Re-Lighting Issues/Question

[wthomas57]

Hey all, I have been doing some more recent experimenting outside my normal line.

I have been working on trying to get wicks in certain jars (namely apothecary) to self trim entirely. No mushroom, wick burns completely and stays a constant

1/4" roughly. I have been able to do with two waxes: 6006 and 2530 mottling wax. I can get a good melt pool and completely self trimming.

 

Now here is where I'd like some input. So.. EVEN though the wick doesn't need to be trimmed, when I relight it.. it acts like a wick that needs trimmed before 

being re-lit. It smokes and soots for a good few minutes before settling down. And I dont mean just a little wild flame. I mean...  smokes and soots a lot. Just as

if I were to have re-lit a candle that had a mushroom on it without trimming it first.

 

So... what the heck? Its already trimmed, I cant really trim it more... maybe a tad I guess. Anyone ever dealt with the smoking and sooting after relighting like this?

Not sure the point of a self trimming wick whether it completely self trims or just curls..... if its going to smoke and soot anyway?

 

Thoughts, tips, suggestions?

 

Thanks everyone.

[PhoenixFyre]

Yep, I've had that same thing happen. I work with different paraffins and blends of them and mostly with HTP wicks. I've tried many -- LX, zinc, Premiers, CD, ECO, RRD, and others -- and keep coming back to the HTPs. Guess I'm determined to make them work, lol. But, yes, I can get a candle wicked with an HTP, no mushroom, no soot, getting a full mp, and seems to be trimming itself nicely...and sometimes when I'd light it, whoa mama. For the first minute or two, the flame is tall (over an inch, under 2 inches, too tall for my comfort) and black smoke in a steady stream shoots straight up off the top of the flame. I'd sit and stare and scratch my head wondering why the heck it did that because there was no mushroom, the wick wasn't over 1/4 inch when I lit it, etc. But after a minute or so, it stops, the flame settles to a comfortable height, and no more soot/smoke. Then it just burns nicely as usual.

 

Wish I could tell you why it happens. I'm not sure myself. I didn't take good enough notes to know when exactly it happened -- how many times, what waxes, temp of the room, fans on or off, Venus aligned with Mars, etc. -- but I know it did happen. I've actually started trying out double wicking instead of just using one wick. I use the 11.5-oz, 3"-diameter, straight-sided tumblers, and I'm trying it because of this very issue. I've been using the smallest available HTPs, 31s, and I tried the 41s. The 41s got too hot, but so far the 31s are working nicely...and haven't seen the soot/flame issue yet. But I just started experimenting with them...so we'll see.

[wthomas57]

Ha. Wow.... I felt like I just read my own journal entry for candle notes reading your reply.

 

.... black stream of smoke going straight up... YES!

.... stops after a couple minutes at most (generally)

I've also tried several wicks... I get the same results virtually with most of them in regards to burning finer until re-lighting.

Eco and HTP seem to burn almost identical for me. I like LX as well. I like zincs except too wide of jars, then they aren't hot enough (plus mushrooming).

 

What really stinks about this is.... if all the soot and smoke comes from simply relighting for a minute or two... it makes the entire jar look bad. It burns great 95% of the time. But that other small amount of time leads to way too much soot! So, what do we do? Because I know for a FACT that most customers don't trim... ESPECIALLY when it doesn't look like it needs it, know what I mean?

 

I have ALSO tried double wicking which has some good benefits, like quicker melt pool, smaller flames, even great burn, less smoke in general. However... when it comes to relighting.. they do the same damn thing (except twice as much. HA!)

 

So do you feel comfortable selling them like this? I mean, they do burn great! Its just the minute after relighting.

Sure, we can remind customers until we are out of breath about trimming. But they usually wont anyway, and we dont always see many of our customers face to face anyway.

 

How have you handled this?

 

Here are my thoughts on why its happening:

 

1) FO seeping on top

 

2) The burnt/ashy part of the wick isn't trimmed and will act like a small carbon ball on top when lit. So it could be the very fact that just the tiny tip of the wick needs trimmed off and would prevent this.

