Please Please Help!

[Pristina]

I am soooo stressed out right now and so blown away.

I have been making candles for over 3 years now and have come a long long way. I have spent so many hours testing and over a year ago, I finally came up with a concoction i am sooo happy with. I've been using that same concoction ever since. My candles burn even and very clean, once they burn all the way down there is absolutely no soot on the jar. I use a blend of C3 soy and glass glow palm wax.

My uncle just bought a number of fall candles from me. One of the scents he bought was the Harvest type scent. Anyways, it was a 16oz libbey interlude jar that I use 2 CD 7 wicks in. I have tested this scent and sold this scent and have never had a problem. It is, in fact, one of my most popular scents.

I just received a phone call from my uncle stating that they were burning this candle and it just "burst into a huge flame" My aunt then grabbed the candle and took it outside because she was scared that it was going to burn her house down. After the panic, my uncle then proceeds to tell me that he had it burning all night. I told him that is not a good idea and i definitely don't recommend people burn there candles for that long.

However, I have burned my candles all night and all day just to test them because I know that people forget about them, my melt pool stays the same after many hours of burning and I've never had an issue.

They told me the jar is completely charred and everything around where the candle is is black. They said it started on fire.

I was also just informed that my aunt went to the hospital because she burned herself when she picked up the jar and hot wax got on her hands and arm.

I am sooo flabber gasted, just in tears. I was just getting ready to make a ton of candles today to prepare for a show that I am in very soon. I'm so discouraged now and so confused, I just don't understand how this could have happened.

Does anyone have ANY suggestions or questions to help me out here?

[Judy, USMC]

Ok - take a deep breath - exhale slowly.....

The house didn't burn up; no one got killed. Sorry that your aunt is injured.

You know candles aren't suppose to be left burning that long ... and I'm sure they know that too. Candles are fine as long as they are not abused. From your description they abused this candle ...

Wait until things calm down, make sure your aunt is OK, then you can start your investigation. Doesn't sound to me like your product was defective - just mis-used and abused.

[Pristina]

Thank you so much for your input, Judy. I agree that it shouldn't have been burning that long, they had other candles in the house that they were burning that long too and this didn't happen with them.

I suggested that maybe something flew into the flame or something and they said no, they suggested that it seems like there is something wrong with the wax and that doesn't make sense to me at all and i tried to explain to them that the same wAx is used in all my candles. Of course, they don't understand the whole process of making candles though either and I really don't think they have any idea how stressed out i am right now over this.

[pixie]

Im so sorry this happened to you. It could of been worse, just be glad there was no permanent serious damage. Even though I know your not supposed to power burn a candle, I do all the time anyhow and so do most of my friends. Its true that alot of people just dont burn a candle properly and will do what they like instead. I can understand why your upset. Maybe it was a case of accidentally putting the wrong wicks in? Is that possible?

[Pristina]

I just talked to my aunt. She has 2nd and 3rd degree burns

They picture messaged me what the jar looked like:

I asked her how the candle looked when she first burned it and she said just fine and then i asked her how it looked this morning when she looked at it and she said the wax melt pool was less than an inch thick. How does it just catch on fire like that?

I'm so appalled and so discouraged. This really makes me want to go to all wickless or something. I've just recently sold candles to other people and i'm burning candles at home and not having this problem at all.

[chuck_35550]

I'd have to see that one up close. Looks like maybe a pocket somehow formed in the candle and maybe some fo pooled in it. That would explain a somewhat explosive reaction with the wax. The constant burn may have changed the structure of the wax and somehow the fo separated and pooled. Investigate.

[Pristina]

Thank you chuck, I am doing my best to investigate this. I was receiving my c3 wax from a distributor in Madison and they closed so now i am receiving it from a different distributor and it is a different company that makes it. I'm wondering if the wax is different and i'm going to have to go through the testing phase of all my scents again

Some days, giving up on candle making seems so much more easier than dealing with a lot of the issues that arise

[bearmnt]

im with chuck, this sounds like there was a pocket of undiluted FO somewhere in the top. Im so sorry to hear your aunt got hurt. my brother bought a container candle from walmart once and there was an oily spot on the side about 1/4 from the wall and when he burned it the same thing happened. it torched!! hopefully this is a freak thing luckily it happened to family who are willing to understand it was a real accident.

