melt pool question

[periwinkle]

How long should it take to get a full melt pool? And how deep is appropriate?

I melted my over-wicked candle, and re-poured it with a smaller wick, and I still got a FMP in an hour. And not much HT, but I'm more concerned about the melt pool at this moment, since I melted a candle that I had previously made.

Oh yeah, I'm using Naturewax C3, FO is blueberry cobbler from Lone Star, ECO-6 wick, in a 6.5 oz classic jar, jar has a diameter of just over 2.5".

I appreciate any and all help.

[Stella1952]

I can't help with the wick you are using, but I'd be testing a CDN 8... that's what I use in a 6.4 oz. hex which has a slightly smaller diameter... It should take about 2-2½ hours to achieve FMP. If it doesn't achieve FMP until the second burn, that's perfectly acceptable.

[CandleAddict_RN]

And I can't help you with the wax your using (I use a para-soy)But in my limited experience with ECO, and lots of reading here, the ECO's burn much hotter than other wicks. I tried an ECO 6 in a 3" diameter and it was way to much. Went down to a 4 and still the flame seems awfully big with flickering & smoking. Tempted to go down to a 2 but probably will ditch the ECO's altogether. I'm leaning towards either the CD's or HTP. Testing a couple jars now 3"D and doing well with a CD 8

[EricofAZ]

Well, its been a while since I messed around with C3, but I would start with an Eco 1 on that jar and go up maybe if necessary to an ECO 2 for paraffin. Might take larger with soy, but an ECO 6 seems way too large.

[lmc]

I use C3 and have tested the ECOs...they do burn hotter. Now I'm testing CDN's and find they do consume the wax at a slower rate and have a nice, steady flame. I don,t get sooting with CDNs the way I did with ECOs but it usually takes the 2nd burn before I reach fmp...hth

[rjdaines]

I also recommend the CD wicks, I find them a great choice for soy and paraffin. Regarding melt pool, room temp will also have an influence at the early stages, after the halfway point, less so. The 1 hour per inch is a good general rule but don't get anal about it, as for depth, a 1/4 inch or so is great but that will also change during the candles life. For my 2.5" with 464 I am using CD8 or CD10 depending on FO. Get those sample packs.

[jeanie353]

It is so amazing to me how wicks work differently for different people and different waxes. With Eco wicks in my favorite parasoy, I get a perfect burn all the way through. No flickering, no soot...just wonderful. I put a CD in that same parasoy and have a terrible burn but an improved HT in some scents that were weak with Eco's. So Eco wicks are not acceptable with all scents in that particular parasoy.

I'm finding CDNs to perform better than CDs in parasoy and one paraffin but still getting waving flames on the 3rd and subsequent burns.

I've read people love LX in parasoy. I get very high flames. Tried lowering the wick size and end up underwicked.

I like HTP wicks a lot in how they burn but can't get parasoy single wicked in a 3-5/8" jar. I have not tried 126 as I found it to be a torch in the past.

I am cutting my wicks to 1/8" to 1/4". Does anyone think that may be too low and where my problem lies?

I'm about to go back to pure soy at this rate...Would rather not as I like a good HT pretty much out the gate but this wicking is driving me crazy on the parsoy/paraffin blends.

Edited December 4, 2011 by jeanie353
additional comment

[periwinkle]

I can't help with the wick you are using, but I'd be testing a CDN 8... that's what I use in a 6.4 oz. hex which has a slightly smaller diameter... It should take about 2-2½ hours to achieve FMP. If it doesn't achieve FMP until the second burn, that's perfectly acceptable.

Thank you! I'll have to drop the size again, and see what happens (if you remember, I started with ECO-10, because that's what came in the kit.) I also have some HTPs that I may try, but I really wanted to stick with the ECOs, because they are primed with vegetable wax.

What are CDNs coated with? I can't find anything specific about them.