 

 

[PhoenixFyre]

I don't sell yet...I'm my own worst critic (I think like most of us are) and I refuse to sell anything until I have it gosh darn perfect (or near enough). But I can understand the concern about what to tell a customer. I don't know if it would bother many customers considering how many brands of candles out there smoke and soot like chimneys and still seem to be popular...but it bothers ME, and if it bothers me, then I'm not content.

 

That's why I started the double wick testing. I'm bummed to hear that it didn't work out for you. Like I said, I've just started this testing (literally in the middle of my first double-wick tests with three different fragrances), and so far haven't seen it. All of the re-lights so far have been nice flames and no soot/smoke. Hoping it stays that way, lol.

 

If you've had it happen with other wicks, then I guess that rules out that it's just HTPs. FO seepage...I wonder. I don't go above 7% with any fragrance, usually hovering between 6-7%, which is well within the max FO load of the waxes I use. Burnt part of the wick...makes more sense to me that that could be the culprit. But like you mentioned before, how do you trim a wick that is already short, and is a customer going to take the time to trim that bit of burnt wick off to prevent that initial tall flame and soot despite how many times you remind them to trim (and doesn't that defeat the purpose of what we're trying to accomplish in wicking the candle to burn wonderfully and self trim)?

 

But it's still worth testing out. What can be done if it's FO seepage? I don't know. For the trimming issue, I may go and make a few testers to test for this specifically. I usually test my candles without trimming because it's how I assume the customers will do it, but I should try a few and make sure to faithfully trim them each and every test and see what happens.

[wthomas57]

50 minutes ago, PhoenixFyre said:

I don't sell yet...I'm my own worst critic (I think like most of us are) and I refuse to sell anything until I have it gosh darn perfect (or near enough). But I can understand the concern about what to tell a customer. I don't know if it would bother many customers considering how many brands of candles out there smoke and soot like chimneys and still seem to be popular...but it bothers ME, and if it bothers me, then I'm not content.

 

I used to agree with this, but honestly these days most candles off the shelf at any store burn just fine.

 

50 minutes ago, PhoenixFyre said:

That's why I started the double wick testing. I'm bummed to hear that it didn't work out for you. Like I said, I've just started this testing (literally in the middle of my first double-wick tests with three different fragrances), and so far haven't seen it. All of the re-lights so far have been nice flames and no soot/smoke. Hoping it stays that way, lol.

 

The double wick works fine most of the time. BUT, when it smokes.. its worse because there is two. And the jars get much hotter. Its a toss up for me right now between single and double wick

 

51 minutes ago, PhoenixFyre said:

If you've had it happen with other wicks, then I guess that rules out that it's just HTPs. FO seepage...I wonder. I don't go above 7% with any fragrance, usually hovering between 6-7%, which is well within the max FO load of the waxes I use. Burnt part of the wick...makes more sense to me that that could be the culprit. But like you mentioned before, how do you trim a wick that is already short, and is a customer going to take the time to trim that bit of burnt wick off to prevent that initial tall flame and soot despite how many times you remind them to trim (and doesn't that defeat the purpose of what we're trying to accomplish in wicking the candle to burn wonderfully and self trim)?

 

So, I should have clarified. The wax I am experimenting with is a mottling wax which generally only holds 3-5%. I am using a special vybar that doesn't affect mottling to increase the load to about 6%. Which is working fine. However... mottling wax does occasionally seep a bit if its not done correctly. I thought it could be a culprit. But thought it was less likely. Especially now knowing you dont have seepage and have the same issue.

 

And yes, I definitely agree.... having to still trim to prevent this problem defeats the entire purpose we are aiming for.

 

 

Ugh. Aggrivating! 

 

By the way, which wicks are you using so far with good results double wicking?

[PhoenixFyre]

So far the only wicks I'm testing with the double wick is HTP 31 and 41. I've got two testers in the same fragrance, one with the 31s and the other with the 41s, and the 41s get too hot in the jar and have started to lean close to the glass. The one with the two 31s is down to about halfway through the container, and so far not a single issue. I'm starting testing on two more fragrances today, both with two 31s, so I guess I'll see how it goes.

