Maggie Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I know this subject comes up a lot but I'm trying to decide what to do about this particular situation. At a recent craft show where I was a vendor there was another candlemaker. My candles are my own soy paraffin blend and my banner and all signs explain that. I tell customers straight what is in my blend. The other candle person wasn't too far from me and I was able to see her display of soy candles in every color of the rainbow. We didn't get a chance to chat because I was doing the show alone and had to depend on the crafter beside me for potty breaks, plus we both were very busy with customers. I noticed the other candlemaker had very few customers and spent most of the day sitting on a chair outside behind her canopy talking with the crafters set up beside her. Not my idea of drawing in customers. I was doing a little online research and came across some info the other candlemaker tells about her candles. First of all she says...GOT SOOT, BURN SOY. We all know that story... But she also is advertising her candles as 100% all natural. Then she states natural soy vegetable wax with no additives. But goes on to say large selection of scents and colors. Now I WILL be doing this same show next year and I know for a fact she will be too. I am in the process of adding dye free 100% soy candles to my line. But mine will not be advertised as all natural because I will be using fragrance oils. I have decided to have a sign displayed with my soy candles explaining my product but also going to add something like, don't be fooled into thinking that soy candles won't soot because they can if not burned properly. Then something like once dye and fragrance is added to soy the candles are NOT considered all natural. What do you think? Am I being too much of a smarta$$?Maggie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrcr Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 No, I don't think you are. She is using false advertising to try to sell her product and run others down at the same time. People who don't make candles don't know what goes into the wax, and for all they know if she says her candles are all natural, many will believe her. It's not saying that the public is stupid, but just not educated about candle making. What you are proposing is educating them, which is in their best interest as well as your own. I think it is a great idea. And I do the same with my candles. I have a soy blend, and then a 100% soy line. Customers deserve to know the truth. If they find out that you misled them, you likely have lost them forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdscreations Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 No, I don't think you are. She is using false advertising to try to sell her product and run others down at the same time. People who don't make candles don't know what goes into the wax, and for all they know if she says her candles are all natural, many will believe her. It's not saying that the public is stupid, but just not educated about candle making. What you are proposing is educating them, which is in their best interest as well as your own. I think it is a great idea. And I do the same with my candles. I have a soy blend, and then a 100% soy line. Customers deserve to know the truth. If they find out that you misled them, you likely have lost them forever.Totally agree 100% with this. I was in the same situation as you Maggie, but unfortunately she was sitting right next to me. She would tell people that her candles were 100% all natural blah, blah, blah...then people would stop by my booth and ask how my candles are different and I would tell them the truth. So, it pi$$ed her off, but she is misleading the customers and hopefully won't be back with her untested candle wealth candles. Okay to get to the point, every chance that I get, I educate the consumer. There are too many fly by night people out there, trying to make a quick buck and not considering the safety of people. Okay I will now come down from my soap box. Sorry.Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I guess I have the oddball opinion because I don't go for either approach.I wouldn't sell candles based on how natural they are. On the same basis, I wouldn't offer any geeky explanation of the ingredients and what's "natural" or "unnatural" about them. I think the whole thing is a red herring and both approaches are misleading.I work my ass off to try and design candles that look good, smell good, and burn well. I obsess over those things. The customers I care about are the ones who appreciate a good candle (not to mention that they intend to burn it, not eat it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 For my lotions and soaps I say on my website what it is.Say something like:Our hand/body lotion is dye free but scented with a skin safe Fragrance oil. Say something in that line with your candles.No they are no natural unless nothing.I don't see many peopke wanting that.IN fact I see more people checking out my lotion since I quit using dye but for candles I just haven't got to that point.I love my colors. People want the fragrance for candles lotions etc.That is all they do is sniff and cannot get over how much they smell like the REAL thing.LynnS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Dallas_Texas_Dean Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 II was doing a little online research and came across some info the other candlemaker tells about her candles..... I have decided to have a sign displayed with my soy candles explaining my product but also going to add something like, don't be fooled into thinking that soy candles won't soot because they can if not burned properly. Then something like once dye and fragrance is added to soy the candles are NOT considered all natural. What do you think? Am I being too much of a smarta$$?Maggie+Yes, you are.In my opinion, you should take the high road and NOT get down in the dirt and wallow with the "un"professionals.Your first mistake was "doing a little research... on the other candlemaker"For WHAT? Leave it alone. It was a complete waste of your time UNLESS she matters to you