1st Pour GG Palm

[TxSioux]

Here's a photo of the trio I poured last night:

Sorry I'm not a better photographer - it's hell trying to get a shot w/o a reflection off the glass. Other than that ... here's what I learned:

Palm is less forgiving than soy. Since the temps are so much higher than soy, you don't have a lot of time to screw around, so you better be ready to roll. It's a small window between heating wax, adding fo, & pouring. Also, I now understand what Stella meant when she said palm is either liquid or solid, there's no soft stage in between. This wax creates a fast, hard film as soon as it leaves the pot. This also taught me that I didn't clean my containers very well! I could see the problem as soon as I was pouring & it's very evident in the cube.

The flowerpot container came closest to a good pattern. The Libbey cube is a red hot mess, but I'm not entirely sure what went wrong. The crystal pattern started forming from the top & then just stopped. Shouldn't it form from the bottom up? That's what the flowerpot did. The loose votive was done in a Dixie Cup. It's ok, but (again, like Stella said) it probably didn't work too well being in a paper 'mold' -- it has a definite pattern, but not a true, showy GG pattern. I'm going to give silicone a try next. All of the tops have a jump line & I knew they would. I poked & stirred the cooling wax twice, to release any air pockets. I was more interested in pouring the small amount of remaining wax than I was about topping off properly.

So, I really learned a LOT & have a great base for my next battle! LOL Can anyone tell me where I went wrong w/ the cube? It's the 10-11oz size. All 3 were cooled side-by-side on a metal rack in the oven.

BTW, I started burning all 3 tonight & am fairly certain I have all 3 overwicked ... but I'm going to keep going to see what happens. I'm using CSN's, which are very new for me - I've always used zinc's. Aren't these self-trimming? I have 2 that are very long & showing no sign of curling. Should I trim them or let them be?

Thanks for any help -- Susan. (who is feeling like a newbie!!)

[Stella1952]

Ackshully, Susan, I think the dixie cup one (the one on the far right?) has the best pattern. But the photo is little and my eyes are old (did I mention the brewskies?), so there's plenty of room for error there... :embarasse

The crystal pattern started forming from the top & then just stopped. Shouldn't it form from the bottom up? That's what the flowerpot did.

When the heating is uneven, the pattern will generally form from the hottest part to the coolest. Too much heat (and too slow of cooling) is as bad as not enough - there's a happy median for which to shoot...

Palm is less forgiving than soy

That's relative... While you do have to have your stuff pretty much gathered in one sock, so long as the candle cools evenly and is poured at a hot enough temp, it comes out BEEYOUTEEFULL! Soy can tease you into thinking you did well only to frost like Jack a few days later...:undecided

Speaking for myself, I think those look great for your first GG attempt. Sorry I can't help you with wicking - I use CDNs. BTW, I generally wait at least 48 hours to test palm wax, not only for the cure but also to allow the crystals to harden off. They will be much harder after 5-7 days than they are in the first 24-48 hours.

Did you preheat the oven to 150-180°F? If not, the oven would have been too large to have smoothed out the cooling. A cardboard box over the candles on a wire cooling rack works better for a small number of candles, IMHO.

I'm going to give silicone a try next.

Please remember that GG is a container palm wax formula and is not designed to release from molds. For best results, if you are gonna use molds, get some pillar wax for them.

I think those candles look GREAT, especially for a first pour... I'm glad you took the palm wax plunge! Did you have fun?

[TxSioux]

When I said palm is less forgiving than soy, I meant the pouring process. In all fairness, I'm sure I feel that way cause I did soy for 7 yrs & have that down pat. I don't need to use a thermometer w/ soy & can let it sit on a low temp & wander off, whereas palm ... I had to dust off the thermometer & no play around time w/ these high temps. I hate not having the groove!

I understand the even cooling temp, but expected all 3 candles to either flop or succeed together. Both votives cooled evenly, but not the cube, which was on the rack between them. The oven had been pre-heated on lowest setting - 150 - & oven light left on. Could the results be the difference in sizes? If so, I would expect the votives (being smaller) to cool more quickly & throw off the crystallization. And the larger cube would hold heat & crystallize evenly. Obviously I'm wrong! LOL

Dang, I hate that I should have waited to burn. Does this totally screw up my test burns? I mean, can I let the candles set up a couple more days & pick back up ... or has the 1st burn destroyed an accurate assessment? I just ended a 5 hr burn. The flowerpot had a really pretty shell, showing off the pattern. The cube was very close to showing a pattern on the flat sides of the container, but still heavy hangup on the corners. The loose votive blew out the top & filled the container. Burning fine, but no longer pretty through the glass.

