, purchased, & saw for myself what it can do, I learned to embrace the horrible smell. I've read that Lavander EO can help, but I haven't tried it yet. I've got a story about Neem...I'll tell you about it one day.

Hibiscus: Thanks for mentioning the WG Oil...not one I'm familiar with. I've been doing a little research on it...seems like one I need to add quickly!

Thanks again

Sharon

[Carrie]

Responding to the preservatives. Preservatives work at about 1% of the recipe, she is using 10%. That is excessive, more is not better when it comes to preservatives.

[Rebecca_IA]

For a 32 oz batch, she's using 3 ounces of phenohip and germaben?

Is it 32 oz of lotion and 6 oz of preservative added in? Or 26 oz of lotion and 6 oz of preservative? that's a range of 15-19% preservative, way too much.

If I were you, I'd report her to the FDA. Not only call them, but also copy the testing on the lotion, diagnosis and everything and send a letter and follow up on this.

I'd also send the woman a copy of all hospital expenses and let her know it's her responsiblity to pay them. It was her lotion that poisoned your friend and I can not believe more folks aren't reacting hobbibly to this lotion with that amount of preservative in it.

It's asshats like this that's going to soon enough require everyone that makes this stuff at home and sell it go through a bunch of BS in order to do that.

[HeavenScentU]

Now I know why so many people are hesistant on trying lotions that are homemade. Me included! One store that I have my candles in sells a soy lotion that is homemade by a local lady and have heard the lotion is horrible but the owner won't pull it off the shelves. The owner complains the lotion separates and is clumpy and asks me why. I have told the owner to ask the lady that makes the stuff, but she won't, she asks me. I have no answer, because I don't make lotion nor do I want to. That is so scary...

[beau's mama]

Is it 32 oz of lotion and 6 oz of preservative added in? Or 26 oz of lotion and 6 oz of preservative?

Rebecca, you know, I really can't say. She didn't (wouldn't ?) break it down to me like that. From the way she explained it, it really sounded like the preservatives are added in addition to the 32oz batch (?) I just don't know. The more we question Marge, the more questions I have about this woman. She and the woman's neice have been friends for a few years, and the Aunt just popped up in Chicago seemingly out of nowhere. Can't seem to get anything out of the neice about where she came from. And I'm already on the FDA. Micki's taking her sister to get copies of the reports. Both of them are still reluctant about reporting her, but that's their problem. Won't be the first time they didn't like something I did. I decided it was just the right thing to do. I know if anybody told me that my soap, butters or body oils did anything negative to them, I'd be all over the place trying to find out WTF happened. This woman just really doesn't seem to care. I think if someone doesn't care about his/her product & care about knowing how to make it properly & with minimal danger, then they don't deserve the privilege.

Thank you for your input. I'll be updating.

Now I know why so many people are hesistant on trying lotions that are homemade. Me included!

Sweety, I know, but try not to let this scare you. I think the same thing could happen with commercially made products. I personally had reactions, though not this severe, when I used the "store" brought stuff.

Has any of the customers complained about the lotion? IMO, the store owner is just as irresponsible as this crazy woman.

Sharon

[Rebecca_IA]

Even if it's 32 oz of ingredients and then add the 3 oz of each kind of preservative, that's still a motherload of preservative. (7.89% of each kind of preservative in the batch, total 15.79% preservative in the batch).

I am sure you can contact the companies that make the preservative and ask them what the side effects/potential danger would be in using this much preservative.

This ladies error caused your friend's reaction. She should pay the entire bill, no questions asked. There is a reason why there is a max on how much you use of each ingredient.

I wish your friend the best of luck in recovery. Unless you get cosmetic grade emu, I wouldn't use it. No sense in risking her anymore problems. Use antibiotic salve until her skin is all healed or shea that's been at least filtered.

[beau's mama]

Even if it's 32 oz of ingredients and then add the 3 oz of each kind of preservative, that's still a motherload of preservative. (7.89% of each kind of preservative in the batch, total 15.79% preservative in the batch).

I am sure you can contact the companies that make the preservative and ask them what the side effects/potential danger would be in using this much preservative.

This ladies error caused your friend's reaction. She should pay the entire bill, no questions asked. There is a reason why there is a max on how much you use of each ingredient.

I wish your friend the best of luck in recovery. Unless you get cosmetic grade emu, I wouldn't use it. No sense in risking her anymore problems. Use antibiotic salve until her skin is all healed or shea that's been at least filtered.

Rebecca, thanks, I hadn't even thought about contacting the companies. I have been really looking into preservatives b/c eventually I want to make my own lotion...still building up the confidence. I'm not that great at math, but I knew when she said how much she adds it just sounded like too damned much.

Marge is insured so the bill isn't a problem. She will be off work for a while & DH suggested that she should file a suit...hell, I should file a suit for the pain & suffering she caused me mentally!

She does have a prescribed salve she's using...I'm waiting on the go-ahead from the doc before I whip up the butter or oil. And yep, I have cosmetic Emu Oil.

Thank you again! I really appreciate all of you!

Sharon

[Rebecca_IA]

I would at least make that lady pay all of the related medical bills, all of them, not just the co-pays or percent owed after deductibles.

If she doesn't willingly do that, then I would sue.

If I sound harsh, just imagine the others out there with her lotion that has at least a 15% preservative load in it. That's dangerous for the average adult. She's been talked to about it, she sees nothing she's doing as wrong.

What if this lotion were put on a baby? Imagine what would happen then?