and she shouldn't. Do not let her bring you down to her level.....and towards the end of your post, it is sounding like she already has.Sweep around your own back door and do not concern yourself with what others are doing or saying. The public is smarter than you think they are. There is no need to defend nor attack. It's not professional or pretty.JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsbennis Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I guess I have the oddball opinion because I don't go for either approach.I wouldn't sell candles based on how natural they are. On the same basis, I wouldn't offer any geeky explanation of the ingredients and what's "natural" or "unnatural" about them. I think the whole thing is a red herring and both approaches are misleading.I work my ass off to try and design candles that look good, smell good, and burn well. I obsess over those things. The customers I care about are the ones who appreciate a good candle (not to mention that they intend to burn it, not eat it).I agree with you Top but at the same time there are people like me who do appreciate the honesty and extra effort to create a candle that is not only the best candle but the most eco friendly candle and shows true concern for the well being of the customer and the environment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hope Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Without quantifying the exact amount and how it is 'all natural', it's just propaganda. Since the general public is inundated with various advertising methods from a very young age, most can probably discern such things. (..& some can't!) From a customer's perspective, fluffy advertising can be quite annoying.I definitely wouldn't get caught up in the matter, as well. It's just not worth it on so many levels. IMO, I think it does help to be informed of what other people are doing, and claiming with their candles & products. But, only to be informed and able to compose a knowledgeable and professional response if someone asks, "are yours all-natural?".I do believe that the FTC deals with the advertising of the products. Seriously, what benefits does an all-natural candle give to me? Whoopee. It the packaging had a high percentage of post-consumer recycled material, and is easily recyclable,.. that would be a good advertising point. A portion of the sales of candle(s) going to a charitable cause, another worthy (IMO) advertising point. The poison ivy plant is quite all-natural, but I try to give it plenty of personal space. I think a 'my candle can kick your candle's a$$' argument is pretty worthless for the long term. Emphasize your candle's positive attributes, the ones that will make the customers want to come back for more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyc Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 at my last show there was a woman selling her candles and bath and body products ,tell her customers that paraffin and store bought soap causes cancer. my daughter had been walking around, and stopped to see her stuff, and told her that i made candles cp soaps and b&b too. alittle while later she came down to "make sure" i had my products labeled correctly, and when to went to the bathroom, someone from her stand came down and took pics of my stuff! we think it was her hubby. i was livid too. i did later on the advice of some friends contact the shows coordinators and we figured out who she was. bad mouthing the competition is a sign of insecurity of your product in my opinon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxi4112000 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I agree, dont play into her way of doing things, if she wants to act that way with her products, let her, but dont bring customers into the battle, most of our customers dont know much about the whole process, and most probably dont care either, shell have a customer one day that will know alittle more about her candles amd will say something and put her on the spot, just worry about your product, not about hers when you do business that way it tends to nip you in the butt, and it will her someday. Besides didnt you say she wasnt getting much customers anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I agree with you Top but at the same time there are people like me who do appreciate the honesty and extra effort to create a candle that is not only the best candle but the most eco friendly candle and shows true concern for the well being of the customer and the environment...I understand that many candlemakers have sincere good intentions along these lines, but I believe that it's all false advertising. I'm with Hope on this. There's no proof that soy candles do anything for the well being of the environment and the consumer. The same is true for essential oils in candles. Candles aren't exactly a major area of government regulation, but if they were then all such claims would probably be banned.Nature is perfectly adept at producing poisons. That's where many of the best ones come from. Natural = safer is misleading. Soy processing is an industry. Soy = ecology is untrue. Paraffin is 100% natural and is used unchanged from the way mother earth made it from plants. Soy wax is synthesized in a factory designed by people with degrees in chemical engineering.The only place you're on solid ground is being a good candlemaker, regardless of the kind of wax you prefer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henryk Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Paraffin is 100% natural and is used unchanged from the way mother earth made it from plants. Soy wax is synthesized in a factory designed by people with degrees in chemical engineering.This is the part I don't get - don't chemists have to do the same type of thing - pulling (refining) the paraffin hydrocarbons out of oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinInOR Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Look at all the industry that is required for creating paraffinhttp://igiwax.com/wax_refining.shtmlLook at all the industry that is required for hydrogenating soy oilhttp://www.zfsinc.com/changes/refining.aspxI don't know, doesn't