pillar flops

[lrbd]

very excited having fun until I burn them . here is what they look like before ..... I think pretty for a newbie and then you see what happens every time . Is this what you guys call a blow out?

[Candybee]

They look lovely. Maybe try wicking down. Is that palm wax? And what wicks and size are you using?

[lrbd]

yes it is crystal palm and iam using cdn 12 the 10 seemed too small . I think they are pretty but when i look on this forum they look like crap against some of you seasoned candle makers . Thanks for the kind words any any advice

[Stella1952]

Yep - das a blow out. Here's what I know about this:

The "secret" to a perfect, even shell is to keep the HEAT from the wick centered for an even burn. Since CDs & CDNs have a lopsided burn you have to turn the pillar and/or keep the melt pool centered by pushing at the base of the wick in the direction away from the curl (the curl side is the hotter side). I twist my wicks to help with this (this has never made any difference in the performance of the wick in my candles except to make them burn in a circular manner). Also, keep in mind that as the pillar burns down, there is more heat concentrated down in there just like in a container.

Keep your wick trimmed! You want a slow flame, about 1/2"-3/4" tall. Before I light the wick, I trim to between 1/8" and 1/4". If the melt pool hits a void, the melt pool will drain into the cavity and expose too much wick. This is why "wrecking" to prevent those cavities is soooo important!

Watch for the development of thin spots near the level of the melt pool. If you see this, center the wick, extinguish, allow to completely cool, trim the wick, then relight. Once a blowout happens, that's it. The air currents will not be the same in the pillar and the blowout will get bigger because the hot air is rushing out of the pillar there instead of going straight up and making the sides of the shell "weep."

Now this may sound like a lot of babysitting, but honestly, it is not once you become proficient at making sure there are no voids in the candle when you pour it and keeping the heat centered.

I generally don't powerburn a pillar the first few times it's lit - I follow the 1 hour per inch of diameter rule of thumb (which others say is bogus). BUT eventually, my darker side takes over and I just light it and let it burn for hours and hours on end. So long as I pay a little attention every hour or so to keeping the HEAT centered in the pillar, it'll burn straight and true all the way to the end. Every room has a slight draft, so remembering to turn the pillar a quarter turn every hour or two will go a long way toward helping the candle burn evenly.

And for those who will say, "a customer will never do all that," it's the same with any pillar. If someone wants to burn a candle with no regard to maintenance, they will not receive the best burn and satisfaction from it. If they DO follow directions, they will get the same results that I get with very minimal effort. Most of my pillar customers manage to burn their pillars with no blowouts and enjoy the shells long after the wick has burned down.

Take heart - you are new to this! This one is typical of my pillars and had burned all night long - I probably stumbled off to bed just before daylight and shot the photos around 9:30AM...

PS The CDN 12 works for me in nearly all 3" pillars.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Stella1952

[nursenancy]

I don't think they look like crap at all! I love the layers and you have very nice crystallization there! :smiley2:

I like LX wicks for pillars, JMO. so far i've only done 4 inchers and i use mostly 24's

Edited February 7, 2010 by nursenancy

[Stella1952]

YES!! Those ARE beautiful!! Good job on them!! You've come a long way and are well on your way to making perfect palm pillars!

[lrbd]

First of all thank you very much. Second STELLA i never thought I hear from you today . I figured you would be out dancing in the streets .

I have to say I did everything you said in your post. I guess just not well enough . I wrecked, trimmed wick , rotated, and so on. i will keep trying. I can't argue that i am missing something here.

Nancy thank you for your advice as well these 3 inch too

I only have a few lx wicks 12 and 16 maybe i will order some and give a try .

It still is so much fun

Good luck today Stella

[Stella1952]

All my Saints stuff is in the dryer. I'm gettin' ready and plan to leave the house at 5 pm. After that, it's WHO DAT NATION until I awaken tomorrow!!:yay::yay:

[lrbd]

All my Saints stuff is in the dryer. I'm gettin' ready and plan to leave the house at 5 pm. After that, it's WHO DAT NATION until I awaken tomorrow!!:yay::yay:

Have a GREAT time be safe

[lrbd]

I like LX wicks for pillars, JMO. so far i've only done 4 inchers and i use mostly 24's

Nancy do you get a nice shell with this wick on the 4 inch ?

I suck at this I blew out another one today .

[Stella1952]

If the CDN 12s are blowin' out on you, try a 10.

[lrbd]

I made two with the Stearic a couple of nights ago ... I have night tried them yet. maybe that will help too. thanks much Laura

[quietgirl2004]

Stella, what is "wrecking"?

