CandleCouture Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Does anyone have a guideline for how hot is TOO hot for the glass to get when burning a container candle? I have an infrared thermometer and am able to measure the tempereature of the glass and was just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris77 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 There was a thread awhile back that discussed this....I think it was something like 170 degrees....I'm probably wrong...and if I am I know someone will jump in and correct....so please....if I'm wrong....jump in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandleCouture Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 I've been trying the search feature on this for the better part of two hours, but, my searches turn out to be either too narrow, or too broad. I can't quite find what I'm looking for that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris77 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 175 is the max according to this thread. Did a search for glass temperaturehttp://www.candletech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12511&highlight=glass+temperature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 IR thermometers don't work accurately for glass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandleCouture Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 They don't? What should I use? And, how do you know they don't work on glass? I looked at all the specs for mine and it doesn't mention anything for glass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest highflier Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Maybe I can clarify this subject matter. It has been posted wrong on a few times. I gave this information to a candle supplier when I first found out about it, but it got posted wrong. It has nothing to do with 175 degrees is the maximum the container can be when the meltpool has been acheived. When I first started making candles last year I wanted to know what was considered a safe candle. I made a few phone call and got put in touch with a man that was on the board of directors of the ASTM. They went to Washington and passed a ruling in late October to give some guidelines on what is considered a safe candle. Here is the final ruling:First trim the wick to 1/4". Light the candle and let it burn for 4 hours. At the end of the 4 hour burn, the glass should not be over 175 degrees. If your candle will pass this test it will be considered a safe candle according to the ASTM. If your container(glass) gets hotter then this then you have your candle overwicked and that can cause problems. When doing my testing after 4 hours my containers are around 120-125 degrees. I test burn everyone of my candles for 6-8 hours at a time. If I have to blow out a candle in a 6-8 hour burn because of huge flames then that wick is to big and I wick it down. Top is right, the IR therm. are not dead on accurate but they are somewhat close. Most hot water tanks are set at 135-140 degrees. That is some really hot water. If you can touch the container and not scald your hand more then likely it is not over that temp. Like I said I can put my hand around my container at 4 hours and hold it for 10-15 seconds before it starts to get hot. At 7-8 hours I can hold it for 5 seconds and it really starts to get hot. That is probably 150-160 degrees. I hope this clears this issue up.Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meredith_D Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Thanks, highflier. Is there another way to test the glass then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandleCouture Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 From what I understand, infrared thermometers measure a surface temperature based on the infrared waves coming off the surface. While it's only accurate to within +or- 2 degrees (roughly), it is probably accurate enough for our purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlewitch Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 I think you are getting over techincal. By using the right wicks, you shouldnt have any problems. I would like to know the difference in a Petro vs Soy vs Parasoy. The reason being is that I NEVER heard of a soy candle FLARING up possibly causing a fire and I have had this happen with a Parafin and so have family members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandleCouture Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 What people are fearing is the jar breaking (possibly even exploding), because it overheats. The issue isn't so much a fire being caused, at least not directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 From what I understand, infrared thermometers measure a surface temperature based on the infrared waves coming off the surface. While it's only accurate to within +or- 2 degrees (roughly), it is probably accurate enough for our purposes.IR thermometers have to be calibrated for the way particular substances radiate infrared energy. Most models you're liable to buy are preset so they work well on a variety of materials but glass isn't one of them. You'd need a special calibration for that. If you could stick a piece of black tape tightly to the glass and point the thermometer at that it might work. If you had a thermocouple thermometer with a contact probe I suppose that would be best.I'm surprised your owner's manual doesn't say anything about this. I was also psyched about a thermometer that could measure glass temperature until I researched how these work and downloaded a few manuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandleCouture Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 No, mine doesn't mention this of course it's a pretty basic model. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystical_angel1219 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 What people are fearing is the jar breaking (possibly even exploding), because it overheats. The issue isn't so much a fire being caused, at least not directly.This has happened to me, even with extensive testing.I believe I spoke of it in your double wicking tumbler thread. Mind you, the idiot that made this happen was in a morphine induced, self inflicted coma. Brought the candle back to get another one- as he thought that it was made faulty. Indicating that he is a complete moron! Why would you want another candle?He bought my candle in one of my CA stores. Took it home and burned it for 13 straight hours. Double wicked, HEAVY glass. So, your fear is legitimate. I sold well over a thousand of these candles with no complaints of any kind or damages incurred.It wasn't the jar or the wicking. It was the irresponsibility of the end consumer. As we all well know, most people DO NOT read warning labels or instructions. Right after that isolated incident, I pulled all those containers out of my stores (this wasn't cheap, let me tell you) and created a similiar design with a different jar in the same capacity. I had to fight with some of my wholesalers as they thought this was completely insane, and they thought I was wasting alot of my money. But my peace of mind carries no price.So this is now my rule of thumb. It doesn't involve any thermometer.I test burn every single container I sell in the bathtub. For HOURS on end. Single wicked, double wicked what have you. I also check the sides of the containers with my fingers, towards the bottom of course. If they are so hot they burn me, the candle container is done. This will hopefully never happen again. My variances in torture testing took on a whole new light after that incident. And he is still my biggest wholesale account. The customer that bought the candle that exploded still to this day would like to buy one of my candles. (yes, he is an idiot) But he is barred from buying my line in that store directly. Since I give all my wholesale accounts 50 mile radius exculsivity, I am thinking the issue is solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandleCouture Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 That's pretty terrible. What kind of a