[chuck_35550]

I'm fed up with all the fo re-formulations. My old reliable Creme Brulee has changed to a much weaker cold and hot throw. You just can't depend on the raw products, due to the federal government making changes. meh.

[Pristina]

I am really beginning to think that you guys are right about the pocket of undiluted FO. Everything else just doesn't make sense.

I burned a candle today that had 2 wicks in it that were too big and i let the melt pool get over an inch and it never bursted into flames. I also burned a candle from that same batch that this candle was from, and even though it was a smaller candle, it burned just as it should.

The fact that this candle was burning just fine and then all of a sudden ignited, only leaves me to the conclusion of a FO pocket. I've never had this happen before. I mix my FO's well. What is the most likely cause of a FO pocket? Just a failure of not mixing well? Is there any other factors that could come into play here?

This is soooo bizarre and it's got me so worried because other people have these candles and I would be in big trouble if someone's house started on fire.

I just don't get it, and it sucks but i'm going to have to start testing all over again and i'm not liking this at all. Sometimes, this business can be so discouraging. This is what I advertise on my website:

[Scented]

Be assured the gov't did that because of a push from someone. It wasn't a whim.

[bugtussle]

I have had 2 incidents of a candle catching fire. In both cases, it had nothing to do with the fos. When the candle gets that hot, the fo has already burned off. The wax itself got too hot and burst into flames. CDs are very hot wicks. I use l (one) CD7 in a 6 oz tin. It can get really hot in the bottom 1/3. In both of my cases, the candles had been burning for a long time.

A soy/palm blend should be safer than my 223/soy blend, but maybe not. Container candles just cannot be burned for longer than 4/5 hrs.

Thank God it didn't start a fire. Hope your Aunt is OK. Give yourself a few days for it to sink in and then re-write your Warnng Label. I say they can be burned for only 3 hrs. Carole

[Bernadette]

Another thing to contemplate...I started a thread some time ago about a problem I was having with votives. I have made them the same way with the same ingredients and burned them from beginning to end with no problem. They are 20 hour votives. Then in one week I had two that all of sudden flared up and torched. The wick had "U - ed" over and the whole U ignited, then the whole top of the candle. Scared me to death! The wicks were supposed to be self trimming, but these 2 didn't. I haven't had the problem before or since. Something happened with those two wicks. If I had only burned them for the recommended time, I would have trimmed the wick before the next burn, and the problem wouldn't have happened. And when people power burn, they seldom trim wicks! You double wick your candles, I believe, and if something like this happened, it could have easily caused the torch.

The recommendation of burning a candle for only 3-4 hours at a time is there for a reason - the unexpected:tiptoe:.

[EricofAZ]

Palm seems to burn hotter and hold the heat longer. While any wax is going to cause burns on skin when in contact, the palm I think will cause deeper burns because it holds the heat longer and does not cool as fast as soy.

I had one candle flame on me, it was the FO and it was a blue flame on the surface of the candle. That was, to me, and alcohol burn. It cracked the side of the glass evenly around at the pool line and spilled. Fortunately, it went out by itself.

I had another look like it was trying to burn blue at the base of the wick.

So I'm careful now where I get my FO's and how much I put in.

One thing mentioned above was that the pool was just under an inch? I read somewhere that the pool should only be 1/4 inch so I wonder if the wick is a bit large for the container?

I, too, have burned my candles overnight for testing and as long as the pool stays under 1/4 inch, the glass is touchable. If the pool gets much deeper than that, then the glass gets pretty hot.

