Wick Sizes

[ProudMarineMom]

Ok, probably have a dumb question and I apologize. Either my brain is fried from being swamped at work or I'm just not thinking clearly. As a note, I use GB464, UV, USA and liquid dye in my candles.

I have a pretty good wick collection, Eco, LX, HTP, CD, CDN, CSN, Simply Soy and probably some others. For my testing so far I get the best HT from the Eco's. However, for some fragrances there are times when I need a wick that is in between two sizes.

So, my question is, with all of these wicks, how do you determine the comparable sizes among brands. Such as, what is the same size wick in an HTP for say an Eco 6. I have the links or downloaded the wick charts so i have a starting point for the container size, but I have no idea which wick is larger, smaller, etc. among the different brands.

What I want to be able to do is if an Eco 8 is too small and an Eco 10 too large, determine what is the next wick up from the other brands that may be in between the two. Do you have to look at the Yield/Roc chart and put wicks in order using that? Am I missing something, not making sense, C all of the above? I guess I haven't done enough testing to be well versed in how to size the wicks. And, I'm not sure what to read to help with that.

Top, if you happen to read this thread, your topic on Feather Palm testing has a good discussion on trying to find a good wick size and I must admit I'm a little lost. Have you guys figured out the progressions just by trial and error? (Beautiful feather palm pillar btw, I'm jealous...)

Can anybody point me in the right direction?? I have tried google searching the forum, but not hitting on the right keywords.

Thanks for your help and your time.

[topofmurrayhill]

It usually comes down to some wild-ass guessing. Even when you have experience with certain wicks, they burn differently from each other and the burns can change with different waxes and fragrances.

The wick charts can inform your guessing when the wicks are of a similar basic type and the testing was done by the same company--in other words, almost never. Maybe they contribute a little to the "weight of the evidence."

For flat-braided wick types, the "yield" number in the wick charts can actually be a useful guessing tool because it helps indicate which wicks are similar in physical thickness. You can also do your best to eyeball that.

We all wish there were a simpler answer, but in the end it comes down to burning (literally and figuratively) some time and money in testing.

[jeni18]

As a note, I use GB464, UV, USA and liquid dye in my candles.

Hi there, I'm glad you posted this. I also use GB464 and am looking for wick suggestions. Would you mind telling me where you get the USA and what benefits you think it gives you? I'm having awful problems with frosting in the GB464 and sometimes throw problems as well.

TIA

Jennifer

[ProudMarineMom]

Sorry for the late reply, had family in for a visit last week.

I got the USA from The Candlemaker's Store. Just By Nature and a couple of others carry it as well. The reason I picked it up is because I got a batch of 464 that wasn't quite right. No matter what I did, it would never harden and looked like mashed potatoes. Even after a week. USA adds firmness to a candle and it does make a difference. Not convinced it really helps with scent throw but I do think it helps with smoothing out the tops.

Don't think USA will help frosting, but I could be wrong. That could be the dye, if you color your candles, or a dye/fragrance combination. I'm still pretty new at this as well and doing testing. I seem to get less frosting when I pour around 100 degrees. But, the tops aren't as nice. I get nicer tops at 115 degrees but sometimes get sinkholes. So, I'm still trying to learn a method that works best for me.

To help hot throw, I did try using Coconut Oil. But, I seemed to get more frosting and uneven tops, regardless of pour temp. Stopped using the CO until I can consistently make a candle I'm happy with. Sometimes I think I got it down and can make the same candle 2 or 3 times with good results. Then I make the fourth.... I think I need to pay more attention to the weather, we've had an unusual winter and early spring.

Not sure if that helps, just what I have learned in my limited experience. This forum has a lot of great information and some very nice and experienced people willing to help. You only need ask.... after searching the site for previous posts!

[jeni18]

Hi there, thanks for the response. Believe me I have spent an incredible amount of time searching and reading past posts!

I've never poured below 120, I'm going to give that a try. I'm in an experimental phase now too - new waxes and wicks.

Thanks again.

[Dusty]

I also use GB464 with CO & liquid dyes. I had so much trouble with frosting no matter what temp I poured at. The frosting would occur usually within a month or so and with some colour and fragrance combinations frosting occured within days. I no longer colour my soy for that reason - I use my dyes with my palm pillars instead. Seen some great coloured soy candles and wish I could get those results without frosting (or very little frosting).

However, my candles do have a great hot and cold throw - important to let them cure - I usually cure them for about 5 - 7 days before testing! BTW I use CDN wicks.

[jeni18]

Hi Dusty, I am in the process of testing CB Xcel to see if their promise of less frosting is true but I have a feeling based on all the other posts that it won't be. One day I'd like to try to sell what I make and I don't know how much people are willing to buy colorless candles. I personally don't care, once it starts burning the color is irrelevant, but that's just me. But I see frosting even on dye free candles.

Can I ask, do you ever make tealights, or very small jars? If so, which wick do you find gives you the best hot throw? I use ECO 4 for a very small 2 oz Libbey Whisper jar, and that seems to work well. However, I've been using TL-15 for tealights and there is a lot of wax is left at the end of burning, and I only get a good throw with the heavier oils, even when I burn 10 tealights at once. So I'm going to spend the weekend testing large TL's, ECO, CD, LX and HTP wicks, and various heating and pouring temps, but if you wouldn't mind telling me which CDN wicks you recommend I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!