[Candybee]

I also use the LX wicks for my palm pillars. Thats where the LX really shines. Nice steady burn with no curling and they self trim (although I do trim them before each burn just to be sure).

I use an LX 24 or 22. If you want a shell to remain while the candle burns down use the 22. It leaves a shell like the photo of Stella's candle. If you use the 24 it will start consuming the entire candle while leaving a shorter thinner shell that burns down as the candle burns down. I prefer the 24 but the shell left by the 22 is also nice.

[Meridith]

You have the same types of blowouts we've experienced. We've got them with CSN 14 so we tested the 12's and still got them. Neither wick blew out every candle. Its weird because its like 2 out of 3 candles will burn great but the 3rd will get a blow out with both the 12 and 14's. I've been wanting to try the CDN10's but they've been OOS. Now we are going to see if adding steric helps the 12's since they do seem to burn nicely with the exception of that occasional blow-out. We'll be testing the CSN 11 as well. Do you have any CSNs you could try?

Hey Candybee - Thanks for the advice on the LX's. I think I have LX 22 and 24's. It seems that our blowouts with the CSN 12's have more to do with the wick leaning to the one side since that's where they happen. Maybe with the LX's we won't have blowouts. Once I'm over this stomach virus I have, I will be trying these wicks.

[Stella1952]

what is "wrecking"?

"Wrecking" is a term coined by another member for the technique I use to release/prevent air pocket formation in palm wax candles (votives, containers, pillars - all!), If you search the veggie wax forum using that term, I'm sure yu'll find links to all the previous threads written on this subject.

Adding stearic acid is a good thing for palm wax pillars. Another thing to keep in mind is the structure of the candle itself. If there are areas of dense crystals then areas of big, frosty ones with lots of airspace in them, guess which areas will burn more rapidly?

The candles which burn most evenly for me are the ones with the most even crystal structure. Y'all can change wicks 'til the cows come home, but I really don't think the type of wick is the biggest factor here - I've used 5 different wick types!! I think it's the size of the wick, how long & how EVENLY it burns, and the structure of the wax. It isn't ONE thing. Think in terms of heat distribution rather than wick type - how EVENLY the wick distributes its heat.

have more to do with the wick leaning to the one side since that's where they happen

Wicks with a self-trimming posture burn hotter on one side (the side the wick is curling to) than the other. Twisting the wick helps the wick to burn in a circular pattern and evens this out.

Burning in a hurricane tends to provide a more draft-free area for the candle to burn.

Turning the candle as it burns helps to keep the heat centered in the candle. So does adjusting the wick by pressing at its base in the direction AWAY from the hot side. If you have allowed the melt pool to become off center, you will have to compensate in the opposite direction to even things out. The KEY is not to let that get started.

It's hard to get a completely even distribution of heat inside a candle... seems like it always wants to be hotter in one spot or another. Candles have their own internal air currents goin' on which affect this. This is why you can't just light it and watch it burn until it blows out one side. You have to keep the heat centered. This does not take much effort, but it does require paying attention to the wick/flame/melt pool, how it's curling and how the sides of the candle are melting. HTH

[Candybee]

Thats why I like the LX wicks as I don't have a problem with them curling. You won't get a blowout with the LX22. You may get one with a LX24 if the candle wick is off center or you burn it more than 3-4 hours at a time.

I only use the CSNs for containers. Haven't tried the CDNs yet.

BTW-- I buy my LX spool wicking from CS if that makes any difference.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Candybee

[lrbd]

I use an LX 24 or 22.

I am at work sneaking on the site:tiptoe:

no time to look back but was wondering the size of your pillars

thanks

laura

[Stella1952]

You won't get a blowout with the LX22. You may get one with a LX24 if the candle wick is off center or you burn it more than 3-4 hours at a time.

You're a braver woman than I am!! I'd be scared to say that 'cause people's candle systems are so different...

I sure would like to see some photos of your pillars burning, especially down toward the bottom. Would be interesting to see the difference in how the LX wicks burn vs. CD/CDN...

[Candybee]

I am at work sneaking on the site:tiptoe:

no time to look back but was wondering the size of your pillars

thanks

laura

I use the standard 3" diameter pillar molds; sizes 4" and 6" tall.

[Meridith]

Wicks with a self-trimming posture burn hotter on one side (the side the wick is curling to) than the other. Twisting the wick helps the wick to burn in a circular pattern and evens this out.

Not trying to sound snipey here but I'm well aware of how a self trimming wick burns and to twist them to help. We do twist the wicks and we do turn the candle, but sometimes that doesn't help. Sometimes we've not stayed as vigilant as we should. This bending is one of the things about self trimming wicks I've never liked.

