SRez

3 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Don’t rule out the baseline without fo.  Weight / specific gravity of FO means absolutely zero when burning.

 

the purpose of a baseline is to quickly learn how that particular case lot of wax performs before you waste time and $ on failed candles when the wax variance is the culprit. Had I not learned to do this I would have had to recall thousands of $ in candles when a new lot of 415 soy wax burned easier than the original lots by several wick sizes.
 

December 2016 was when soy totally went to pot on me. November’s 444 lot was perfect, wick tests completed. candles made and sold. The new December lot of 444 would not stay lit at all. making candles for wholesale and retail without that knowledge would have put another nail in the business coffin.  tth

I'm going to start a wick test this weekend with naked 464.  I have about 20 tumblers and a couple of baking pans ready to go.  They've been curing for 2 weeks.  I'll take pics and share out here.  Other than mushrooms or the lack of; melt pool diameter and how the flame acts / soots; what else do you recommend that I look for?  

4 hours ago, moomin3 said:

 

Any updates to give, SRez? Found this thread as I was struggling with wicking my Libby Status jar which is 3.03" vs your straight sided tumbler at 3.06". I think I have also settled on CD18 at 6% FO. I don't test without FO anymore because I found it to be kind of a waste of time because the wax performs so differently with FO. Once there's a baseline then I can go up and down in the series depending on the heaviness of the scent.

 

I also have had issues with ECO fizzling out - most people I find recommend ECO 12-14 for this diameter and I do not know how that's working for them! I know people say ECO is so good in 464 but I'm just not impressed with the performance or hot throw. I tried Premier and LX too and wasn't impressed enough to continue to commit the dance up and down their odd series numbers (just too many for me!!!). I think CD is going to be my best bet. Anyways, would love to see/hear an update!!! 

I found that the CD18 was too big.  I opted for a CD14 at 8% FO for a couple of scents which worked much better than the CD18.  Less wax consumption and the mushrooming was much less.  I took a break from the Christmas Hearth and am currently working on a couple of other scents.  I've tried a couple of scents at 6% but the ones I had chosen were a bit faint in smell. 

I've learned in the last few months that there is no need to rush this process and to not settle for "good enough".  I've tried ECO's, HTP's, Premiers, CDN's, LX, RRD and Cottonwood.  If I had to choose what works best for me with what scents I have, it would be the CD's followed by the CDN / HTP then ECO.  Premiers I got to throw really well with one scent and mushroom wasn't' that bad but required trimming.  

I was there 2 weeks ago to pick up some items and he seemed fine. Said he was super crazy busy. I also called a couple of days in advance before driving up there but he wasn't answering. He finally picked up after a few days of me trying to reach him. I didn't ask if anything happened. I just chalked it up to him being busy. 

Ha! All good. I had to double check myself to make sure I didn't flip the 9 upside down. 😁

27 minutes ago, Kris10Tackles said:

I just went on to CS, maybe I missed it but I didn’t see anything about 464 being discontinued, just that it’s currently out of stock, and the dates that it would be back in stock in each warehouse. 

Yup. I was talking about 494, not 464. We use that for tarts and clamshells. 

Yeah I saw that. Hmm. I assume they'll keep 464 though. That's a big seller for them I would imagine. I'm wondering if there's a particular reason why they stopped selling it. Kinda like what they did with the Cargill line. 

I just went onto CS to look for 494 and lo and behold it is discontinued.  Out of stock.  Anyone know why?  Did they have some kind of fall out with GB or better offers from the other competitors?  

With 6006 I've been lucky with Cranberry Apple Marmalade in a 12 ounce Mason jar and Peppermint Eucalyptus in a 12 ounce straight sided Libbey tumbler.  Both using HTP83 at 7% FO and cured for about a month. The FO's were from Candle Science. They each (at separate times) filled up a 12x14 bedroom and drifted into adjoining rooms. I was extremely surprised.

However, lavender didn't do as well with the HTP83. 73 and 93 didn't cut it either. 

I just happened to pour them in those containers because that's what I had at the time. I'm pretty confident though with that approximate size container diameter and that wax to wick combination.

I just poured 12 testers (6 of each scent) in 8 ounce jelly jars at 6% to test as well. May need to wick down to an HTP73. We'll see what happens when the time comes. I may get some 12 ounce jelly jars and try those as well with the HTP83 again. 

Ahh. Good to know.  You almost had me rethinking everything.  Thanks!