Jennifer

[nadiap]

which CDN wicks you recommend I'd really appreciate it.

For the clear case tealights I always use CDN3s (33mm) and for the larger silver casing tealights I use CDN4s (33m). I've made 1000s of these and never had a problem, either non-scented or using various FOs.

Hope this helps with your tealight question :-)

[mzpickles]

Can I ask, do you ever make tealights, or very small jars? If so, which wick do you find gives you the best hot throw? I use ECO 4 for a very small 2 oz Libbey Whisper jar, and that seems to work well. Jennifer

Jennifer, I've been using the whisper jars (aren't they cute?) but I found the ECO 4 to be too large for them. Jars got waaaay too hot and the melt pool was too deep. I ramped back to an ECO 2 with those and it's almost perfect. Just an fyi. I'm using a 464/6006 blend, 85/15% respectively.

[jeni18]

Jennifer, I've been using the whisper jars (aren't they cute?) but I found the ECO 4 to be too large for them. Jars got waaaay too hot and the melt pool was too deep. I ramped back to an ECO 2 with those and it's almost perfect. Just an fyi. I'm using a 464/6006 blend, 85/15% respectively.

Thanks MZ, that is really good to know. I have some ECO 2's and I'm going to give them a try. I have been toying with the idea of trying the 6006, I already bought some 4630, if that doesn't work out the 6006 is next.

Yes I LOVE the whisper jars. They are the reason I started making my own candles. I loved them at Illuminations and when they went out of business no one else had them, so I thought I'll just make them myself!

Thanks again!

[jeni18]

For the clear case tealights I always use CDN3s (33mm) and for the larger silver casing tealights I use CDN4s (33m). I've made 1000s of these and never had a problem, either non-scented or using various FOs.

Hope this helps with your tealight question :-)

Yes Nadia it does! I'm going to order some CDN3's right now.

By the way, my first Xcel test was not successful. I made tealights with ECO tlite wicks, TL 31 (CS) and TL28 (CS) and the wick drowned in all of them. I used an oil that I had previously successfully used in GB464. I cured the tealights for 72 hrs, I'm going to try them again in a couple of days. Also gonna try the next batch with HTP and CD wicks, maybe they'll be better.

ETA - I'm going to buy the CDN wicks if I can find them -- not seeing them anywhere in the US so far...

Edited April 18, 2010 by jeni18

[mzpickles]

Yes I LOVE the whisper jars. They are the reason I started making my own candles. I loved them at Illuminations and when they went out of business no one else had them, so I thought I'll just make them myself!

OMG! That's exactly why I was trying them out! I too mourn the loss of Illuminations, mainly for a couple of their scents but I also liked the classy presentation! When Yankme closed them down it sort of drove me into making my own candles. I've only tried the little whisper jars, I may move on to some larger ones eventually!

[jeni18]

OMG! That's exactly why I was trying them out! I too mourn the loss of Illuminations, mainly for a couple of their scents but I also liked the classy presentation! When Yankme closed them down it sort of drove me into making my own candles. I've only tried the little whisper jars, I may move on to some larger ones eventually!

HAHAHA - MZ I sent you a PM!

[ProudMarineMom]

For the clear case tealights I always use CDN3s (33mm) and for the larger silver casing tealights I use CDN4s (33m). I've made 1000s of these and never had a problem, either non-scented or using various FOs.

Hope this helps with your tealight question :-)

Nadiap,

Can I ask where you are finding the smaller CDN's? I seem to find the CD's in that size, but not the CDN's. Right now, only place I really know of is Just By Nature, Bitter Creek and Candle Cocoon. Is there a site I'm missing? Inquiring minds want to know!!!

[jeni18]

Nadiap,

Can I ask where you are finding the smaller CDN's? I seem to find the CD's in that size, but not the CDN's. Right now, only place I really know of is Just By Nature, Bitter Creek and Candle Cocoon. Is there a site I'm missing? Inquiring minds want to know!!!

Another inquiring mind here - seems easy to find them in Europe and Australia but I don't see any in the US. I encountered the same thing with ECO .2 and .5. Strange.

[topofmurrayhill]

You can get the small ECO spooled from CandleScience. You can get it spooled or as custom wick assemblies from Candlewic.

Smaller CDN sizes can be purchased spooled or as assemblies from the larger distributors, but you'd have to buy a lot. I don't think you really need the small CDNs because the chemical treatment and general design of HTP is pretty similar to CDN--plus HTP is cheaper and more widely available.

[ProudMarineMom]

Thanks Top, always appreciate the information. I'll keep that in mind. I just saw your CD vs CDN burn comparison and it's nice to know I'm on the right track. I was getting the mushrooming and uneven melt pool in the soy with the CDN's and took those wicks out of my testing.

However, I have been trying to successfully wick some Dragon's Blood with the high side of liquid dye amounts and need a wick with a little more oomph. I have tried my Eco's, LX's, CD's and CDN's and not quite happy with any of them. For one of the containers I would like to try a step down from the CDN8, which is the smallest I have.

