Really Handmade or Big Business?

[jackbenimble]

I am posting this from another board because I find it very interesting and also because I said I would ask my fellow handmade candle and soap friends. Love to hear what your opinions are.

So my friend thinks that some (not all) people in wax groups and other groups on Facebook are actually secret reps for bigger companies that market their stuff as if it is handmade/small business as a marketing strategy. I told him he is being paranoid and he insists that this is a real thing companies are doing now and that I am being naive.

I explained that some people are reps for companies like Avon or Scentsy but that it is no secret but he still insists and says I can't know for sure that I am buying handmade/independent.

Have any of you heard of something like this happening?!

[TallTayl]

I have read/heard similar. It is not surprising - there is a lot of interest (read earning potential) in 'hand made' goods. Heck, when hand made greeting cards were all the rage a few years ago even Wally World had them. Whose hands 'handmade' those cards is the question...

Had a good laugh not long ago when I read tips from 'pros' for ways to make commercially made items look more home made using photography strategies of blurry, poorly lit photos, etc. Loads of 'handmade' items on etsy are made by commercial importers and resellers. Where there is money, there will be makers.

[Dolphin146]

It would not surprise me If big companies are doing this. More and more people are buying handmade candles and melts. So they figure why not jump on the band wagon. So companies are tring to make there goods look more handmade. Even though they are machine made. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between them. I think it is really shitty companies are doing this It makes the real handmade sellers look bad when the product really stinks and it is hard to tell what is really handmade or not.

[Chefmom]

I think it's pretty obvious. When you are a company that needs to keep coming up with new ideas etc you H*A*V*E to have your eyes on the needs, wants and desires of the population. It's just way easier than it used to be with the social media out there.

Spend one week on all the different forms of social media and you can easily sum up the pulse of those age demographics. What colors catch their eyes, what kinds of foods, slow cooking, fast cooking, music trends, clothing style trends, what are people drinking and what people think is "cheap" and "luxury". Computers make fast work of this marketing tool and naturally people who work for these mega corporations are info mining.

Heck, info mining is done everywhere now. Stores have trained us to use the little card to get the sales, or to add up points. All that info is gathered and studied and some companies then sell it to others for their market research. Every online transaction is counted by someone, somewhere and that info is going into data bases for anyone who wants it.

Many years ago, when I first found message boards I would frequent cooking and baking feeds. I was generous with ideas and recipes. Then I had someone steal some personal recipes and I became more suspicious. I remember reading on the Martha St*wart message forums that everything you post, every idea, every recipe etc was the sole property of her company. I stopped posting there, I didn't want to feed every idea I had for her to make money.

Business 101. Know your customer, know your market, know your competitor.

[emilyspoppy]

That seals it for me!

No more posts from me!

Good-bye all !!!

Dave

[marcuset]

Yep. Agreed. Great place for friendly chat...but not a great place to share business ideas. So many of us have seen it come back to bite us. Ah well. Fun while it lasted & met some great folks.

Edited May 7, 2013 by marcuset

[PeggyK]

Wow, I find that interesting and entirely plausible!

I don't understand Dave's farewell post, but I totally relate to Chefmom's post about sharing recipes on Message Boards. I was into that on the old AOL message boards of the late 1990s, it was fun, but I ended up seeing so much stolen verbatim and made into recipe books that others sold. Sad.

Anyway, this spying/stalking/imposter thing is also one of the big reasons I am so leary of making a Facebook fan/business page.

I am posting this from another board because I find it very interesting and also because I said I would ask my fellow handmade candle and soap friends. Love to hear what your opinions are.

So my friend thinks that some (not all) people in wax groups and other groups on Facebook are actually secret reps for bigger companies that market their stuff as if it is handmade/small business as a marketing strategy. I told him he is being paranoid and he insists that this is a real thing companies are doing now and that I am being naive.

I explained that some people are reps for companies like Avon or Scentsy but that it is no secret but he still insists and says I can't know for sure that I am buying handmade/independent.

Have any of you heard of something like this happening?!

[justajesuschick]

I guess how the thread has turned I must not understand what you are asking. I thought you meant your friend thought big companies (I think big corporations) sent secret reps into small candle groups such as the Facebook wax melter groups selling product like they were you and me.

[iansmommaya]

I cannot speak to scentsy or avon, but I do know of a big candle company that has an account to post with on forums like this one. They pretty much come to forums like this and pokes around for new ideas.

Edited May 8, 2013 by iansmommaya

[PeggyK]

I guess how the thread has turned I must not understand what you are asking. I thought you meant your friend thought big companies (I think big corporations) sent secret reps into small candle groups such as the Facebook wax melter groups selling product like they were you and me.

OK, I see now. The end customer is being duped by the big companies, who are selling under the guise of a small/independent business.

I wonder how much they charge as the independent business, compared to what they charge as the big company ...

[justajesuschick]

OK, I see now. The end customer is being duped by the big companies, who are selling under the guise of a small/independent business.