Burning in a hurricane tends to provide a more draft-free area for the candle to burn.

I think that is a great idea but not one that is reasonable to expect from a customer. I think most people aren't going to go to the expense and trouble to get a hurricane to burn their pillars in. Now maybe if you sell them together you'd get more people to do that but I still think there are those that won't go this route. So perhaps testing in one might not be as helpful as you want.

Turning the candle as it burns helps to keep the heat centered in the candle. So does adjusting the wick by pressing at its base in the direction AWAY from the hot side. If you have allowed the melt pool to become off center, you will have to compensate in the opposite direction to even things out. The KEY is not to let that get started.

It's hard to get a completely even distribution of heat inside a candle... seems like it always wants to be hotter in one spot or another. Candles have their own internal air currents goin' on which affect this. This is why you can't just light it and watch it burn until it blows out one side. You have to keep the heat centered. This does not take much effort, but it does require paying attention to the wick/flame/melt pool, how it's curling and how the sides of the candle are melting. HTH

I understand what you are saying (and we've done these things too) but I also question how reasonable this is to expect a customer to babysit a candle to this extent. I think (and this isn't based on any knowledge, and with palm wax, it not based on much experience) that it should be possible to wick a pillar, particularly a palm since that's what I'm working on, so that it does not require the constant turning and the level of babysitting you speak of. We are willing to do this, but I don't think a customer is. I want a candle that will BURN safely and efficiently at all time but especially when burned like what I'm envisioning the average customer will burn it. KWIM?

I do appreciate all your advice and I've found it to be quite helpfu.l

[lrbd]

If the CDN 12s are blowin' out on you, try a 10.

I will try that but tonight I am starting to test one that I made with a 12 but used stearic acid ... so we'll see.

In the mean time here is a photo of my latest flop.CDN 12 no palm stearic acid . I got a slit in the side and it started leaking .just like my first photos. I cut it to try and see what I am missing . Take a peek . keep in mind the photo is blown up . but could those ity bity air pockets cause this? if so how do you prevent them ? they are so small and I wrecked the hell out this baby.

Thanks for all the support

Laura

[Stella1952]

Originally Posted by Stella1952

Wicks with a self-trimming posture burn hotter on one side (the side the wick is curling to) than the other. Twisting the wick helps the wick to burn in a circular pattern and evens this out.

Not trying to sound snipey here but I'm well aware of how a self trimming wick burns and to twist them to help.

I didn't write the comment you quoted solely in response to you - (not to mention that I am completely unaware about what you know and what ya don't; what you've tried and what ya haven't). You were discussing a common issue. I worded my reply for other readers as well who may NOT know about this stuff... Absolutely no disrespect was implied or intended regarding your level of knowledge & expertise.

This bending is one of the things about self trimming wicks I've never liked.

I totally agree. That has been the one thing about self-trimming wicks I have found to be annoying. Every wick has its failing points - there is no perfect wick. That's why I suggested known work-arounds to this trait.

the level of babysitting you speak of

I think you are confusing the actual amount of time/effort expended in performing routine candle maintenance with the number of words it takes me to describe such acts and the energy it takes to read them!!:laugh2:

It takes FAR more energy to write about this than to just do it. Much of what I do to encourage candles to burn *perfectly* is simple, average candle burning maintenance, performed as I fly by a candle as I walk through my house or sit on my sofa. I can't relieve customers of ALL responsibility for proper maintenance and attention if they want the best results from their candles!!

how reasonable this is to expect a customer to babysit a candle to this extent

No more unreasonable than to sell a product which uses an open flame and expect customers to use common sense in its use. If people are going to purchase and use ANY product, THEY have to minimally do certain things to get the best use from that product! Life DOES require SOME active participation, knowledge and thought...:rolleyes2

I think most people aren't going to go to the expense and trouble to get a hurricane to burn their pillars in

Yep, I agree. Some won't even bother to put a non-flammable barrier between their candles and their thousand dollar end tables! My hurricane cost $4.97 + tax at WalMart. I didn't make a special trip to buy it, I assure you! People, however, WILL make special trips to stores and go to the expense of buying TONS of accessories for their computers, homes, X-boxes, cars, cell phones, etc. Who knew that people would go to the expense and take the time to put tempered glass screens in front of their fireplaces? Why should buyin' a simple hurricane be such an unimaginable exception or sticking point of discussion?!!!

Burning 3" pillars in hurricanes is my recommendation to make safety & burning issues as EASY for the average person as I can!! I personally burn and test lots of pillars outside of hurricanes. I don't have a hurricane that fits my 16 point star candle nor the 4, 5, 6 inchers (diameter) I also make/sell. It's a SUGGESTION for best practice, not a "jump-through-hoops" requirement to get my candles to burn reasonably well.