[wthomas57]

That is my issue with HTPs in general, is the leaning over 

[wthomas57]

Hey Phoenix,

 

In your testing with the virtually self trimming double wicking..... have noticed the wicks almost stay.. too short? At first, it seemed great. But on a few I noticed the black carbon on the wick that it gets while burning has actually started seeping pretty heavily back into the wax pool. Not because of a mushroom or trimmings falling the wax, but just that the wick is burnind down so quickly that the black part gets beneath the top of the melt pool and its spreads through the liquid wax. Only noticed on light colored candles. But its odd because its burning perfectly. You experienced this? Thoughts? Suggestions?

[PhoenixFyre]

I haven't come across that yet. Wish I had a suggestion for you, but I'm not sure what would cause that to happen. So far, I've been very pleased with the three fragrances I've tested with the double wicks (wait, gotta find my wood and knock on it). The wicks thus far have stayed very near the 1/4-inch mark without trimming and haven't gone too short or too tall.

 

On one fragrance, I got one little tiny mushroom on one wick so far, but I did have the fans and AC going while testing, so I expected it. I plucked off the little guy and continued testing. On another fragrance, both wicks got tiny little mushrooms...again, due to fans/AC. This time, I lit them with the mushrooms still on just to see what happened. Got the tall flame and soot from one of the wicks for literally 2 seconds, and then it calmed right down and both continued to burn just fine. My first double-wick tester is a little below half the container, and so far no mushrooms, no soot, no tall flames, jar doesn't get overly hot, and nice throw. So far, the testing is encouraging...but anything can still happen so I'll keep going to see.

[wthomas57]

I think we are both pretty close to the same results... although I think a bit different simply due to different waxes. I am using 2530 mottling wax.

All my other candles are a parasoy blend. But in these large apothecarys I have found a couple good options (both were double wicks). The zincs did ok, except after several burns the wire would start to stay exposed out the top. Other than that... they were the best.

 

I also am having overall success with LX16 (double wicked again). But.... on a few, they have led to what i referred to in my last post. Its almost a bit.. too small... when burning.

But, wicking up doesn't really help, plus burns faster and relighting leads to wilder flames for longer.

 

I tried HTP based off your suggestion... and didn't go well. Either so tiny it drowned, or it was a little crazy if too big. I am about to try and single wick with CD even though I hat those wicks. Just doing it based off a suggestion.

 

Just wish I could find a happy medium between flames too small/nearly drowning and too big so that it soots and is wild when relit. I LOVE not having to trim these things so want to keep it that way. Plus these candles look amazing. Need them to work.

[PhoenixFyre]

I feel your struggle, lol.

 

I've only ever worked with paraffin and have worked with mottling paraffin for pillars but not yet for containers. Right now I'm working with 4630 and blends with 4630. I hear you on CD wicks...can't stand them either. They always had large flames, always sooted like crazy, and got huge mushrooms no matter which paraffin I used them with. LXs...never felt like I got a good enough throw from them and they sooted a lot. Zincs...have tried them but can't stand the mushrooms or the core that sticks up when you don't have a mushroom, lol. HTPs have always worked the best for me, but like you said, it's that happy medium I need to find. Even with the selection of HTPs, I always found myself needed something in the middle of what I had when using just a single wick - hence, the double wick testing.

[wthomas57]

The lean of the HTPs kills me. Always starts leaning one way and gets uneven but also flat out dangerous when it leans to far.

Other than that... I agree.. I like the way they burn. Just too flimsy for me.   I guess I have never noticed any lack of throw using LX.  

To be honest... I've enver really understand the "throw difference with different wicks" argument. The scent throw comes from the melt pool....

so if you get a melt pool... I cant imagine how wicks would make a difference. I mean heck... wax melts have no wick at all, lol. Some people

say that certain wicks dont throw as well because they dont burn hot enough. To me, that also makes no sense because nearly everyone says that "zincs

give the best throw" yet they burn the coolest. So... I guess I dont follow any of the 'wick and throw' logic. Maybe I am missing something.