I wonder how much they charge as the independent business, compared to what they charge as the big company ...

Well, that is what I thought but with all of the farewells, I must not understand what JBN was saying/asking.

It is not just this forum or Facebook. I think people do not really understand the phenomena known as the online or digital "tattoo". Once it is there, it is there.

One could Google their own business name or the business names of many here and read things about the business and even things such as supplier reviews well beyond this forum.

[marcuset]

Well, that is what I thought but with all of the farewells, I must not understand what JBN was saying/asking.

It is not just this forum or Facebook. I think people do not really understand the phenomena known as the online or digital "tattoo". Once it is there, it is there.

One could Google their own business name or the business names of many here and read things about the business and even things such as supplier reviews well beyond this forum.

Very good point, Justa & this thread was a much needed reminder not to add more hard earned info is all - it's awfully tempting when at times, it's easy to forget the huge audience of this site in general. Many folks come here just to learn a hobby, but the reality is it's also a big business tool. Much info already here permanently - you are right.

[craftsbychris]

I read it as Dave was joking.

[emilyspoppy]

I read it as Dave was joking.

Close, but switch the word, "joking" to the phrase, "just making a point" and Chris hit it very hard on the head of the nail.

SHHHH! Big brother is watching!. . . So are a whole lot of suppliers that we like to "rag on", too!

JMO

"Sneaky Dave" :whistle:

[marcuset]

SHHHH! Big brother is watching!. . . So are a whole lot of suppliers that we like to "rag on", too!

JMO

"Sneaky Dave" :whistle:

You sure got that right. TY Jackbenimble for just reminding us to be a bit more cautious. This site is an invaluable resource...not just for us ;-)

[PeggyK]

Hm. Now I think I am even more confused! LOL.

Who cares if a supplier reads about various complaints (slow shipping, no contact, weak FOs, what-have-you). I would hope they do (and I have even asked suppliers to come here and read the complaints, in order for them to improve!)

Anyway, in reading the original post - I do see that we went way off the point...

Luckily I don't buy candles (since I make my own) and I know they are created in a kitchen

[marcuset]

I don't think it's way off track, Peggy. This site is a goldmine for infomining (if that's what it's called) - just like FB or other craft groups. Just being careful about the info you give out is smart business.

Edited May 8, 2013 by marcuset

[justajesuschick]

Hm. Now I think I am even more confused! LOL.

Who cares if a supplier reads about various complaints (slow shipping, no contact, weak FOs, what-have-you). I would hope they do (and I have even asked suppliers to come here and read the complaints, in order for them to improve!)

Anyway, in reading the original post - I do see that we went way off the point...

This is what I was trying to say. I STILL think that JBN was asking if we knew or or heard of some selling "handmade" products that are commercially made but positioned to look home or handmade. Which I have not. I did not get that he was asking about people seeking information from the Facebook groups and forums.

I do see some here tiptoe about a supplier by saying things like, "the supplier with the poor service has a company name that begins with X" and I wonder why. I chalked it up to so many being on forums/boards where it was only permitted to speak about that particular supplier.

[PeggyK]

Yes, that is true. I remember someone asked for our Top Suppliers list and I freely gave it up!

[justajesuschick]

This site is a goldmine for infomining (if that's what it's called) - just like FB or other craft groups.

I certainly do not disagree. I just wish JBN would come back and explain what he was really asking/pondering/discussing with his friend.

[marcuset]

JBN is a stinker :-) (just kidding JBN). He is a pro at listing these hot button topics. Makes for an interesting discussion. I know what Justa & Peggy are saying & I do agree with you ladies. I guess I went the route of the warning of caution for giving info. I know that type of thing JBN was talking about is not made up, unfortunately.

Edited May 8, 2013 by marcuset

[emilyspoppy]

I'm a bit surprised that this thread appears to be "confusing" to some.

I believe I understand what Paul (JBN) was asking. I also feel like he states, that it would be a bit paranoid to think that the mass marketers would be interested in creating a phony "home-made" candle or B&B line.

How would they market it outside of a website. Would the people who make the decisions at Walmart really think that because they put a label on their made in China candles that says "Susie's Homemade Candles" customers are going to pay a premium because they think they were made in a kitchen rather than a factory? (More on this below.)

I believe there is NO DOUBT that large companies are monitoring this and other sites for information, however. I can easily imagine a weekly board meeting at YC where the person in charge asks for the weekly report from his internet spy(s). I'm sure they would have a more professional title, though.

In my IMAGINATION I can see them not only discussing trends and opinions that we and others put out there for the world to read, but also I believe they STEAL our IDEAS and RECIPES on virtually anything that could be useful to them. Paranoid? Maybe; But I'll give you odds if you want to gamble that I'm wrong.

As far as our discussing other companies, I try to always keep the thought in the back of my mind what can be considered liableous (sp?) when I post on a company's products or reputation. Paranoid? Again, maybe; But I'll give you odds here too if you want to gamble that I'm wrong.

