Why don't all scents work in soy ?

[waxing moon]

HI

I am new 'round here. Many yrs ago I made paraffin candle, I have taken 8 years off.lol and am getting started again but this time with soy.Thank you for all the valuable info you guys have here ! but my gosh soy is a different animal than a regular ol' candle.

I am curious though, what is it about the soy that prevents scents from working in it ? I am making several candles with great cold throw but zip when burning. ( I am testing and adjusting etc all the tricks posted everywhere on these boards..lol , Also came to the conclusion I need to make sure the scent I am buying is "concentrated" , and has been tested in or specifically formulated for soy..lol so more samples are coming..and I can stop banging my head against the wall....lol)

Question #2- if you are test burning a scented candle and the scent doesnt throw, does that mean there a higher risk of scent pockets that will possibly ignite ?(similar to a poorly made gel candle) (everyhting I poor appears to be binding with the wax just fine, I am just curious if this is a possibility.)

Thanks a lot

Waxing moon

[Luci]

I've bought scents that were listed as "excellent" for soy throw. They smelled great. Burned them and NOTHING. I'm burning one now done in Black Cherry from Aroma Haven that was supposed to have a "good" soy throw. Nothing. On the 6th burn and I think I smell it but not sure. Had a friend test burning one in Chocolate Layer Cake that is rated "excellent." She says she smelled nothing. Go figure. :undecided

[Meridith]

Welcome Waxing Moon,

I don't know why it is exactly that some FOs just don't throw in soy but that is the way it is. Soy needs a larger wick than paraffin and a cure time. Some FOs will throw sooner than others, but some FOs need a longer cure time. Are you letting your candles cure? What type of wick and jar are you using? These are all factors that can affect the candle throw. I don't think a scent not throwing means a higher risk of scent pockets that could ignite. I think it would more than likely be other things - not enough cure time, wrong wick etc. You can add BW to your soy which can improve your throw . Quality FOs will help too but they don't have to be formulated for soy to get a good throw. If you can give us more info on your wax type, scent, container, wick additives etc. we can help you better.

[Luci]

I'm thinking that my impatience is what the problem with these last 2 candles is. I got overly anxious and burned after only 1 or 2 days cure time. I'm also burning one I made a couple of months ago in the same type container, same wick, but different scent. I can smell it all over the house!

[waxing moon]

I am testing serval different waxes..

Cargill C-3

Eco soya advanced (not very well suited to this Ca. heat., I am pouring outside and this is some soft wax..lol)

GW 444 (so far easiest to work with for me anyways...) I am adding zip to it

heating to 170 pouring at 130 .Personally I am fine with frosting adds to the uniquness of a one of a kind hand poured product..burning quality is my highest prioity)

I am making /testing /dreaming about..

4oz square tin (testing wick :htp 83, LX 16

8oz square tin (testing wick :htp 105

8oz jelly jars (testing Htp 93, Premier 750,)

4oz colbolt blue straight sided jar (testinged wicks LX 16

9oz cobolt blue straight sides (testing wicks Premier 765)

"Mini glass pillars" (o.k. container wax poured into votive cup..hehe)

( I am testing them with LX16)

Most things have been cured for 2-4 days before I tested)

SO If the right wick affects the throw whats the trick lol ? I assume we are striving for an even melt pool ? Does a 1"-2" deep melt pool increase the chances of a strong candle ?

Does adding beeswax make the candle softer ? How does adding BW encourage a better throw, soy is pretty soft to begin with.. ? How much bw per lb of soy is reccomended ?

Is it a general rule to add 9% fragrance load with soy ? I have started with the standard 6% and maybe thats part of the problem.

Questions , questions...

Thansks

Waxing Moon

[iammommytwo]

WOW Moon, lots of testing and lots of Q's....

As far as the FO's, for whatever reason, not all of them will work w/all types of soy .

I personally have not used the C-3. I have used the CBA for over a year, and do not have a "major" problem with the heat (I live in FL).It has been very consistent for me, but alot of people don't like it. If an FO did not throw @6%, I did not use it and also found that I could use less w/the darker heavier oils. I never use more than 9%.

It sounds like you are leaning towards the 444....so I would say run w/that.

You don't really want more than 1/3 - 1/2 " meltpool, cause your candle will burn faster and your FO will burn off sooner.

Try not to overload yourself w/too much at one time....the joy of soy can drive you nuts

HTH

[Meridith]

I am testing serval different waxes..