 

Anyway, have you tried Premiers, RRD, or ECOs?

 

Premiers - remind me of a mix between zinc and lx. sturdy like zinc but without the wire, burn similar but more soot. but various sizes

RRD - I only have a test pack so haven't been able to test them much yet.

ECOs - Sometimes amazing.... sometimes terrible

[TallTayl]

I disagree about the melt pool being the only factor related to scent throw. The ht comes from the wick being able to launch that fragrance and Wax into the air efficiently. air currents in the jar play a very big part. Single wicked soy Candles I burn in a square glass mason with very little MP can throw like gangbusters.

 

As for wax melters, Different wax melter styles perform very differently with the same wax melt. The temps differ enough to make a wax melt either fill a room with scent or not throw at all. I have a zillion experiments under my belt to attest to that. The waxes in the melt change the throw tremendously also. ask justajesuschick as she and I followed a similar wax melt learning curve. Our successes with our very different waxes were very well earned.

 

One of the strongest throwing candles I have ever made was with glass glow palm at 3% FO load in an 8oz status jar. It had virtually NO melt pool to speak of. The wax just wept into the flame and was ejected into the air. It burned cleanly and absolutely beautifully.  HT was strong enough to fill my long, long ranch house from the furthest bedroom. A tea light made of the same wax and 3% scent was too strong in my kitchen and had to be put outside.

[wthomas57]

I guess I dont follow.... not disagreeing, just not following. Fragrance isn't released through the wick (at least that is what I've always heard, read, and understood. Fragrance is released from the pool.... so not sure I am understanding. Wax melts release fragrance like champs... no wicks. And again, not disagreeing. I just haven't noticed a difference in scent throw from different wicks in the same jar with the same wax with the same FO. Different jar types... DEFINITELY.  My little glass masons throw like a champ regardless. Where as my tumblers not as well even though they are bigger. But Im not using different wicks in there. I think its more to do with the MP, the depth, air circulation, etc.

 

Obviously, with some much mention of different wicks having better "throw", there must be something to it. I just dont cant comprehend what it is, when all the same information says the fragrance isn't released through the wick. I also haven't noticed a different really. If there is one, it hasn't been something I detect anyway.

 

And yes, I know different wax melts perform better than others... usually due to how much heat or size of MP when comparing same FOs anyway. My melts throw and perform great after I've done years of testing and tweaking on them. 

 

To be honest, I guess i just WISH wicks werent affecting throw much as its just yet ANOTHER thing to consider when choosing wicks. Which is hard enough as is. Id prefer to simply go with the wick that burns the best with least amount of issues. If that means a tiny variation in scent throw... then I guess so be it.

 

 

[TallTayl]

Wicks combust the material they are lit in otherwise the wax would never be consumed. The rate of combustion, heat of that combustion etc. all affect the throw and overall burn. Soot, mushrooms, etc are all results of incomplete combustion indicating a poor choice of wick, or otherwise less than ideally designed candle. 

 

we all notice how fragrance in a wax melt is vastly different from scent thrown from a candle. That combustion changes the scent as the chemicals react and are consumed along with the wax.

 

To me, an ideal candle would be wicked to strike a balance, and consume the wax & fragrance as it melts so there would be little to no melt pool. Some of my favorite paraffin candles had a teeny tiny wick, no melt pool, yet threw far better than these newer deep mP candles. With the deeper and bigger melt pools I usually smell more wax than fragrance. 

 

i honestly think the trend toward huge and deep MP is a result of people not being able to achieve a great candle with minimal mp. Soy waxes are "heavy" and need a big boost to get up into he air as compared to lighter, less viscous paraffins. But it is not impossible with soy. I have several soy candles from board members here that are super conservatively wicked producing melt pools less than 1/4 inch deep x 3" across that blow the doors off of "hotter" wicked candles. They smell fantastic from start to end.