Do you mean 464 will burn like the candle above or do you mean that 464 will remain the same as when made?

So with this being said... if the same thing happens to the other candle... how should one ultimately wick? 

I'm thinking the answer is "for now / 6 months / 1 year from now".

But, what would work now for that candle would have been too big in the beginning. 

Always something I guess.  

34 minutes ago, Pam W said:

i'm with Candybee here:  burn that baby all the way to the bottom of the jar.  I say this because I recently burned a jar candle gifted to me by a neighbor (store bought)....OMG, the initial burn and HT was to die for but as the candle burned down to about half way, the wick started to fizzle out and it would not produce any burn from there.  If I had created this candle and gifted to a friend, I would be so embarrased...kwim.

 

Doing this now as we speak. What started off pretty good the first half decreased in flame and scent the second half. Going to keep plugging away at it though. 😁

31 minutes ago, CW5 said:

I use at CD 18 wick and it works fine.  It doesn't get too hot once it starts burning and there is a little hang up after 3 hours.  I have also learned that a 10% fragrance load doesn't necessarily mean more scent. I would suggest 7-8% and go from there. 

We actually made 2 different batches the other night. A 6% and an 8% to test. And we're going to actually let it sit for 2 weeks before testing. I'm thinking we also tested too early. We only waited about a week because I was getting a little impatient and wanted to see / smell the results.

16 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

 

When wicked well 30 minutes or less is reasonable for HT in veg waxes. Single wicks will always lag behind multiple wicks for speed and intensity of HT. Bigger single wicks do not always mean better HT. 

 

CD18 in that size jar does not seem unreasonable, depending on the scent.  As long as the glass does not get above 170*F, the flame is not growing taller or throwing soot you may be right on track.

 

Soy is a difficult beast to learn. So FO do great off the bat, like bakery or cologne/perfume scents.  Some never seem to want to give it up. Some only give HT when you get further down into the jar where more air convection begins. I don't judge til the bitter end.

Very insightful.  Thank you. 

10 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

I don’t usually pour out.  If there is a lot of hang up I may level a bit with a heat gun and thoroughly cool.

Great! Thank you. Is there a rule of thumb as to how long it should take for a candle to give off the scent? 

I want to say that within 30 minutes, when I walked in the room, the CD18 and HTP104 were already throwing a decent scent. 

So when testing a wick, how long would you wait for to determine if a wick works well with that scent or not? 

I want to try a few different sizes up and down, but after the failing tests yesterday... not waiting long enough for the wax to harden to retest... I'm second guessing how long it should actually take to notice a scent. 

14 hours ago, TallTayl said:

When you swap a wick I would let it cool completely. Testing labs state at least 5 hours between lighting. you could also have a little candle nose from heat gunning the wax 🤗

 

it takes a bit with single wicks to get the air currents swirling. 

I forgot to ask... should I pour out whatever melt pool there is from the testing wick and then level it before adding another wick?  Will that test pool have no scent once it was used / tested?

4 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

When you swap a wick I would let it cool completely. Testing labs state at least 5 hours between lighting. you could also have a little candle nose from heat gunning the wax 🤗

 

it takes a bit with single wicks to get the air currents swirling. 

Ahh. Gotcha. Time consuming that is. 😊. Back at it tomorrow I reckon. 

Thank you for the sound advice @TallTayl    

On another note... I had previously made 2 batches of Christmas Hearth and beach linen, both at 10%. 4 containers of beach and 2 containers of Christmas. They cured for one week. I was getting antsy yesterday and wanted to test. I originally had a CD 18 in the Xmas hearth and it gave a decent throw. Not exactly in your face when you walked in the bedroom... But you could definitely tell it was working. I tried wicking up with the CD to 20 and down to 8 to see how the other CD wicks reacted.   Absolutely nothing. I tested each one for about 45 minutes. I then went back to the 18 that originally worked and now that doesn't throw at all.

Should I be waiting a certain time in between swapping wicks for the wax to cure? I pull the bad wick, wait till the wax dries... Maybe an hour, then add a different wick, heat gun along the rim of the glass to lock in the wick, let that dry and light it.  I also in some cases poured out the current melt pool (thinking maybe some fragrance escaped) and heat gunned the edges to level it out again. 

The same issue occurred with the beach linen. That one however worked with the HTP 104 originally. So I've now tested both fragrances from CD 8 to 20 and HTP 93, 104 and 105. The 2 original that worked, don't throw at all now. 