[Stella1952]

Deeper containers are going to become warmer to the touch because they will contain more heat as the candle burns down. The glass should never become too hot to touch (although they can get very warm!), even when burned down into the container with the wax completely liquid (the bitter end right before the elf-extinguishing wick tab causes the flame to go out). The melt pool on most soy candles without palm added is much deeper than one may realize, especially if the candle has been burning continuously for over 4 hours. The longer it burns, the warmer and softer the wax becomes underneath the melt pool. Can't tell for sure from the photo, but the wax looks like it has a high percentage of palm wax in it. Both palm wax AND soy can and do develop voids during cooling. Palm has a greater propensity for this, but it does happen with C3, especially with deep containers.

The concept of a "pocket of FO" mysteriously forming is not plausible. If there was a void in the candle, the melt pool may have drained into it, exposing too much wick, causing the wick to torch, superheating the container and igniting the wax. This also happened when the candle was burned down into the container, during which time the interior would have heated up quite a bit, contributing to the overheating. if the wick was not trimmed and had developed a large "shroom, this would have heated things up even more. If the wick didn't self-trim and doubled over, this is another possible contributor.

Torture testing candles by powerburning will not replicate every abuse or neglect that can occur in the home of a customer. It's better to err on the side of underwicking a candle than vice versa, especially in tall containers! A little hangup is much preferred to a hot container! I think more testing is in order, and that you should try to use a single wick (CD 16, perhaps), and wick for the bottom third of the container. I note that it appears the ignition happened where the jar narrowed, concentrating the heat even more because the candle was wicked for the widest part of the jar and not the narrowest.

Just guessing, I think the combination of:

1. a long burn, overheating the container;

2. an overwicked container;

3. and an air pocket (void) draining the melt pool suddenly

is the most likely scenario.

I'm glad you shared this problem because it helps to remind ALL of us to stress to our customers the importance of burning candles according to the directions, and:

NEVER move a liquid candle, ESPECIALLY if it's on fire!!! Place something over the top to smother the fire!

NEVER NEVER NEVER put water onto a burning candle (same as a grease fire) - it will explode into a fireball. Watch & learn:

This one's pretty impressive, too.

NEVER burn a candle directly on a flammable surface or near anything flammable.

Do not burn a candle in a draft.

It's important to keep the wick trimmed, even if it is a "self-trimming" wick like a CD. Pieces of the wick can fall into the melt pool and catch fire.

One MUST PAY ATTENTION to a burning candle (it's an open flame!) and perform routine maintenance if it starts burning too hot, etc. People who burn candles with the same amount of regard as turning on a lamp are asking for trouble! If people fail to read warning labels, instructions, common sense, etc., accidents WILL happen!

Best wishes for your aunt's speedy recovery.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Stella1952

[Candlebuddy]

I've never had a candle burst into flames, and I pray I never do ... this is scary stuff! Sorry about your aunt Pristina, and sorry you're going thru this.

[bearmnt]

stella- I was actually watching a mythbusters about grease fires last night. 8 oz of water in a pan of canola oil shot 25 feet in the air. I almost posted something about it on this thread.

[Pristina]

Both palm wax AND soy can and do develop voids during cooling. Palm has a greater propensity for this, but it does happen with C3, especially with deep containers.

The concept of a "pocket of FO" mysteriously forming is not plausible. If there was a void in the candle, the melt pool may have drained into it, exposing too much wick, causing the wick to torch, superheating the container and igniting the wax. This also happened when the candle was burned down into the container, during which time the interior would have heated up quite a bit, contributing to the overheating. if the wick was not trimmed and had developed a large "shroom, this would have heated things up even more. If the wick didn't self-trim and doubled over, this is another possible contributor.

Stella,

What do you do to prevent voids in your candles? I need to be sure that this never ever happens again.

I know that you are also a C3 user, what kind of wicks do you use? Are you still happy with the C3 since 2008? Do you find it to be very inconsistent? I've been investigating that wax since this happened because it is the one major thing that has changed for me recently.

Thanks for your very helpful reply too by the way

[bearmnt]

theres is one other thread today I was just reading and it said that some suppliers are gonna stop carrying C3 because the wax batches are "inconsistant". give m a minute and I get you the link

[bearmnt]

here it is

[Pristina]

What type of wax are you using bearmint?