Cargill C-3

Eco soya advanced (not very well suited to this Ca. heat., I am pouring outside and this is some soft wax..lol)

GW 444 (so far easiest to work with for me anyways...) I am adding zip to it

heating to 170 pouring at 130 .Personally I am fine with frosting adds to the uniquness of a one of a kind hand poured product..burning quality is my highest prioity)

I am making /testing /dreaming about..

4oz square tin (testing wick :htp 83, LX 16

8oz square tin (testing wick :htp 105

8oz jelly jars (testing Htp 93, Premier 750,)

4oz colbolt blue straight sided jar (testinged wicks LX 16

9oz cobolt blue straight sides (testing wicks Premier 765)

"Mini glass pillars" (o.k. container wax poured into votive cup..hehe)

( I am testing them with LX16)

Most things have been cured for 2-4 days before I tested)

SO If the right wick affects the throw whats the trick lol ? I assume we are striving for an even melt pool ? Does a 1"-2" deep melt pool increase the chances of a strong candle ?

Does adding beeswax make the candle softer ? How does adding BW encourage a better throw, soy is pretty soft to begin with.. ? How much bw per lb of soy is reccomended ?

Is it a general rule to add 9% fragrance load with soy ? I have started with the standard 6% and maybe thats part of the problem.

Questions , questions...

Thansks

Waxing Moon

BW will not make your candle softer but will help with throw and can help with frosting. You can use from 1-5% but don't go over 5% or you more than likely will have to wick up. YOu will also have to adjust according to the weather but you will have to test to find out what percentages work best for you. I up my BW amount in the summer and lower it in the winter.

I don't use the waxes you use but can say that most soy really needs 9% FO but you can with certain fragrances go lower than 9%. You will need to test to see what FOs need what percentage.

The jars I use have a 3 inch diameter opening. With soy, 3 inches is about as far as you can take it with just 1 wick - after that, you will need to double wick. With my 3 inch jars, I can use an HTP 1212 and 1312, CD 20 & 22, 60 and 62 C and the 795 and 798 premier wicks depending on the FO. I like to get a MP no deeper than 1/2 inch ( I prefer around 1/4 inch) and a full mp by 3 hours since my jars are 3 inches in diameter (rule of thumb is 1 inch for every hour burnt but that is not a strict rule IMO). If I get a full mp faster than 3 hours, sometimes I don't mind as long as it doesn't happen too fast and my jar does not get too warm. Soy requires a hotter burning wick than paraffin since it is such a viscous wax.

After a 2-4 day cure, you should be able to smell it. It could be that you have candlenose too. Try leaving the room for a bit and coming back into the room to see if you can smell the candle.

I would try upping your % to 9% and adjusting from there. Also, give the candles a few more days to cure and burn again to see if that makes a difference. Check to make sure you have a full mp that is about 1/4 to 1/2 deep. Let someone else test also for you.

What FOs have you tested and where did you buy them? \

Hang in there, you will get this. It just takes time and perserverence.

[waxing moon]

I will heed everyones advice Try to not get too overwhelmed !

I have been testing

Bear Labs oils...I spoke to the bossman there and he said he does have clients use his oils in soy , he is local so shipping is fast, and FO are really reasonable.

so far his "grapefruit peppermint" and "amber and vanilla" are working well, (no fuel smell) Sweet pea has cold but no hot throw, blue lavender and blue bubblegum have potential but the I need a larger wick than I tried.

I have also ordered several samples from Save on Scents, I just bought the regular not the concentrated oils. I am just not thrilled with any of them(I have tested their cappucino,lime cilantro, jose margarita, blue gardenia, violet summer, sweet pumpkin pie) All so far have just been week I will probably retry at some point at 9% instead of 6% hopefully the oils won't go to waste..I order 4oz samples knowing I'd be testing different waxes)

I have samples ordered from MillCreek and samples from Royal aromatics on their way.

O.K. I will shoot for a less deep melt pool..(hahah still have a votive metality,

when I used to make those I wanted them to melt completely..lol)

Thanks a bunch...I"m off to find that bag of beeswax I put somewhere, and order more wick samples..lol

Thanks again..Happy Melting

Waxing Moon

[firegirl]

I have not had any success in SOS scents that were not Ultra Concentrate.. Some people here have, but I have found that I can use less oil if I buy the Ultra Con. version..