[periwinkle]

I use C3 and have tested the ECOs...they do burn hotter. Now I'm testing CDN's and find they do consume the wax at a slower rate and have a nice, steady flame. I don,t get sooting with CDNs the way I did with ECOs but it usually takes the 2nd burn before I reach fmp...hth

Thank you, that's very helpful!

[ChandlerWicks]

The CDNs are working the best with all the soy I'm testing.

[jeanie353]

The CDNs are working the best with all the soy I'm testing.

ChandlerWicks....is that in pure soy or mixed with a paraffin?

[Stella1952]

What are CDNs coated with? I can't find anything specific about them.

CDNs (Stabilo KSTs) are manufactured by Heinz-Verhaegh (Heinz- Jansen). You can check their website for information or Wicks Unlimited. The links are contained in posts here in the forum or you can Google to find them.

If you are talking about the wick wax used to prime them, you have to consult each supplier for that specific information. They could be primed with paraffin, high temp paraffin, veggie wax or high temp veggie wax. If the supplier does not list this information, you will have to contact them.

If you are talking about the wick treatment that helps resist oxidation in high-acid waxes, read up at their website for more information on the process. As to what the substance is, I don't know. Heinz has an MSDS sheet available and its products are REACH compliant.

[ChandlerWicks]

Boff like paper or plastic. I had to laugh Jeanie. I hated to ask that question when I was a cashier in a grocery store & the customer would respond Boff/both!

ChandlerWicks....is that in pure soy or mixed with a paraffin?

[periwinkle]

CDNs (Stabilo KSTs) are manufactured by Heinz-Verhaegh (Heinz- Jansen). You can check their website for information or Wicks Unlimited. The links are contained in posts here in the forum or you can Google to find them.

If you are talking about the wick wax used to prime them, you have to consult each supplier for that specific information. They could be primed with paraffin, high temp paraffin, veggie wax or high temp veggie wax. If the supplier does not list this information, you will have to contact them.

If you are talking about the wick treatment that helps resist oxidation in high-acid waxes, read up at their website for more information on the process. As to what the substance is, I don't know. Heinz has an MSDS sheet available and its products are REACH compliant.

You can't make it easy for me, can you? LOL

I finally found something on the mfr. website that says the wick treatment for the KST wicks is 100% stearine. It does not state whether it is animal or plant based though.

So then here's my next question- if a person makes soy candles, but the wicks are not primed with soy wax, how should they be marketed? They are no longer 100% soy then. Or am I over thinking this?

[jeanie353]

Boff like paper or plastic. I had to laugh Jeanie. I hated to ask that question when I was a cashier in a grocery store & the customer would respond Boff/both!

Customers wanted Boff? Why would they want that? Did they ever explain that preference. Well, it isn't actually a preference when they want Boff, is it?

So you are working with soy and parasoy Boff with CSN, right? OK...I'm working on the same. I do like them better than CDs. They seem to burn smoother imo.

[jeanie353]

CDNs (Stabilo KSTs) are manufactured by Heinz-Verhaegh (Heinz- Jansen). You can check their website for information or Wicks Unlimited. The links are contained in posts here in the forum or you can Google to find them.

If you are talking about the wick wax used to prime them, you have to consult each supplier for that specific information. They could be primed with paraffin, high temp paraffin, veggie wax or high temp veggie wax. If the supplier does not list this information, you will have to contact them.

If you are talking about the wick treatment that helps resist oxidation in high-acid waxes, read up at their website for more information on the process. As to what the substance is, I don't know. Heinz has an MSDS sheet available and its products are REACH compliant.

I thought CD with were CDN with natural high MP prime to combat or work with the acids of soys. So, if they are going to be primed with different types of wax (such as paraffin) why are they CDNs then or are they still CDNs, I guess is what I'm trying to say. I hope I am explaining my question right. I don't know why this is getting more confusing the more farther I venture out but it sure is.

[Stella1952]

I finally found something on the mfr. website that says the wick treatment for the KST wicks is 100% stearine

Where on the manufacturer's website (Heinz-Verhaegh or Heinz Jansen) did you find that? Please provide a link to that information.