[Stella1952]

theres is one other thread today I was just reading and it said that some suppliers are gonna stop carrying C3 because the wax batches are "inconsistant"

:rolleyes2 That's one vague report in one thread that didn't mention that one supplier's name. This does not constitute a "trend," nor does it even indicate that the supplier actually did drop C3 or had valid complaints about it! Perhaps they got one of the real "bad" batches and got aggravated during that process. Who knows? Ecosoy has been marketing like crazy to corner the soy wax market. Elevance hasn't even finished their FAQ section... that doesn't mean that EcoSoya is a better product - just has more aggressive marketing. I do note that Elevance isn't making much more than a half-hearted attempt to promote and sell its NatureWax line of products, at least in the US.

I encourage everyone to use some caution when reading on forums. Just because it's there doesn't make it true or reliable. A post is simply one person's opinion, oftentimes repeating third-hand information. Rumours spread like wildfire on the internet, especially when no one bothers to track down the actual source or fact-check the veracity of the information being spread around.

I've been using C3 since 2005. I still use C3. I still like it overall. I still dislike some things about it. I use CDN wicks except in votives, where I use CDs. Every wick, wax & system has its merits and deficiencies. Mine works for me. Your mileage may vary.

What do you do to prevent voids in your candles?

My candles are different from your candles. I make GG container candles and I make C3 container candles. I don't mix the waxes. I don't use the same style containers that you use. I may not pour or cool them the same way as you do.

When cooling C3, I gently "thump" each candle a few times on the table as it cools in case a void is forming. The idea is to "burp" any air bubbles forming together into a void to the surface. I cool the candles slowly.

When cooling GG, I "wreck" the top (photos & technique are explained in detail in old posts in the veggie wax forum) and interior of the candle so that any forming voids are filled. I cool palm wax candles slowly as well. I heat gun the tops to smooth them when the candle has cooled.

Some people don't think voids in candles are a big deal; they apparently haven't had one "torch" or catch on fire because of air pockets - yet.

I don't take chances with safety. Others are certainly free to do what they want to do... It takes more energy to write about it than it does to just do it. So far, I have never had any candle catch fire, but I have had some palm wax candles (container & pillar waxes of all kinds) hit a void and become torches. If I did not monitor my candles regularly while burning, who knows what might have happened in those cases? I extinguished the candles, trimmed the wick and went on burning them without further incident. Paying close attention to open flames is just common sense...

Anothr observation about Stabilo wicks: Self-trimming wicks don't self trim well when they are clogged with carbon deposits or uncombusted material. Certain FOs and dyes are worse about causing this than are others. I don't try to fit square pegs into round holes. If a certain dye or FO clogs the wick on my candle, I either find another supplier for that FO or abandon it for one of the thousands of other pleasing FOs or dyes I haven't tried. If I really like it, I might go so far as to test it with no dye and see if that helps. Someone else might bash their brains out against a brick wall trying to make a certain FO work in their candles because it's popular or the season's best seller... none for me, thanks. It's a big world out there and I'll never have enough time to make ALL the fragrances that are pleasing to me into candles!

I was actually watching a mythbusters about grease fires last night

bearmnt - I missed that episode, but have been totally amazed (and horrified!) at the videos on YouTube of candle "bombs", exploding grease fires, etc. Since we make products that have an open flame, I think it's really important for all of us to SEE and understand how FAST a huge fire can happen and under what circumstances. I don't think any of us would want to make a candle that caused harm or hardship to anyone else! We can't protect our customers from themselves, but we CAN try to learn & understand the risks to help us do the best we can to make "safe" products. It's well worth the extra time of testing and raising customer awareness to never have the upsetting experiences Pristina (and others) have had! There's no guarantee, once a customer has one of our candles in their possession, that they'll use it wisely. All we can do is try our best!

[bearmnt]

stella- i looked for the whole episode but couldnt find it. but I was able to find snippets of the episode. its from the kitchen nightmares episode

this is the one that shows the reaction between the water and oil

this one is a small scale of the actual experiment

its really interesting to see