What am I doing wrong? Am I not waiting long enough to swap and light? Is the wax still too soft? 

1 hour ago, ErronB said:

 

Just wait until you try to get a hot throw from 464 with fragrance, prepare for lots of stress, and screaming.

Ha! Can't wait. Ain't nothing like a little challenge. 

Hi all,

I attached a few pics of the 7 out of 25 candles that we thought were the best using unscented 464 in 12 oz, 3" diameter tumblers.  How do you think these look overall after 10 hours of burn time?  The first day was 4 hours and the second day was 6 hours. 

Both of the ECO's looked like they were about to go out on the first day at the 3 1/2 hour mark.  But stayed strong on the second day for 6 hours.  The CD's and HTP's were neck and neck... But the CD's looked a tad better.  

The one pic with the 7 lined up, have a line marked with sharpie towards the top of the glass where the wax started and a line below to show where it is now / how much wax has burned.  For the most part, they pretty much burned about the same amount of wax.  

I'm also concerned that there's not enough wax on the sides, except for the Premier 765.  Wondering if there's a possibility of these running hot as it reaches closer to the bottom.  

Also wondering your opinion on which wick looks the best as of now at this 10 hour burn mark.  

Thanks

53 minutes ago, ErronB said:

 

Everyone is different, if they're not catering towards tree huggers then they might switch to a high melt point parasoy like 6006, but that kind of defeats the purpose of going through all the hell getting a good throwing soy candle without using paraffin, or if they want to stick with soy then 444 is an option as well as using additives to harden the 464 wax like Universal Soy Additive, but I like C3 better for higher temps and I've had more luck with consistent batches. I only make high melt point candles now so I don't have to worry about any of that. Some people do ship 464 candles 'as is' but the amount of extra costs in packaging and there still being the higher risk of it turning to mush doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

Makes sense. We also have 444, 415 and 6006. Kinda went full tilt. Going to have experiment with those as well. Out of those others, what do you recommend to tackle next?

46 minutes ago, ErronB said:

 

Premier didn't work out for me, I wanted it to, but I had a noticeably lower hot throw with a lot of fragrances. It might be different for you, though.

 

Just remember that 464 has a very low melt point, you can't ship it in hot weather, but if you're only going to be using it for delivering in person or in a store then it's fine.

Good to know. Is it safe to say that most people change to another wax in the warmer/summer months to avoid that problem if they're shipping out? Like say to 444 or a parasoy? Or something else altogether? 

3 hours ago, CW5 said:

Yes, I have found that the HTP and the CD wicks are pretty much the same with my preference being the CD one.  Curious on how the Premier pans out.  Pictures would be great if you can. Oh, the joys of candle making.

I'll send some pics tonight.  

4 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Super!
 

htp and cd have been pretty much the same wick.  while all comparisons are wax/fo dependent, Here’s a fun thread to confirm your testing.

https://www.craftserver.com/topic/111895-cd-vs-htp-vs-cdn-wicks/

please do test new shipments of wicks Like this if you choose to use them. With supply chain interruptions, a supplier noted that HTP may not be using exactly the same materials. Have not heard the same for CD, but it would not surprise me.

 

Good to know. Thanks for the link.  It was interesting to see how they pretty much mimicked each other.  Will also keep the possible different materials in mind when ordering.  Thanks again. 

14 hours ago, ErronB said:

Such a fun thing this whole candlemaking, right? lol.

 

 

 

 

 

Ha! I'll tell ya what... We're actually enjoying watching this play out.  It's a cross between engineering and a chemistry / science experiment. 

We originally had 25, 3" Libbey tumblers with 464 (no fragrance yet) all wicked up and burning, testing for the 2 days.  We burned 4 hours the first day and 6 hours yesterday. 

We narrowed it down to 8 wicks last night and going to continue tonight with testing.   

The best so far, for us, out of the 8 are the CD 10 and 12, HTP 104 and 105 and Premier 765.  The 5 that I mentioned all seem to remain constant throughout. 

CD 8 seems a bit small but going to see what it does for the fun of it.  And ECO 10 and 12 almost died out during the first burn but seems fine on the second burn.  Not sure why.    

I want to say that the CD's probably take the lead as of now.  The CD's and HTP's burned pretty much the same amount of wax and the wicks look the same. 

The Premier wick though, looks the best.  No build up or mushrooming at all.  Let's see what tonight brings.  

Gonna keep on keepin' on.