[Meridith]

Millcreeks oils are great. You can also get great oils at Snowtops, ASS formerly known as SFS, BCN/BNL, Daystar, Old Mill, KY, ICS, Tennessee and Aroma Haven just to name a few.

If you get too deep of a melt pool, you can burn more of your scent off than what is thrown so be careful there. Remember too, that some FOs just won't throw in soy. Even when you hear of an FO that will throw for someone, it still might not throw for you. If you've given enough time to get a decent throw and you still can't, don't waste any more time and move on. Also, just because one suppliers' FO, i.e., lavender, doesn't throw for you does not mean that all lavenders won't throw for you. Try another supplier and see how it goes with their FO.

Good luck!

[daniedb]

MC is very good for soy, especially their heavier Christmasy scents. I have also had success with WYW oils, but they are spendy for testing. I don't think there's been even one WYW oil that hasn't thrown like nuts in my soy. I get them through BCN.

At what temperature are you adding your FO to your wax? Also, depending on where you live, going over 3% b/w may cause cracks in your candles, and you'll want to lower the b/w amount in the winter. It actually makes the soy much harder, so it's a more attractive animal, LOL!

I usually use 6% of any of the FOs, there are a few exceptions, but not many. I'm not a fanatic about it, but I do like to stick to 6%, and most of them work great, with very strong throw. You may think about trying some tried and true FOs like Spiced Cranberry from MC or BCN, and see what you think at 6%.

[geekrunner]

Everyone so far has provided great info, so there's not much I can add. I have had some experience with the 444, and found the cold throw not suitable for me, but then again it could just need a longer cure time. If you can get some 464, give it a try, it works really well for alot of people.

geek

[Meridith]

I've tested the 449 and liked what I've seen so far with that one.

[Brad Ford]

I start this reply with this disclaimer - I am making a generalization. No hate mail please.

In the early days of soy blends, poor scent performance was a common complaint. It turns out that soy and FO didn't like each other much. The soy and FO have a polarity conflict - ie, their molecules don't really get along. However, upon this realization, fragrance suppliers were able to modify FO to achieve the performance people wanted out of soy and retain the orginal "smell". Soy blends and soy waxes have become so popular this is rarely an issue. Most any fragrance manufacturer has learned how to optimize for this. I do make it a point to tell all of my customers to make sure the FO supplier knows you are using a soy or soy blended wax. This should avoid problems.

Brad

[tangerine]

Is it a general rule to add 9% fragrance load with soy ? I have started with the standard 6% and maybe thats part of the problem.

I tested 444 with 8% FO load (didn't get good throw) before I found out that it could hold up to 15%! So I retested with 12% Splendid Butter Pecan (MC) and the hot throw was awesome!

[AngelaVA]

I tested 444 with 8% FO load (didn't get good throw) before I found out that it could hold up to 15%! So I retested with 12% Splendid Butter Pecan (MC) and the hot throw was awesome!

I'm not sure I would want to use a wax that requires that much FO to get a good throw :undecided

[Crowded House]

I haven't had any problems getting the 444 to hot throw with most scents I've tried at 6-8%. Some I could get to throw with less, in fact.

Of course some FO's I can't get to throw at any percentage in either 415 or 444.

[tangerine]

I'm not sure I would want to use a wax that requires that much FO to get a good throw :undecided

Yup, I agree. I was just playing around with my leftover sample.

[GordonK]

If you have any of your parrafin left you might try adding about 30% to the 444. I tried this with a single pour type and it seemed to help the scent throw for me. It also allowed me to go down two wick sizes. HTH.

[waxing moon]

Hi everybody,

I really appriciate all the suggestions ! I now have samples made with 2% beeswax, different sized wicks, and a stronger scent load...Now if I could get these to cure faster than 2 days I will be able to test hahahaha

As a side note , tough I can accept that soy need a higher fragrance load, a standard 12% would be really expensive to make ! I would think using that much the customers would get a case of candle nose and think the candle wasnt that powerful !

Also those of you in hot climates do you have problems with seepage or sweating ? I am in Calif. right now I am pouring outside, I have some candles that are "sweating" after they have set. At night when it cools off the oil gets reabsorbed. I have tried to ignite the oil on time to see if it was soybean oil or fragrance oil..it isnt catching, or sizzling ..(thankfully) I lit the candle and just it forms a melt pool

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Waxing Moon