moron burns a candle for 13 straight hours? I guess one like that does...Either way, I agree...testing under MUCH less than optimal conditions is the absolute way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystical_angel1219 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Well- he is a true moron. But it is a good reminder. You can never do enough testing in substandard conditions, as you agreed with me. I post this story once in a while, so others don't get a false sense of security. It can happen. The end user can do a plethora of things to alter the state of a candle. They can and will.This was a very expensive incident for me.I picked up cases of candles all over the country with RMA's and then reshipped new replacement candles. I blatantly refused to let them just throw them in the garbage, for fear that someone would get one and burn it. A few of my accounts thought I was being overly cautious. But as I stated before, my peace of mind knows no price tag.Edited to add as a General Announcement.This is why people often state strongly that you MUST test endlessly before selling.Also, product liability insurance is a MUST. Do you want to lose everything you own, and possibly have you earnings garnished because some customer misused your product? Oh, hell no. Think before selling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharyl55 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 And that is why my final container test is a marathon 10 hr burn. Maybe I need to increase that to 12 hrs. I've had too many folks tell me they light their containers 1st thing in the morning and let them burn all day. Gosh! Makes you want to go with wickless candles and candle warmers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest highflier Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I think you are getting over techincal. By using the right wicks, you shouldnt have any problems. I would like to know the difference in a Petro vs Soy vs Parasoy. The reason being is that I NEVER heard of a soy candle FLARING up possibly causing a fire and I have had this happen with a Parafin and so have family members.Can anyone here tell me what would cause a candle to caught of fire. I know if you use to much fo that would cause problems. But that is the only one I know of. I have had a customer that left a candle buring at working on a Friday afternoon and the cleaning crew came in on Sat. and seen the candle and blew it out. It had been buring for 18 straight hours. She wiped the soot off the container Monday and kept right on burning it. I also had a friend that lit one in the evening and forgot to blow it out when he went to bed. The next day when he came home from work he saw the candle was still lit. It had burned for almost 24 hours.People will do some stupid things. I am in the process of putting a clear label with black lettering that says " This is a highly scented candle. Keep wicks trimmed to 1/4" before each lighting. Read warning label on bottom!! Maybe then they will know there is a warning label on the candle. I have had so many people tell me they did not know there was a warning label on a candle.Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Hopefully someone with firsthand experience will chime in. I've never had it happen to me but of course I've heard the reports of it. Anyone who has done polarity testing of fragrance oils for gel has probably noticed that when components separate they typically sink to the bottom. I've always assumed that under some circumstances you get an increasing concentration of FO components as the candle burns down, and since it normally burns hottest at the bottom sometimes the mixture can ignite. That's what I imagine is happening anyway.Someone here reported a flashover on the very first burn, causing a sterno type flame on top of the candle, with no visible oil separation. There are so many different components that can be in these fragrance oils and they differ in solubility, volatility, and flammability. I guess you can get all sorts of scenarios.Thankfully the fires don't happen that often but it pays to design thoughtfully and test thoroughly. I know people think the big companies are sometimes too cheap to soak the wax with fragrance oil as some people like to do, but maybe they know something from their testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlewitch Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I know people think the big companies are sometimes too cheap to soak the wax with fragrance oil as some people like to do, but maybe they know something from their testing. No. This is just counting pennies and turning them to dollars. The term is Beancounters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 No. This is just counting pennies and turning them to dollars. The term is Beancounters.I'm sure that's often true, but there are always some entreprenuerial companies coming on the scene with a vision of a quality product. Those companies aren't driven by beancounting. Market share is worth dollars rather than pennies so companies are happy to even lose money for a while to get it.So let's take that scenario for a moment. What many crafters probably think they'd do in those shoes is use the old "wow them with fragrance oil" trick. Then you run up against the realities. You have to ship candles around the country in all weather conditions and climates. You can't have them melting, you can't have them bleeding fragrance, you can't have them catching fire even once in a while if you're selling a lot of them.There are always freak events, but how often is acceptable? Probably one out of a thousand candles catching fire is NOT acceptable but most people here won't be able to eliminate a 1/1000 possibility no matter how much testing and marathon burning they do. It's hard to anticipate the exact circumstances under which it happens.Someone posted on the Bitter Creek board not long ago about a few reports of her candles catching fire. She was very knowledgable. Spoke intelligently about how her candles were formulated, produced and tested. She seemed very thorough, knew what she was talking about and had a conservatively wicked product.For practical purposes, all she could really do was decrease the fragrance loading across the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugtussle Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I have posted on BC board about candle tins catcing fire, 6 oz tins, burning 8 hours, occurs in last 1/3 of candle. I do wick conservatively, but 2 of my customers (one being my daughter) just marathon burns and she caught one on fire. It was the wax burning, the FO had long since departed. Another customer (store owner) lit a candle in the morning and let it go. Late that afternoon, it caught fire. I duplicated the phenomenon by burning tins in my fireplace where they could do no harm. It took a while, but I finally caught a couple on fire. The wax (both 223 & 6006) caught fire and burned themselves out. When wax gets hot enough, it will ignite. Need to do some more fireplace tests with my tureens. See if the wax will ignite in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlewitch Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Market share is worth dollars rather than pennies so companies are happy to even lose money for a while to get it. I wasn't talking about dumping product for marketshare. That is another topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlewitch Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 You have to ship candles around the country in all weather conditions and climates. You can't have them melting, you can't have them bleeding fragrance Nothing to argue there. . That is why I wont ship Below 38* or over 90* The 38* will go lower once a better soy comes out. Just waiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlewitch Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Free heat gun to new accts to upkeep candles in rough weather conditions. Anything is possible if worded correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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