I totally dig the palm, it's just so showy & the ct/ht is way better than soy. It's like scent in soy is kinda buried, but in palm it seems real prominent. Kinda like the difference between having poor eyesight & then putting on glasses ... only with scent!! ROFL It just seems really clean, like palm really works w/ the fo to carry it better.

Susan.

[topofmurrayhill]

Congratulations on your first pour! I wish I could see them better, but they look good from a distance.

It looks like your cube cooled too slowly relative to the smaller containers. That's the reasonable explanation for the difference. I've only tried two palm waxes so far, but I'm already getting the impression that the insulation and slow cooling obsession is based on a myth. With one of my waxes, it does no harm but is totally unnecessary. I can pour into a cold mold at 185 and cool in the open and the candles come out the same. With the other wax, slowing down the cooling or pouring too hot messes up the crystal pattern or causes surface frost. So I'd start by pouring those at 190 like the instructions say and cooling them in a draft-free place in the open. A lot of confusion can stem from trying to solve problems you don't have.

BTW, I generally wait at least 48 hours to test palm wax, not only for the cure but also to allow the crystals to harden off. They will be much harder after 5-7 days than they are in the first 24-48 hours.

I worry a little bit about facts versus vague impressions. Around here, the latter have a strong tendency to morph into facts and then rules. So I'm wondering if there is a solid basis for suggesting that palm wax gets harder in the course of several says and that it might make a difference burning them after a day versus 2 or 3 days. So far I've not noticed a difference in wax consistency or burn and I don't want to start following unneccesary rules because someone just throws something out there, you know?

[Candybee]

I think your first try looks pretty good. Another GG convert!

I don't use the libbey cubes but they sure are cute. I wonder if you try heating the inside with the heat gun or pour hotter if that may help with the crystalization. I pour my candles at 195 and get great crystalization patterns. It occurred to me with the thick bottom the wax may get a better chance if you poured hotter into a slightly warmed container.

Also, I don't use the oven but let them cool on a rack on the countertop. No box covering them.

[soy327]

What CSN wick did you use in the square container? I also do mine just like Candybee does only without the rack, mine cool on a formica counter top.

Stella, I do believe they need to cure and palm does harden more over time. That is only my experience.

Those Candles look great.:yay:

[Candybee]

Another trick I use to keep my wax hot when I am mixing in FO and dye is to put my pour pot on a heated griddle. If the FO lowers the temp I let it come back up to 195 before pouring. You mentioned that you had a short time window and this will help with that giving you more time while keeping the wax hot. I leave the thermometer in the pour pot to eyeball the temp from time to time making sure I am not over or under heating.

[TxSioux]

Top - what you're saying about cooling is following my thoughts & supports the results I had. The votives cooled faster than the cube & crystallized, but the cube held heat too long & washed out on the pattern. I didn't warm my containers & the only reason I went for the oven -- I was too lazy to dig out a rack & got nervous about setting them on a surface that *might* pull heat. I'm certainly willing to take any theory & give it a go!! With soy, I found a LOT of things people said did not work for me & I often offered opinions that went against the 'rules'! Thanks for the input, I like coloring outside the lines, but appreciate hearing what works for others to use as a guide. What about these CSN's ... should I let them be, or give them a little snip? All 3 have a curved top, but are right at 1/2" long. The flames were higher than I'm used to, but I've been leaving everything alone.

Candybee - I didn't even think about the thick glass bottom on the cube. I poured at 190, but maybe the thick bottom is what held the heat too long & prevented the pattern on the bottom of that one. I'm going to set it out next time to see how it changes things. I certainly don't have to battle the temp being too cool here! LOL

Soy - I used a 16. Do you think that's a decent start? I read where everyone thought the CS chart was usually a size too big, but I wanted to see if I could get the corners. Thoughts? I can see a logic to palm setting a bit harder w/ time, but I question if the extra time affects a burn test. I always let soy cure for scent, but didn't see where time changed the burn properties of the wax. Stella & I share a lot of the same weather/temp/humidity, so I respect her opinion on quality conditions. I always found the Tx weather to have a strong bearing on my results w/ soy.

Thanks to all -- I REALLY appreciate the opinions!

Susan.

[soy327]

I think the 16 is a good start am eager to see what happens. Please keep us updated:yay:I have the same jar wanted to try it but square:confused:

[Stella1952]

Both votives cooled evenly, but not the cube, which was on the rack between them.

Sue, were the votives close enough to the cube to have kept it warmer for longer? Just a thought... Spacing when cooling does have an effect, especially when making only a few candles...