I thought CD with were CDN with natural high MP prime

Nope. Sorry, but you are confused.

Priming (applying wick wax) is NOT the same as chemical wick treatment.

The wick TREATMENT for Stabilo KST is a patented chemical impregnation process... it is NOT 100% stearine to my knowledge nor have I ever read that on their site.

Wicking is shipped from the manufacturer raw on spools or reels to distributors who cut, tab and prime them to customer specifications. Wick treatment is part of the manufacturing process. Distributors can order primed (waxed) wicking on reels.

For example when I have ordered CDN wicks from distributors, I specify the size tab I want, the length I want the wicks cut and the kind of priming wick wax I want on them. CDs (Stabilo) and CDNs (Stabilo KST) are identical EXCEPT for the treatment impregnated into CDNs. This treatment is applied BEFORE wick wax. Many wicks have some chemical treatment impregnated into the strands to ensure even burning. In the case of CDNs, the chemical treatment is slightly different to resist oxidation in high acid waxes, such as veggie waxes, which contain a higher amount of fatty acids than does paraffin.

To help y'all understand about wicking:

There is a 3 tiered distribution system: manufacturer, distributor, supplier.

End users (that's us!) generally order from suppliers (like Lone Star, CandleWic, Peak, etc.

Some larger candle companies may order from distributors in lots of several thousand pieces (individual wicks - each size is considered a different order; ie. 5,000 CDN8, 5,000 CDN 10, etc. No mixing of sizes or wick types.).

Suppliers (like Peak, Lone Star, CandleWic, etc.) generally order their wicks from distributors. Some larger suppliers may order directly from the manufacturer.

Distributors (WickIt, Wicks Unlimited, Precision Wicking, etc.) order from manufacturers (Heinz, WEDO, Atkins & Pearce, etc.). BIGTIME candle companies may order directly from the manufacturers.

Manufacturers (Heinz, WEDO, Atkins & Pearce) actually are the ones who make the wicking on big spools, reels, etc.

Here are the links for Heinz products (CD, CDN) one mo' time... Remember: Heinz changed the wick name from CD to Stabilo years ago, but people still call them CD. CDNs are Stabilo KST. KST refers to Stabilo wicking impregnated with their patented acid resisting treatment. The wicking is exactly the same EXCEPT for the treatment impregnated into it in CDNs (KSTs).

Heinz information about their wick treatment.

MORE INFO IS AVAILABLE by linking around their site.

http://www.technische-geflechte.de/site/english/about-the-wick/wick-treatment.html

Heinz Jansen Technical Braiding

http://www.technische-geflechte.de/site/english/customer-service/downloads.html

Cera Tech division of Heinz Verhaegh Corp (US)

http://www.heinzverhaegh.com/index.html

The wick waxes available from this distributor can be found here:

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/candle_waxes.php

The wick waxes available from this distributor can be found here:

http://www.wickit.net/index.html

The wick waxes available from this distributor can be found here:

http://www.precisionwicking.com/download-msds/MSDS/Wax/

Supplier information on the wicks they carry and how they ordered them can be found on their individual websites or by contacting them.

I hope this clears up any questions and confusion. Please take the time to READ the links - it's wise to read from the "horse's mouth" than from second or third hand information.

So then here's my next question- if a person makes soy candles, but the wicks are not primed with soy wax, how should they be marketed? They are no longer 100% soy then. Or am I over thinking this?

The wick is made from cotton and paper - not soy. The FO or EO is not made from soy. The dye is not made from soy. Most soy waxes are not made from 100% soy.

NO SOY CANDLE is 100% soy. Even soy wax is not derived from 100% soy - it is separated from the soybean mash with hexane, hydrogenated, etc. The "100% soy" marketing is directed at people who have extreme misconceptions about soy. In the case of NatureWax C3, it is a "Premium Vegetable Wax", according to the label on the case. It is NOT 100% soy.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Stella1952

[periwinkle]

Where on the manufacturer's website (Heinz-Verhaegh or Heinz Jansen) did you find that? Please provide a link to that information.