 

 

[PhoenixFyre]

Yep, I have tried Premiers, ECOs, and RRDs. ECOs...I forget off-hand why they didn't work, but they didn't burn right in my system. I'd have to check my notes. Premiers, sooted like crazy. RRDs...now THESE were the leaners for me, lol. No matter how many times I tried, they ended up leaning almost right up against the tumbler. Couldn't get them to work.

 

Thanks, @TallTayl, for your input. I can't explain any better than TallTayl did about why the wick seems to play a role in HT, but that's just what I've experienced. Even now, I have a tester with double HTP 31s and another with a cotton core. Same wax, same fragrance, same dye, same container, same everything except the wick. Have tried them in the same room under the same (or as close as possible to the same) conditions. They even get the same-sized melt pool, but for some reason the HTPs fill the room whereas the cotton core does not.

 

1 minute ago, TallTayl said:

i honestly think the trend toward huge and deep MP is a result of people not being able to achieve a great candle with minimal mp.

 

Or even because some people (sheepishly raising my hand here) don't realize that this is possible and so they don't test for it. It never dawned on me, until you just said it, that you could have a minimal mp and still get a great throw because it seems most discussions revolve around melt pool. I've never tried for the deep melt pools because they always made me nervous and caused my wicks to lean, but it never occurred to me that a shallow melt pool could still give terrific throw. I feel more testing coming on in my future.

[TallTayl]

Those different wicks you listed Phoenix are all like different sized drinking straws, right? Some straws are easier to draw through than others.

 

Likewise, some wick materials burn hotter than others, creating more energy to lift that wax and scent to launch it into the air. Wicks and waxes need balance to create the efficient energy so we smell a beautiful candle. 

 

It takes the right amount of energy to get the smellies from a candle into the air. people get there in different ways.

[wthomas57]

Agreed..... but again, that part that always has seemed so contradictory to me is this:

 

9 out of 10 say zinc wicks throw the best. Yet, they burn the coolest. So all the talk about enough heat to whip the fragrance in 

the air doesn't seem to add up. not to mention, zincs are bad about complete combustion and even clogging.... but again, somehow still arguably

throw the best. I guess, from everything I have heard is that peoples results and their facts dont seem to add up. So, I just try to wick for the best burn I can

and the scent seems to be fine either way (regardless of wick type) if its wicked correctly.

[TallTayl]

I have only begun testing zinc wicks, so all I read has been anecdotal. I do not believe anyone's opinion until I see and test for myself. Quite a few stories became rules of law because nobody had access to other types, KwIM?

 

 The carbon build up on zinc has me not wanting to even try.

 

It is not only a matter of heat, but the right amount of heat for the wax it is used in. As you know, not all paraffin waxes available retail are the same. Additives change the burn dramatically. Have started testing and burning 4786 and let me tell you it does NoT live up to the hype so far. Also testing 4630. Moving on to 415 in soy. 

 

As as far as throw, nothing beats Palm waxes in my book. But I dislike making them as the wax is so finicky to cool without holes. 

[wthomas57]

 

the carbon buildup on zincs for me is not worse than many others. Like you have been saying... its about all wicking correctly. If you do, its minimal.

And the rigidity of them is priceless. Perfect even burns all the time. And burn cooler. They are fantastic. The only.. ONLY reason I even try others

to to phase out the wire and any misconceptions people get about them. Some people still think its lead (so I hear). Other than that... love them.

But its about application. They dont work in everything. 

[moonshine]

17 hours ago, TallTayl said:

I disagree about the melt pool being the only factor related to scent throw. The ht comes from the wick being able to launch that fragrance and Wax into the air efficiently. air currents in the jar play a very big part. Single wicked soy Candles I burn in a square glass mason with very little MP can throw like gangbusters.

 

As for wax melters, Different wax melter styles perform very differently with the same wax melt. The temps differ enough to make a wax melt either fill a room with scent or not throw at all. I have a zillion experiments under my belt to attest to that. The waxes in the melt change the throw tremendously also. ask justajesuschick as she and I followed a similar wax melt learning curve. Our successes with our very different waxes were very well earned.