If this lady doesn't take it seriously, then hit her in her pocket book and hit her hard. Not to financially gain, but to prevent this from happening to another, God forbid the next time it'll be a baby or small child or elderly who can't heal/recover as quickly.

[atracybrat]

Wow poor girl! Well I would have the *product* tested at the hospital so they can compare the ingredients with her test results/symptoms/reactions etc.. its hard to say, the body tends to do its own thing when it comes to a reaction of some sort.. far as bacteria.. hmm hate to think someone used tainted products..

Tracy

[beau's mama]

Wow poor girl! Well I would have the *product* tested at the hospital so they can compare the ingredients with her test results/symptoms/reactions etc.. its hard to say, the body tends to do its own thing when it comes to a reaction of some sort.. far as bacteria.. hmm hate to think someone used tainted products..

Tracy

Hi Tracy, see my earlier posts...they didn't find any bacteria in the lotion, just a huge amount of formaldehyde, so I guess you could say that's what "tainted" the lotion.

I would at least make that lady pay all of the related medical bills, all of them, not just the co-pays or percent owed after deductibles.

If she doesn't willingly do that, then I would sue.

If I sound harsh, just imagine the others out there with her lotion that has at least a 15% preservative load in it. That's dangerous for the average adult. She's been talked to about it, she sees nothing she's doing as wrong.

What if this lotion were put on a baby? Imagine what would happen then?

If this lady doesn't take it seriously, then hit her in her pocket book and hit her hard. Not to financially gain, but to prevent this from happening to another, God forbid the next time it'll be a baby or small child or elderly who can't heal/recover as quickly.

Rebecca, I agree with everything you've said. As strong as the potential is that someone will or already has been hurt by this woman's product, Marge is an adult now, and we can't force her to do anything...at least not right now. And from the looks of what I saw, I can only come to the conclusion that that wacko doesn't seem to have a pocket book to hit! The best that could out of a suit is that she'll stop making it altogether (my prayer) or learn how to make it correctly with ingredients from a reputable supplier. I'm still reporting it/her...nobody can stop me from doing that...but beyond that, it's up to Marge.

Thanks

Sharon

[van_yulay]

Holy hanna.... 3% is a huge amount of presevative...... She would have to be making 390 Ounces at a time.not 32 ...I dont like Phoniep (how ever you spell it), I broke out just having it in my store. Girl Put straight emu oil on it that is a chemical burn!!!I know this was posted late but keep putting on the emu oil even after scaring and it will heal with time!! http://cgi.ebay.com/Emu-Oil-Pure-Refined-Cosmetic-Grade-8-0Z_W0QQitemZ9524236117QQihZ007QQcategoryZ36453QQcmdZViewItem

Lotion that has gone bad, the first thing is it gets watery. Second is the products get chunky or funky, third is smell. If you are not sure, through it away, 1 bottle of lotion is only 10.00. compared to a hospital bill is nothing!! Monica

[elegantnaturals]

I was under the impression that Phenonip and Germaben were formaldehyde free? If so, were the heck did the formaldehyde come from?

I sincerely hope Marge is feeling better soon! My heart freezes up when I think of what happened to her may happen to a child or baby!

Take care

April

[beau's mama]

Monica, thanks for pulling this up & posting. So much goes on in my life, I forgot to update this.

First off, Marge is doing wonderfully. I didn't make the butter, but instead opted for the straight Emu. I didn't want to have to worry about preservatives and all. Those ugly blotches have healed dramatically, although some areas still have that white look, like you get after a sore has healed. The last couple of months, I've mixed the Emu w/ Meadowfoam seed & Vit E (T-50) & she seems to like it. She puts the oil on the spots daily, but she said her skin feels really good & soft, so she doesn't use the oils on her entire body everyday. I have a soap that I originally made for my neice's Eczema that has Emu, & a gazillion butters in it, & a touch of Lavender EO. She's been using that & it seems to agree w/ her. I've been trying to ease her back into scented products, but it's not working. She barely wants to use deodorant from the store now. I guess I can't blame her much.

We did report the woman to the FDA, health department, & the state. My MIL has some friends who did a little digging & they discovered that she had no business license, and if I understood correctly, that's similar to tax evasion b/c no license = no tax ID = not reporting income = a big no-no to the government. So at some point it'll all catch up to her. The store that "ordered" the supplies for her is "still being investigated"

The health dept. actually went out to her house to "investigate", but that was useless. According to them, they could never gain entry & when they finally did, it was only because she had moved out. Too late, nothing to see and/or investigate. And of course her neice, who has been strangely MIA lately, doesn't seem to know where her aunt moved to.

About the FDA: they didn't seem to care much. After some research, I really understand WHO the FDA is, and they are not who I originally thought they were. Mass market products = money..."lowly" hand-crafters = nada. Nuff said.

Sharon

Elegantnaturals: I think the parabens themselves are the source of the formaldehyde (as in releasers) but I could be wrong. Hopefully, someone with way more knowledge than I will chime in.

[Jadryga]

Actually, it's the diazolidinyl urea in Germaben II that releases formaldehyde. The parabens are not formaldehyde donors, but they can be pretty irritating by themselves in large doses.

The amount that woman used is just plain overkill though. With the chemical stability of parabens her lotion will probably last for the next 20 years, and man, that is NOT a good thing.

I'm sad to hear that she never got properly investigated or what she deserved. Hopefully, she's learned her lesson and she'll stop peddling things without proper research and quality control.

On the other hand, glad to hear Marge is doing great!