The temp in my neck of the woods is pretty reasonable these days so cooling in the oven should not be necessary. During spring, I usually space out my GG candles on a rack & throw a big box over them. As the season heats up, the box will not be needed and I'll simply throw a paper towel loosely over the tops to protect from drafts & air conditioning.

People need to use their own judgment when cooling palm wax candles. If one's candle area is pretty cool and drafty, the oven is a great idea. If the room is really cold, a styrofoam cooler works. The environment is very important and there just isn't any one best way to accomplish this in each individual situation. That's why many suggestions are generally given when people have problems with uneven crystal patterns. Some folks take this to the "nth" degree when that is completely unnecessary. I have been pouring palm wax for a long time and have learned to vary my procedures as needed on any given day.

Does this totally screw up my test burns?

I don't know that the hardness of the wax crystals is sufficient to throw off wick tests. I mentioned it because it is a physical property that MAY have an effect on wicking. I wick test and test for throw at the same time, so I wait to be sure I am giving the candle enough time to demonstrate its properties most reliably. I used to wait 24-48 hours to test, but these days, I wait 5-7 days (both for soy & palm waxes).

I totally dig the palm, it's just so showy & the ct/ht is way better than soy. It's like scent in soy is kinda buried, but in palm it seems real prominent.

I totally agree about the appearance... soy wax looks opaque and boring to me. :undecided I think the underlying scent of soy wax itself can interfere with some fragrances. Sharp, pungent scents come through more clearly in palm wax than they do soy, as you said. I do like soy better for "bakery" type fragrances... I think that, in general, soy holds its cold throw better over time than does palm, although I can think of (and smell) a few notable exceptions... Edited April 4, 2010 by Stella1952

[rebeccajo99]

They look nice and A LOT better than my first palm tarts that I made. For my tarts, I got the best crystalization with a warmed mold and a box covering them while they cooled.

Best of luck in your testing!!! Every time I see pic of GG, I want to try it more and more and more.

[soy327]

Well Rebecca, Just take the jump, you'll love it.:laugh2:

[Stella1952]

I worry a little bit about facts versus vague impressions. Around here, the latter have a strong tendency to morph into facts and then rules.

Palm wax hardening over a period of about a week is not a "vague impression," Top, it's an unmorphed, demonstrable fact. Soy wax hardens, too, although not to the same extent. Palm wax cracks, "dings" and crushes quite easily when newly poured, so I leave it alone until it's hardened off. I got tired of the "vague impression" of ruining lovely palm pillars just because I couldn't keep my mitts off them when they were too "green" to handle! Whether the hardening has a significant effect on wicking, I do not know as I have not tested this. I mentioned the hardening property because it MAY have an effect on wicking. I have noticed that older palm wax candles do seem to burn slightly differently than do newer ones. Newer ones tend to burn more quickly.

So I'm wondering if there is a solid basis for suggesting that palm wax gets harder

Nah, I just made that up for sh*ts & grins... Sorry for the sarcasm, but if there were NOT a "solid basis" for making that statement, why the heck would I say it? :rolleyes2

...and that it might make a difference burning them after a day versus 2 or 3 days.

Probably waiting 2-3 days wouldn't matter because the wax is still "soft" then. I personally wait a lot longer than that to test my candles. I have written many times that I wait at least a week to wick/scent test soy & palm wax candles. People howl when I say that, so these days, I simply try to encourage folks to slow down and try to wait for a couple of days... I test both throw and wicking at the same time. I learned for myself how much difference cure time makes to scent throw so I choose to wait. If others don't want to wait, don't think it's necessary to wait, are too busy to wait, have a philosophical, religious or medical prohibition against waiting, then for Pete's sake - don't wait! No one is FORCING anyone to do anything nor is anyone being told that they MUST do a danged thing!

...So far I've not noticed a difference in wax consistency or burn

Pardon me, but you made your first palm pillar one month ago...

Just because you pour a palm wax candle a certain way in New York does NOT mean you will necessarily get the same results down here in Rural Hades and vice versa!! It may be that in dryer, cooler climates, palm wax will harden faster - I dunno, but I DO know for a fact that it takes about a week where I live, in my house.

...and I don't want to start following unneccesary rules because someone just throws something out there, you know?

So don't. Keep testing and making palm wax candles and decide for yourself. That's exactly what I have always done and highly recommend. Each person shares their own experiences, techniques, ideas and methods. Since when does that constitute making "RULES"?

Do we need a disclaimer/warning label for all posts here?