I recently had cause to see an attorney to discuss my wife and I suing a supplier. I was told I had an airtight case as long as I didn't mention any details that could give that company an option to bring on a counter suit for liable.

Have things been posted on this board about suppliers that the poster could be sued for? I really believe so, but not by me, IMO. I hope this explains, at least in part my reason for my earlier post about suppliers. I also hope some of you now understand my reluctance to elaborate on supplier issues.

Peggy; I too have urged more than one supplier to review this board to see what some of their customers were saying in order for them to get the point to improve their operations. If I was a supplier, I would appreciate candid feedback.

Karen; I know you are not in the trade, but those of us who are are have more than likely spent significant sums of time and money to grow our business and for us to give away for free what has cost us so much in time and money is not smart thinking on our part. I agree with you that once it's on the internet it's "out there", forever! I wonder how much of what we have posted will come back to bite us in our butts?

As I mentioned above; Does it really matter if a candle or bottle of lotion, bar of soap or great lip balm that's really WELL MADE, was made in a kitchen, garage or big plant?

Until recently, I was able to compete with the mass marketers on highly fragrant candles, but as we have observed the trend in our industry is towards wickless wax products. I'm becoming concerned that I can continue to produce a superior product and remain competative. I wonder how much technology on the best waxes, lotions and fragrances was gleaned by the "big boys" from boards like this?

No, I don't think Target, Walmart, K-Mart, YC or any other mass marketer is selling phony "HM" candles on the market. Why would they need to as long as they make their products based on our recipes and have let us do all most all of the R&D for them.

Does anyone really believe that these huge corporations cannot obtain the same ingredients as we do and not at a much better cost. The only thing the big boys need to do is to COMMIT to using the best ingredients and we will eventually become an afterthought. Paranoid? Maybe, but I'm not giving odds on this one. I might be wrong, here. I hope I am.

Sorry for any "confusion" I may have caused by my previous posts. I hope this more clearly explains my thoughts on the thread topic.

JMO/HTH

Dave

Edited May 9, 2013 by emilyspoppy

[PeggyK]

In my IMAGINATION I can see them not only discussing trends and opinions that we and others put out there for the world to read, but also I believe they STEAL our IDEAS and RECIPES on virtually anything that could be useful to them. Paranoid? Maybe; But I'll give you odds if you want to gamble that I'm wrong.

I think this, too. While I don't read/participate very often outside of the Fragrance section (and don't really recall seeing ideas/recipes being given out), I will bet the big guys are quietly watching (which I also think might be how many people are 'caught' and sent the "Cease and Desist" letters). The forum is a one-stop shop where they can find a bunch of candle business to investigate in one fell swoop.

[jeanie353]

Dave

I don't remember seeing a thread (recently) about a supplier where liable could come into play. Correct me if I'm not remembering correctly but believe everything was either by action or words of supplier that caused a little issue.

Sorry for hijack JBN

I think big manufacturers follow trends just as us home chandlers do, to a degree. What is really hot right now are melts but melts in loaf style, scoop style, etc. I live under a rock but when I do go out, haven't seen those type products at the mass merchants.

[emilyspoppy]

Jeanie;

I might be paranoid about the liable issue, but most of my paranoia may be due to what my lawyer told me in January and some things I've learned during life.

I think most of us would agree that we live in a somewhat litigeous society to some point. Once the lawyers get involved it is easy to understand why there are so many lawsuits that either go to court or wind up being settled beforehand. My own legal eagle is a nice lady, but she's pretty much like the rest of most of those in her profession once they smell the blood in the water. It's how they make their living.

In a "previous life" I had a job, that required me to spend a fair amount of time in criminal court as part of a prosecution team. I once, remember, commenting to a prosecutor friend, how screwed up the system was. He just laughed and told me it was even screwier in the world of civil law. He told me that virtually anyone can sue anybody for any reason. I've never forgotten it.

Without mentioning names, (I don't want to spend the time doing the research), I remember recently reading a thread full of posts that, in my opinion, would make good grist for lawyers to grind in a civil action that brought suits against some board members who were attacking a business owner for "stealing" back the business from the heir of a deceased spouse.

I have nothing to add or comment on the case, but I remember being surprised by what was being posted and the claims being made. It may have been total truth, but regardless, I felt SOME of the posters were not acting in their own best legal interests.

Most of us may have liability insurance on our homes and business ventures, but I think that we're on our own when it comes to liable issues. I'd hate to lose everything I have in this world due to some stupid comment I posted on the internet.

I once worked as a reporter/photographer turned news editer for a small newspaper. Sometimes we did get the story wrong, but usually a retraction buried on page eight or so covered our butts! I'm not sure how that would work in this medium.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what or how they should post. I have been asked on the board and through PM's, however, to say things about suppliers, I'm uncomfortable commenting on. I just took this opportunity to explain. Sorry again for any confusion. I wish I had never posted at all on this thread. I really didn't have much to offer and the distraction apparently wasn't a benefit. Sorry!

Edited May 9, 2013 by emilyspoppy