look too different to me. The last company I worked for built machinery for the food processing industry - nothing natural about any of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsbennis Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I understand that many candlemakers have sincere good intentions along these lines, but I believe that it's all false advertising. I'm with Hope on this. There's no proof that soy candles do anything for the well being of the environment and the consumer. The same is true for essential oils in candles. Candles aren't exactly a major area of government regulation, but if they were then all such claims would probably be banned.Nature is perfectly adept at producing poisons. That's where many of the best ones come from. Natural = safer is misleading. Soy processing is an industry. Soy = ecology is untrue. Paraffin is 100% natural and is used unchanged from the way mother earth made it from plants. Soy wax is synthesized in a factory designed by people with degrees in chemical engineering.The only place you're on solid ground is being a good candlemaker, regardless of the kind of wax you prefer.Perhaps it is all a matter of personal perspective...but I do not feel that I'm misleading anyone when I tell them my candles are eco-friendly. Personally I feel soy is a cleaner burn then parafin and I do believe that farming and creating soy is less invasive on the environment then drilling and refining crude oil as we all know what can happen when crude oil is spilled into the environment...(Exxon Valdez) But my scope of eco-friendly goes way beyond the wax of choice...lets face it they both burn and both create their own pollution. I have put a lot of thought into every aspect of my candles...I choose to use candle dyes that have more eco-friendly ingredients!I choose to use eco dyes in my printer when I print my labels!I choose to use FO's that do not contain Pthalates and various other chemicals!I choose to print my tags on post consumer recycled card stock!I choose to use post consumer recycled packaging!I choose to use comopact flourescent lighting in my work space!I choose to give back a percent of my sales to environmental causes....does this make my candle a better candle...NO...but it does make it an Eco-friendly candle and I in no way feel like I'm misleading anyone when I call my candle Eco-friendly but I do not call it 100% natural...there is a difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hope Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 This is the part I don't get - don't chemists have to do the same type of thing - pulling (refining) the paraffin hydrocarbons out of oil?It's cracked for it's various chemical properties, but I think the point is soy wax is heavily processed. We won't find pods of wax out in the soy fields waiting to be harvested. Chemical extraction, deodorizing, (possibly) bleaching, fertilizers, and pesticides are things that occur earlier in the life of typical soy wax. Hmmm... the most eco-friendly candle IMO would be a bayberry wax, or beeswax candle. Well, let's be friendly to the bees and vegans... stick to bayberry wax.To make it most naturally, whip up some firewood (not from 7-11) and a big ole pot of water (not from city tap, yucky chemicals in there). Might as well be au naturel while were being natural... Okay, so that's a tad extreme, and not quite feasible for any sort of large production. IMO, it's best to be truthful about the product. I don't think it's necessary to embellish soy wax with 'natural' or such. We don't need to explain the soy processing to customers. Most probably don't care. Just like the processing of hotdogs. Usually accompanies cookouts, but ewww.... no one wants to know about that or remember it. Just want to have a good time at the cookout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hope Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Isbennis, sounds like you have a thoughtful, eco-friendly business. :smiley2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsbennis Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Thanks Hope...I appreciate the compliment...I'm trying really hard to get a Seal Of Approval from Co-op America for a Green Business...Co-op America: Screening Green Businesses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Henryk, crude oil is a mish mash of substances that are useful for various purposes. The chemical engineering aspect is primarily concerned with how to separate it into its various useful components, one of which is paraffin wax.Paraffin is made in the depths of the earth from ancient plants and the refining process does not chemically change it even one iota, so if I were to label my candles as made from 100% natural paraffin wax it would be just as valid as doing that with soy (if not more so, since soy wax doesn't exist in nature). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rascal418 Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Maggie, jmho but your time would be better spent promoting your own products & preparing a professional response (to customers) rather than letting one inept chandler ruin your day. You had customers yes? That should tell you something I hear ya, it's annoying to be set up next to someone who has to drag products down to prop theirs up. Just scrape them off the bottom of your shoe like you know what. Tell the truth, label properly & try like hell not to trip into their booth because doncha know 100% natural doesn't break? I heard that zinger at a show not too long ago. If you're ever at a show & hear a crash, come running we'll all find out together if their 100% natural wax & glass doesn't break LOL(edited to correct spelling) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everito Bandito Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 I'd just sell my candles and let her sell hers. I wouldn't get into a battle of explaination through signs. I'd just concetrate on developing great candles and see if I get enough repeat business to justify my efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinetreecandles Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 I just recently moved back to WV from Maine. My bother sells collectibles and had an extra table for a 2 day festival this past weekend and asked me If I wanted to take one of the tables for my candles. My display stands got broken during the move, I didn't have any real time to get a nice supply of candles ready, and selling next to someone who is selling collectibles doesn't sound like success, but I did it anyway.I saw two other chandlers at this show. One had up a large banner and all kinds of signs with 100% natural soy. The other one didn't have a banner, but was soy also and had a listing of benefits from using soy so all could see. I had no signs and I don't use soy. I had a plan table and just the candles sitting out on it. I could see the other two candle makers from my spot and they had a few lookers and very few buyers, I on the other hand had lots of lookers and lots of buyers. 