 

One of the strongest throwing candles I have ever made was with glass glow palm at 3% FO load in an 8oz status jar. It had virtually NO melt pool to speak of. The wax just wept into the flame and was ejected into the air. It burned cleanly and absolutely beautifully.  HT was strong enough to fill my long, long ranch house from the furthest bedroom. A tea light made of the same wax and 3% scent was too strong in my kitchen and had to be put outside.

I 100% agree with this and couldn't of said it better myself if I tried 

My experience through the many years of doing this is melt pool does NOT entirely define the throw of a candle, the wick has a huge impact on this and TT's analogy of comparing wicks to straws is brilliant, I will attach a picture of one of my candles that has been burning for 1 hour- the melt pool is hardly there but I can smell it from my laundry room to the back bedroom in a 1700 sq ft ranch with cathedral ceilings and open floor plan with the AC on, fans blowing and a air purifier and dehumidifier running 

I also have been playing with the 2 ounce shot Mason jars and so far the ones I have tested the melt pool is so little but the throw is crazy strong but when it gets down to half the wicks are too hot for my comfort, back to the drawing board on these ones for me 

Also, same wax, same jars different wicks produce different throw results for me in the extreme so based on my tests I have done I have to believe wick does play part in Scent disbursement, not the melt pool and I agree as well with the wax melters, they all vary 

the problems your having with the soot and flame shooting up I would have say your over wicked, this has happened to me many of times and even though it settles and burns good going down a size fixed that problem and still had excellent throw -but I work mainly with straight soy, so I am Not for sure this is the same for you 

 

[moonshine]

7 hours ago, wthomas57 said:

Agreed..... but again, that part that always has seemed so contradictory to me is this:

 

9 out of 10 say zinc wicks throw the best. Yet, they burn the coolest. So all the talk about enough heat to whip the fragrance in 

the air doesn't seem to add up. not to mention, zincs are bad about complete combustion and even clogging.... but again, somehow still arguably

throw the best. I guess, from everything I have heard is that peoples results and their facts dont seem to add up. So, I just try to wick for the best burn I can

and the scent seems to be fine either way (regardless of wick type) if its wicked correctly.

Out of all the wick series out there zinc along with CSN are the ones I never touched so I can't comment on them throwing the best, however out of the ones I have tried I feel CD series throw the best and they are thought to be the coolest burning in soy wax compared to LX-ECO-HTP and premier so in my application it does hold true and I also don't think it's the amount of heat itself whipping the fragrance up into the air that gives us throw because if that were true I wouldnt be getting the throw I do in the ones have a very little melt pool

I believe it's a combination And that is the most challenging and frustrating part of making a great candle 

all we can do is wick for the best burn and throw possible but those results also vary in opinion from one person to another 

I used to make mine for really deep melt pools, kinda like partylite to liquify in a matter of hours and burn the glass clean but I now I am trying to wick for smaller pools which doesn't always happen but I personally feel they do throw better 

[wthomas57]

Not sure if smaller melt pools throw better..... but they scent sure does last longer! And that is why i try to keep my MPs less than 1/4".

However, I do have some candles, specifically ones that are double wicked that will get between 1/2" and full inch if left burning 4-6 hours.

Wasn't by design, just a result of the best wicks for it led to that result. Which I am ok with, because they burn great.

 

6 hours ago, moonshine said:

the problems your having with the soot and flame shooting up I would have say your over wicked, this has happened to me many of times and even though it settles and burns good going down a size fixed that problem and still had excellent throw -but I work mainly with straight soy, so I am Not for sure this is the same for you 

 

 

In regards to this.. I think we got a bit derailed here. I dont have issues with soot and/or flames shooting up on my candles. At all. I was referring to some experimenting I was doing similar to what Phoenix was doing were we were keeping wicks self trimmed while burning and NEVER trimming ourselves to see the results. We would notice upon relighting, that even though the wicks were not tall at all, they would still puff and go a bit crazy for a minute before settling down. Its a result of not trimming which we knew and were experimenting. Its definitely not a result of being overwicked. If we wicked down any further, they would drown. 

 

But anyway, thanks everyone for the input!