I want a candle that will BURN safely and efficiently at all time but especially when burned like what I'm envisioning the average customer will burn it. KWIM?

I totally agree with you except I try NOT to envision what some folks will do with a perfectly good candle - it scares me!!:laugh2: JK - I actually DO think about that stuff a great deal...

Let's face it - some things DO require more attention IF you want *perfect* results. Our customers who pay reasonable attention when burning our candles obtain the same enjoyment and performance as we do when testing or burning here at the house. The few who light their candles on top of their televisions and then pass out usually do not have the same experience. :undecided If one buys a cake mix and doesn't follow the instructions, it's a foregone conclusion that their cakes are NOT gonna look like those from the person who meticulously follows every word on the label judiciously! There is a happy medium and that's what I shoot for.

My main goal is to engineer a candle that, even when it's burned by a fool, will do the least amount of harm possible; BUT I can't guarantee that if people don't use SOME modicum of common sense and good judgment that they will not be harmed or suffer property damage. Can't make everything perfect for everyone all the time... :undecided:undecided:undecided ... but I still try anyway.

[Stella1952]

I got a slit in the side and it started leaking

While I LOVE layers and have made them almost from the start of my adventures with palm pillars, they present some issues that can contribute to this. If the layers do not bond together, this can be a problem. If the layers have an air pocket between them, this can cause a problem. It's very hard to "wreck" layers the same way we do one-color pillars because we are allowing each layer to cool before pouring the next. My BEST suggestion here would be to pour some one-color candles and get your testing down on them before moving on to more advanced work. Pouring layers is an art - the timing and temperatures have to be just right for everything to happen perfectly. I think it's much easier to pour soy layers than palm, for example. Having said that... let's look at some of your blowouts...

On this candle, pillars 001.jpg (4 of 5), I can see that your pouring temperature varied in the two adjacent layers (the less crystallized layer was a lower temp). I don't know how this looked from INSIDE the candle (was the MP even?), but it's apparent to me that the candle was hotter or thinner in that area... the HEAT was uneven, which blew it out there. If the heat was uneven because there was a void that allowed the MP to become off-center? I dunno - can't tell from the photo. Do you ever notice your wicks flaring up or flickering? That's usually a real good indication that the MP has drained into a void and exposed more wick (higher flame, hotter temp). If this occurs, you should extinguish the candle and trim the wick. Wicks should stay right at 1/4" (and no more!) for best results with palm pillars.

On your newest photo, how much did you cut? I can see what looks like a burned wick, so it doesn't look like you sliced it in half...

When the MP on a palm wax candle solidifies, I frequently see voids made as the wax hardens. The MP on palm wax is pretty shallow and very hard at the bottom of it. Notice WHERE those voids occur - about 1/4"-1/2" from the edge. The edge is where I would be concerned if I saw a void. If those voids are on or right below the surface of the MP, I would not be concerned. That's just palm wax and I don't think what I am seeing (if I am interpreting your cut correctly) contributes to blowouts on the side in any meaningful way. What I DO see in your photo is that the "shell" is off-centered - it's much thicker in the lower left (8 o'clock) than it is in the upper right above the arrow (1 o'clock). THAT will cause a blow-out. HTH

BTW, I have to APPLAUD you for cutting your candle and looking inside!! So MANY times when discussing voids in palm wax candles, I have suggested that people do exactly that: cut one in half, lengthwise, then in half lengthwise again to SEE the voids in the candles. Cut some slices! This, of course, is more difficult to do in a container palm candle, but not impossible! People think I'm NUTZ!!

"I'm NOT gonna cut a perfectly good candle in half 'cause I KNOW there are no holes in there!"

Really. Wish I had X-ray vision like that...:rolleyes2

You are a fearless (and VERY wise) chandler to be willing to sacrifice candles to learn what's going on inside them!!

CUDOS 2 YOU, Laura!!! :yay::yay:

[lrbd]

On your newest photo, how much did you cut? I can see what looks like a burned wick, so it doesn't look like you sliced it in half...

I only cut right below the slit but I am going to cut it in half now that I read your reply. I thought if I cut right below the problem I would see something to help me .

I am burning a solid one now with the stearic acid . You're right about me getting ahead of myself but that's my nature.

my son is an artisit I can't draw or paint to save my life. But I think this is where maybe the artisit in me is trying to come out. I see so many pretty candles on this site and I wanna do it now. So hard to slow myself down

You are a fearless (and VERY wise) chandler to be willing to sacrifice candles to learn what's going on inside them!!

CUDOS 2 YOU, Laura!!!

tanks pal:)