Still undecided whether to try out Soy or Stick with Palm

[Fiery_WA]

Gday again

I am thinking of trying out Soy Pillars and using Ecosoya Pillar Blend my mould is 76mm x 165mm - Concave. However NCS (Natural Candle Supply) said this and I quote "It is defiantly best to mix the Soy with the blending palm wax, as this will harden the soft soy and help keep it's form once set."

I would have thought that being a Pillar Blend it would not need any extras

[Stella1952]

I never used any additive with Ecosoya PB. The candle is not as hard as palm wax, but is as hard as comparable paraffin pillar candles. I always added stearic acid to NatureWax V1 & P1 waxes as per the manufacturer's recommendation.

[rjdaines]

Once I get my soy containers settled (wicked) I may go back and look a soy pillars but I am not thrilled with them. I think I'd rather go with either Palm or paraffin which gives a better glow. At least with the soy pillars that I made, the wick just disappears into the wax and I can't even tell if it is burning. Maybe that is all my fault and I will see but for the sensual experience, soy pillars are not for me.

[brown5052]

I have been trying for several months to get a decent pillar using Ecosoya PB. So far I've only succeeded in getting a pillar where the wick just disappears into the wax and you can't tell if it's burning. So I've also had the same results as rjdaines. I'm now also starting to think the soy pillars aren't for me. I may mix the pb with some paraffin to see what happens.

[rjdaines]

@Brown5052, been there are done that too. If I want a creamier paraffin candle I throw in about 20% to 25% soy (either Ecosoya PB or CD Advanced). At that ratio I can use my paraffin wicks rather than the soy ones. Not sure I will buy any more PB once it is gone.

[Fiery_WA]

I emailed the Ecosoya people about EcoSoya® PB .... first question :-

Does this particular wax require anything extra to make pillar candles? such as Blending Palm Wax. Or can it be used to make pillars as is?

There response :-

If you wish to make the PB more pliable for larger candles it will be easiest to blend in something like beeswax at about 20%. If you are making something like a 3X3 pillar PB can be used straight.

As my pillar is a 3 x 6, I wanted clarification so my second email to them :-

My Pillar size is 3 x 6. I live in Australia and the only brand of Pillar Blend Soy wax that is available to me is your EcoSoya® PB, which sells for AU$10.45 per kg (2lb), the online supplier of your EcoSoya® PB wax says I need to add Blending Palm Wax as well which sells for AU$7.50 per kg, making it an expensive venture.

So will your EcoSoya® PB hold up for a 3 x 6 mould?

There response :-

You do not need to add palm. Using PB at 100% will make a nice pillar in a 3x6 candle. The main issue will be wicking. The pillar will not “roll in” on itself like with paraffin. If you want it to do that then you will need to add beeswax. If you do what most people do then you will need to leave wall as the candle burns. This will take some figuring out on what wick works best for your candle. The goal in this case is to create a “Hurricane Candle” effect.

Now unfortunately for me NCS, and please speak up you Aussies if you know of another online store that sells EcoSoya® PB, the only beeswax they sell is beeswax pellets and they have been discontinued.

I have emailed EcoSoya again asking if they are talking pellets, slabs or either.

But after seeing your post's I am back to square one to Palm or not to Palm

[rjdaines]

It's your choice of course but as for me, I just bought 10 lbs of palm wax. Why? If the objective is to have that "hurricane" effect than palm may do it better than soy and it will glow. I have yet to see a PB soy pillar that I made glow.

[Candybee]

If you are going to use beeswax pellets are the easiest to work with as solid beeswax slabs can be difficult to cut and weigh.

Since you are asking which wax to use here's my take. I have worked with soy, paraffin, and palm for making pillars.

Paraffin is the easiest to work with and tends to be very versatile for all kinds of pillars; wave, marbled, layered, tilted layers, rustic, etc. I love working with paraffin for pillars.

Palm can make nice layers and tilties too but it is a hard wax and the best wax to make a palm pillar is to wick it for tunnelling or leaving a slim shell as it burns down. It can be wicks to burn all the way down but the sides will not burn evenly down but in more of a roller coaster appearance as sides end up with dips and peaks.

I have added CB135 to my palm pillars and managed to get pillars that burned fairly evenly all the way down without leaving a shell. You still can't hug them but the soy softened the PB enough to lower the MP. Unfortunately I lost my notes on the formula and am not sure the percentage I used. But I started out in increments of 5% soy added to PB up to 25%. I think it was in the 15-20% range where I got the best pillar burn but without my notes I can't be sure. Good luck if you try it. Haven't tried it with beeswax as my palm pillar days are over. I am sticking to paraffin for pillars only because for me paraffin is a dream to work with making awesome pillars.

Soy is the hardest to wick as far as I'm concerned. I finally gave up. But mostly because I was unimpressed with the wax. I use Ecosoya PB but now only for votives. The pillars don't burn without tunnelling badly but they throw terrific.

[Fiery_WA]

If you are going to use beeswax pellets are the easiest to work with as solid beeswax slabs can be difficult to cut and weigh.

Since you are asking which wax to use here's my take. I have worked with soy, paraffin, and palm for making pillars.

Paraffin is the easiest to work with and tends to be very versatile for all kinds of pillars; wave, marbled, layered, tilted layers, rustic, etc. I love working with paraffin for pillars.