All the way at the bottom.

http://www.technische-geflechte.de/site/english/customer-service/techn-specifications.html

The wick is made from cotton and paper - not soy. The FO or EO is not made from soy. The dye is not made from soy. Most soy waxes are not made from 100% soy.

NO SOY CANDLE is 100% soy. Even soy wax is not derived from 100% soy - it is separated from the soybean mash with hexane, hydrogenated, etc. The "100% soy" marketing is directed at people who have extreme misconceptions about soy. In the case of NatureWax C3, it is a "Premium Vegetable Wax", according to the label on the case. It is NOT 100% soy.

See, I was overthinking it. Or perhaps underthinking. Gah.... I still have so much to learn. Going into this, I would have never in a million years thought candle making was such a science. Candles have been around for centuries, they should be simple, right?

[Ravens]

Well, Hell's bells, I just have to ask something.

Haven't we covered the CD and CDN wicks at nauseatum? Stella, you have given us link after link, useful information not just about these particular wicks but also about vegetable waxes, particularly the C-3.

So my question is, could we ask one of the mods to turn all this info into some "sticky" to place at the top of the Veggie waxes forum?

It sure would help a ton, we wouldn't go off-topic, and anyone who is interested in learning about it can refer to the stickies.

is this something that could be easily done? No, I am NOT volunteering! :laugh2:

Does anyone else besides me think it a good, pregnant idea?

[Stella1952]

for composition +/-75% paraffine / +/- 25% stearine

I suspected that there was some confusion. The Table is matching different wick treatments with candles of different compositions.

Wick Treatment

EX for 100% paraffine

KST for 100% stearine

E for composition +/-75% paraffine / +/- 25% stearine

They are suggesting that if you are making a 100% stearine candle, you should choose a wick with the KST treatment. HTH

[Beth]

Well, Hell's bells, I just have to ask something.

Haven't we covered the CD and CDN wicks at nauseatum? Stella, you have given us link after link, useful information not just about these particular wicks but also about vegetable waxes, particularly the C-3.

So my question is, could we ask one of the mods to turn all this info into some "sticky" to place at the top of the Veggie waxes forum?

It sure would help a ton, we wouldn't go off-topic, and anyone who is interested in learning about it can refer to the stickies.

is this something that could be easily done? No, I am NOT volunteering! :laugh2:

Does anyone else besides me think it a good, pregnant idea?

omg, Ravens, sometimes I think we're the same person, lol.

[jeanie353]

Well, Hell's bells, I just have to ask something.

Haven't we covered the CD and CDN wicks at nauseatum? Stella, you have given us link after link, useful information not just about these particular wicks but also about vegetable waxes, particularly the C-3.

So my question is, could we ask one of the mods to turn all this info into some "sticky" to place at the top of the Veggie waxes forum?

It sure would help a ton, we wouldn't go off-topic, and anyone who is interested in learning about it can refer to the stickies.

is this something that could be easily done? No, I am NOT volunteering! :laugh2:

Does anyone else besides me think it a good, pregnant idea?

I tried to keep my reply short but it wouldn't let me. It wants me to yak, yak, yak. My reply was to say "sure".

[periwinkle]

I suspected that there was some confusion. The Table is matching different wick treatments with candles of different compositions.

They are suggesting that if you are making a 100% stearine candle, you should choose a wick with the KST treatment. HTH

Yes, I confuse easily :tiptoe:

And I think a sticky is a great idea. For dummies like me.*super banana* (I just really wanted to use the dancing banana lol)

[Ravens]

Ok, so who's going to approach the mods and request a sticky so we can stick it and stick to it?

[jeanie353]

Ok, so who's going to approach the mods and request a sticky so we can stick it and stick to it?

:lipsrseal