Warning:

No one method, product or ingredient works for everyone in all situations and locales. One size does not fit all. Results are NOT guaranteed. Suggestions may or may not work for each individual. Opinions in individual posts do not reflect the opinions of anyone other than the person posting them. Take advice at your own risk.

Caution: Product will be hot after heating. Your mileage may vary.

[topofmurrayhill]

There's no need for the smarmy rant. I've had to painstakingly unlearn countless things that I picked up from people who've being doing stuff for years, so I've come to understand that's irrelevant. You made a statement that got Susan worried that she had burned her candle too early. Whether a day versus a week changes the burn results is an interesting question with a simple yes or no answer. But you haven't tested it, which is all I need to know. That means there's no basis for a conclusion. You say we all should come to our own conclusion, which I guess means that you can do the talking and we can do the testing.

[Stella1952]

Once again in yet another thread, my statements do not suit you and your nasty remarks continue unabated. I'm sick of taking your crap, Top.

[rebeccajo99]

Well Rebecca, Just take the jump, you'll love it.:laugh2:

The more I test palm tarts the more I love the cool patterns that it makes. Maybe I will just have to order a 10 lb bag and give it a try the next time I order stuff. The part that is holding me back with palm containers is having to poke the releif holes after it sets up a little bit and repouring. I only have a short time to pour candles while my boys are taking naps and don't know if that will give me enough time. I may have to wait a year or two until my youngest knows to stay out of the kitchen while mommy is working on candles. He likes to be right by my feet all the time.

[topofmurrayhill]

I'm not making nasty remarks. This is a practical issue and you choose to take it personally because I questioned whether there was a good basis for your advice to wait before wick testing.

When a fragranced paraffin pillar comes to room temperature, the cystal structure of the wax continues to change significantly for at least 72 hours and more slowly for some time longer. The practical effect is that the wax becomes more porous and holds FO better. After a candle chemist told me about it this, I tested the "cure time" effect on fragrance retention and found that mottled pillars sweat noticeably less over time. However, I found no difference in the burn, so it was not relevant to wick testing.

The question of whether a day versus a week makes a difference testing wicks in palm is valid and maybe even important, but offering advice that it's better to wait should probably be based on a test rather than on speculation. That's just the kind of thing that becomes a "fact" as it's passed one person to another. That was my original point.

[TxSioux]

You two are going to scare the kids! I know we all read our own perceived tone into any given post, but I really am LOL right now!! I hope neither of you gets so agitated w/ the other that you shut down, cause I really respect both opinions & actually find a wealth of information in the process of arguing semantics. I'd like to think that no one here is hanging their hat on anything suggested in any post. There are too many variables & everything should be viewed as a guideline for your own testing. But hey, how about that palm wax!?! FWIW - I've hit 9 hrs of burn & the wicks seem to be calming down. The cube is starting to work its way out to the corners, but I'm going to be shocked if I nailed this one right out of the box. I was never able to single wick this container in soy, but I'd feel like a rock-star if this wick catches up. The container does narrow a bit at the base, so it's fun to anticipate. BTW, I did take a little snip off the wicks. I probably should have let it go, cause most people don't follow our instruction & trim.

Susan.

(I'll skip the group hug & take a drink)

Edited April 5, 2010 by TxSioux

[Candybee]

With my experience the sides don't catch up until about halfway down the candle. Then the wax all seems to melt together during the last half and I get good wax consumption until the end.

So I am not surprised that some of the sides haven't caught up yet. I think once you get halfway down your test candle you will see much better wax consumption.

[soy327]

txsioux, Is that 3-3hr burns? and are you going to keep track of time to the bottom? I would be interested in the findings. Sounds like a good burn so far.

[TxSioux]

I wanted to do 4 hr burns, but lost track of time - so it's a 4 hr + a 5 hr burn. I will have a total time for the whole candle & then I'll test a power burn - once I get that container wicked right. I'll try to post you some pics tonight & this time I'll make them thumbnails, so you can click them & see better.

Susan.

[soy327]

great thanks

[TxSioux]

Finished burning these & don't think I'm happy w/ the CSN's I have to work with. All burned quite hot, the flames never calmed down, & didn't get a satisfactory final burntime. The cube had a lot of hangup left, but I'll keep trying. Here's a couple pics of how it ended.

[Candybee]

That is a lot of wax leftover. Are you going to try some new wicks? Tell us how it goes and good luck.

[TxSioux]

Yeah, weighed in at 3.6oz of hangup - that's a lot! Guess it's time to settle in for a long round of the dreaded wick elimination testing. <grrrr>

Susan.