I have also been playing with the Glass Glow Palm wax and a couple of the containers are on the small side. Would be nice to test the smaller wicks. But, I'm not ready to buy them in the quantities that the big distributors want.

Might need to really look at the HTP's again and do some better comparison tests in the 464. Bought those for testing two or three soy waxes ago before I found the ECO's, which are my wick of choice at the moment. I remember the HTP's had a very nice curl and self-trim, just didn't like the HT with the wax I was using.

[jeni18]

You can get the small ECO spooled from CandleScience. You can get it spooled or as custom wick assemblies from Candlewic.

Smaller CDN sizes can be purchased spooled or as assemblies from the larger distributors, but you'd have to buy a lot. I don't think you really need the small CDNs because the chemical treatment and general design of HTP is pretty similar to CDN--plus HTP is cheaper and more widely available.

Thanks Top, I appreciate that advice, I've got a ton of HTP already and would hate to buy yet another line. So I won't bother looking for CDN.

Regarding the small ECO, I have seen them available in spools from Candle Science, I just wanted to try a few out, I wouldn't want to buy a whole spool and all that that entails before I know if they're good. In the end I don't think I want them anyway, based on my testing I think they'd be too weak. I have "ECO tealight wicks" from Lone Star, I called them and they don't know what size they are, but my bet is they are ECO .5.

Thanks again.

[topofmurrayhill]

ProudMarineMom, I happen to have spooled CDN 7 if you want to try it. If it worked, however, you still wouldn't have a good way to get it except maybe 1000 wicks at a time or a 1 lb spool.

I've been testing both CDN and HTP in palm and gotten pretty similar results from them, so there's a chance you could find your Glass Glow size in HTP. Of course, if you don't already have HTP lying around and had to buy another wick, it could make sense just to go with CSN. You can't really beat it for palm wax.

Jeni, I also have plenty of spooled ECO .5 and .2 that you could try, but I have doubts that they're big enough for any veggie application beyond maybe a tealight. There are so few sizes down at the low end of the ECO range and each one is a big jump from the next. For small wicks you should probably focus on a line that has more size options.

In any case, if either of you needs an odd wick that I have, drop me a line via PM.

Edited April 19, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[jeni18]

Top, I think you're right. I think those ECO .2 and .5 would be too small, I've had whatever Lone Star calls ECO tealights drown in two oils so far, so I'm not going to try anything smaller. Also I think I'm going to avoid testing anything that's not readily available. I've got a bunch of HTP's and CD's I'm going to try, plus the CS TL Series; I'm sure I'll get good results from some of those.

I really appreciate the offer of a wick, that is very kind of you.

Jennifer

[ProudMarineMom]

Top, I second what Jennifer said, thank you so much for the offer and I might take you up on that. However, I'm going to try your suggestion with the HTP wicks first since I do have quite a few of those.

I don't think I tried the HTP in the palm. Got some samples of CSN's along with the CD's and tried the LX's. My first container was with an ECO wick and haven't tried one of those since, no joy there. Probably should pour a few using the CSN's and HTP's and really pay attention.

With all of the reading I did on this site and elsewhere, it seemed like the CDN's were the 'be all end all' for palm so I don't think I gave the other wicks a fair chance. Was too caught up in trying to find the CDN's and probably convinced myself nothing else was going to work. Kinda like a kid, you want what you can't have...

I would like to thank you again for taking the time to answer both Jennifer and my questions, it is very appreciated. I also want to say thank you for the candle comparisons, burn tests, various other test results and candle data that you and others share with us on the board. For us noob's, well at least me anyway, it let's me know if I am on the right track, nowhere near it, or gives me ideas on something to try when I'm stuck. As the emoticon so eloquently says...

[topofmurrayhill]

It's natural to try and narrow down the testing options based on the information that you've heard. I've tried to avoid this for the palm testing and be pretty deliberate about trying a wide range of possibilities. That turned out to be really educational.

I originally expected that CSN and CDN would be very much the same type of product. In reality, it turns out that there's nothing quite like CSN that I'm aware of in the USA. It really seems to be tailor-made for the application--just as they claim. It was surprising to find that CDN is more in the ballpark of plain old American wicking. Or another way of looking at it is that I have a new appreciation for how adaptable Atkins & Pearce wicks are designed to be.

It turns out that CDN only has a "strong" chemical treatment compared to the "weak" chemical treatment of CD. "Weak" doesn't imply anything bad though. By virtue of being designed for viscous waxes and having relatively weak chemical treatments to help them trim, CD and ECO are both essentially tailor-made to be good soy wicks. Those two are really in a class together--and neither is compatible with palm wax.

Like HTP, CDN is only partially resistant to frying in palm wax. However, it's still very useful for the purpose. It means you have to bump up the wick size, but it turns out that CDN has a good selection of sizes in the right range for wicking palm pillars.

I'm glad if my efforts help you out. I hope they also enourage more people to try things and show the results. We advance here by putting our common wisdom to the test so that it can be refined and updated rather than just passed along.