500.00 for two days was much better than I thought I would get at this show and with the most basic setup.Bottom line: People are much smarter than you think and most don't care what is in it as long as it smells great and is what they want. I wouldn't bother with that lady. If you need signs and information to sell your products then there is a problem. They should sell themselves.ps. Actually selling next to my brother was a good thing...the women with kids bought candles while the kids bought collectibles. Even made a few sales to men who bought collectibles and then bought a candle for their wife so she wouldn't get mad for buying the collectibles in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadawn Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Honestly what I think it comes down to is honesty with your customers, and meeting their needs. The first question we are always asked is "are these soy?", but of course, I live in the middle of the soy bean state (Iowa). It's important to them. Natural is not, but soy is. We tell our customers up front - ours are made from 100% soy and beeswax. We don't use additives or dyes, but we do use fragrance oils. That's all they need to hear and they are sold. Honestly I do think the term "natural" has been so overused, it's flat out ignored anymore. Organic is getting there, but the term "natural" is almost associated with "we're telling you a big fat lie to make you buy our products". Although being honest and saying "nope, these aren't natural, we use fragrance oils" really says a lot. People have no issues with the fragrance oils, but they do with the wax (at least around here - other places this could be a completely different story).Now I wouldn't get "down and dirty" with the competition, but I would focus on being up front with your customers (which you seem to be already doing). Yes it irritates me to see false advertising, but once you tell them the truth about your candles without mentioning the competition, they can better spot the truth on their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 It's one thing to say positive truthful things about a product, and something completely different to bash other peoples products. As far as burning candles myself, I love the way paraffin throws, it's what I started out with. Now, I do have 2 kids with asthma, and I dont care what anyone says, paraffin candles make them wheeze. Now, I will also say that some FO's even in soy makes them wheeze too, but there arent alot. (cinnamons are the worst). I personally love working with my soy/paraffin blend. It doesnt affect my kids like the straight paraffin, and I get great throwing candles that burn cleaner. At the first show I did, I had some people making "100% pure soy candles" next to me. I went over and smelled their products and was very nice even though I liked my candles appearance and cold throw much better. Later on they came over and were looking at my candles, and they immediatly went into how blends just arent as good as pure soy candles, and that dyes are bad and blah blah blah. Well, I was just shocked at how competitive and ugly they really were behind their fake smiles, all the while bashing my candles at my own booth. That was a good lesson for me to see that some people only sell by putting others down and they will say anything to make their product sound superior, even lying about them. Oh well, it's easy to sell a candle to someone one time, but you know your doing something right whebn you get those loyal customers that come back time & time again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaglady Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I don't sell (or even make) candles yet, but I do sell soap & there's a definite parallel here. I believe in taking the high road and avoid making negative comments about another vendors products. When asked if my soap is 'all natural', I usually tell the customer it depends on how they define 'natural'. Then I tell them about my locally sourced ingredients, how I render my own tallow, but that I use fo's, etc. Usually, they respond by turning to their comanion and saying, "Hey Betty, did you see how pretty this soap is. And its all natural. Here, smell" Then they but some.IMO, just make a good product, be able to explain why it's good if asked, but keep away from spreading negative energy about other vendors. Let them make their own, lol.Diane W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VerticallyEnhanced Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 It could all be in the wording some times too. My old label design said all natural soy wax. The wax is "natural" but I explain that the candle as a whole is not. I actually have changed the wording on my new label designs...it was too misleading and I don't wanna be lumped into the "buy my candle or die burning others" catagory. I am very forthcoming on my site and in person that it is very hard to have an totally "natural" candle. I just don't believe in marketing through scare tactics, but unfortunately, some feel it is the only way they can sell. Words like cancer and carcinogens are just thrown around too many times. I agree with Michael...take the high road and let your products speak for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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