Palm can make nice layers and tilties too but it is a hard wax and the best wax to make a palm pillar is to wick it for tunnelling or leaving a slim shell as it burns down. It can be wicks to burn all the way down but the sides will not burn evenly down but in more of a roller coaster appearance as sides end up with dips and peaks.

I have added CB135 to my palm pillars and managed to get pillars that burned fairly evenly all the way down without leaving a shell. You still can't hug them but the soy softened the PB enough to lower the MP. Unfortunately I lost my notes on the formula and am not sure the percentage I used. But I started out in increments of 5% soy added to PB up to 25%. I think it was in the 15-20% range where I got the best pillar burn but without my notes I can't be sure. Good luck if you try it. Haven't tried it with beeswax as my palm pillar days are over. I am sticking to paraffin for pillars only because for me paraffin is a dream to work with making awesome pillars.

Soy is the hardest to wick as far as I'm concerned. I finally gave up. But mostly because I was unimpressed with the wax. I use Ecosoya PB but now only for votives. The pillars don't burn without tunnelling badly but they throw terrific.

wooo hooo 1 question down, pellets are useable, do you know what ratio is needed of beeswax to the soy?

PB enough to lower the MP. huh huh and huh again? What is PB and MP?

Yes agreed Parrafin is the easiest to work with, and the tunneling with Palm is driving me nutty, so that is why I thought I would give soy a go.

Now going back to your time with Palm you added soy to make it softer, did the soy at least slow down the tunneling? I am in love with Palm over the Parrafin ( even though I had the Parrafin candles down pat). It is just the tunneling with Palm is driving me nuts.

That's why I thought I would give Soy a shot. I am thinking of buying just a kilo to start with see how it goes. I am also changing my Palm supplier to ACS, however I still have 10 - 15kg's of Feathered Palm from the original supplier left. It is too expensive to just throw away.

So this is what I am thinking at the moment buy 1kg of Soy PB, as is without beeswax. This will make 1 and a bit candles for my mould.

Then heading off to ACS to buy Crystallizing Palm Wax, the wicks ACS have suggested for there wax, David at ACS suggested I get ACS wicks for the Feathered Palm Wax I have at the moment.

Try out ACS wax and wick, to start, then slowly (and probably only if the tunneling continues, add gradual proportions of the Feathered Wax I have left over, just so I am not wasting the wax.

Although Candybee you have me most intrigued with using the soy wax in your palm.

[Stella1952]

It is just the tunneling with Palm is driving me nuts.

What is driving me nuts is wondering how many brains you are going to pick before you understand that you have to make candles firsthand to understand their properties.

What are you trying to do?

If you want pillar candles which perform like paraffin, USE PARAFFIN. Soy and palm waxes are DIFFERENT. You can blend til the cows come home, but you are not going to change the basic properties of these waxes. Soy pillar wax "blooms" and cannot be "hugged." Palm wax tends to bloom slightly, when wicked to consume completely. It cannot be "hugged." Palm wax "tunnels" even in containers, although, if properly wicked, it will eventually clean the sides of the container during the last third of the candle. If you don't like the palm wax you have because it "tunnels," sell it in the classifieds here (as soon as you have privileges). It's not just the wax or additives or blends - correct wicking has a LOT to do with how a candle burns. I use CDNs for both palm and soy wax candles.

Below left: palm /soy blend pillar wicked to self consume. Notice the "blooming" and cracking despite the addition of soy wax. Neither soy nor palm wax have much elasticity. Soy loses its strength when it becomes warm; palm wax is quite brittle and is either solid or liquid. Blending the two doesn't much improve on this property. I was forced to trim some of the edges as they "bloomed" or they would crack and fall off, sometimes splitting down into the candle lengthwise. Obviously, this candle was a failure.

Below right: An Ecosoya PB rectangular pillar demonstrating "blooming." Gross, huh? It was a failure, too.

Beeswax pastilles can be used as an additive to both palm and soy, but since you have so LITTLE experience in working with EITHER, how could you possibly know what to try when you don't even understand the properties of the waxes with which you want to work? Pour more candles and see for yourself how the waxes behave. Once you have an understanding, you can do your OWN experiments to discover what works best for you. You will make mistakes and you will learn. There are no shortcuts to success.

I may go back and look a soy pillars but I am not thrilled with them. I think I'd rather go with either Palm or paraffin which gives a better glow....I have yet to see a PB soy pillar that I made glow

Me either, rjd. They don't really glow like palm wax unless they become so thin they are in danger of blowing out. PB is too opaque to really "glow." The successful pillars I made from it (3X4 & 3X6) all pretty much self-consumed, but did not end up in a cute little lozenge like paraffin does. Honestly, I found soy pillar wax candles pretty boring.

I LOVE the luminary effect of palm wax. I find it to be a more pleasing candlelight than an open flame.

Below: a square shortie pillar poured cool (no crystals) and a ribbed ball candle burned halfway down. If palm wax didn't naturally burn down, then out, this effect would be very difficult to obtain.

[Fiery_WA]

Stella the reason I am picking peoples brains is because I am on a Disability Pension, and I do not have a huge disposable income, so any tips, brain picking, advice I can get from here costs me nothing, except for peoples patience and time :smiley2:

I am sorry if I am driving you nuts

Edited April 21, 2011 by Fiery_WA

[Stella1952]

sorry if I am driving you nuts

Admittedly, it's not such a very far drive...