Question about Peaks

[almaga]

Just curious does Peaks make there own FO's or do they buy from another company ? I was searching on here for a while but there are so many suppliers. So If I like Peaks Sugar Cookie for example and wanted to buy it by 8 to 9 pounds how would I go about getting a better deal. I saw that creative fragrances is near me but wasnt sure if they would carry a better one or similiar. In that type of situation is it better to get the FO duped and pay a company to do it or what do you do? Alot of people want to charge 250 to dupe a FO and of course the kicker you need to order atleast 25lbs. Thanks

[Dustpuuppy]

Alaln buys his FOs... at least he used to. I doubt that these makers would sell to you in the 9 - 10 pound range, though. There would probably be minimums and at minimum order levels your price may be as high or higher than you could get it from a candle supply company.

That's just my experience with most things of this nature. I haven't tried it with FOs, though.

OTOH, you might call Peak and see if there's a volume discount you can get from them.

[NewOrleansLady]

You may never get a perfect dupe....unless you luck out and happen to go to the company that actually makes it for Peake's. You'll most likely get a very good representation but not a true exact match. So you'll be paying all that money and not get the exact one you like. For that basically small amount it's not worth not getting the exact one you like.

[almaga]

So I would have to call all these companys and try out samples untill I matched the same FO as Peaks. Companys like Belle Air, Agilex, and so on. I know I could get a deal from creative Fos but what if they dont sell the FO that I like from Peaks. What if your customers only like that FO and they find out you change it up on them. I am assuming Peaks is not gonna tell you who they buy there FOs from so you can buy in bulk. Does anybody know a good supplier that makes FO's like Peaks? Thanks for your replies.

[sockmonkey]

I would just suck it up and buy the 8-9 lbs. Chances are, you could end up paying the same amount at wholesale prices anyway in order to get the same quality. Manufacturers offer lower prices on higher volume, and 25 lbs is the minimum, so you're still paying premium prices at that point.

[almaga]

I was under the impression you pay around 10 dollars a pound though a manufactures at 25lbs min. Would you not be saving almost 6 to 7 dollars per pound? So even some of the people on here who make alot of candles still continue to go through the middle man? Do you know which manufacture make FO's as strong as Peaks or pretty close?

[sockmonkey]

The truth is, what you pay per pound can vary widely. I've bought oils from manufacturers that cost me $11 per pound, and I've bought some that were $22 per pound to get the strength I needed, but there are oils that still cost a lot more--it depends on the ingredients, the strength you need, and the volume you buy. So your impression that oils from manufacturers all cost $10 per pound is wrong.

Does it make sense to have $250 tied up in 25 pounds of one scent--three times the amount you need just to save about $63 off the cost of 9 pounds? The cost of $250 is simply a guess anyway, based on your idea of purchasing oil at $10 per pound--in reality, it could be even higher.

Since Peaks provides you with this forum, I think the least you could do is contact them directly and see if they could offer you a deal on 8 or 9 pounds, or even 25 pounds of the oil, since you were willing to buy it from a manufacturer. Support the people who support us!

[almaga]

I think your right I will give them a call and see what happens. Thanks for the info.

[Candybee]

Many suppliers have a FO price break at 5 lbs. So you may ask about that too.

[Dustpuuppy]

Peak sells their sugar cookie for $16.95 pp. This means they probably pay around $10 pp for it.

Now consider that they aren't buying any 25 pound minimum and getting that price. Alan is probably buying around 1000 pounds per order, to get that pricing. Maybe they're only buying 100 pounds of that scent, but they're also gonna be getting several other scents, at the same time.

Any manufacturer would have to be crazy to give you the same pricing. First they wouldn't be making enough money off the order to be bothered. Second they would be risking pissing off customers who buy thousands of pounds at a time, for one lousy 25 pound order. No candle supply company in the country would ever buy from them again and they would be out of business.

Would you sell candles at a craft show for the same price you would sell to a wholesale customer? If you did, how many wholesale customers do you think you'd have, once they found out ?

[almaga]

I wasnt talking about buying one FO at 25lbs. I was using Sugar Cookie as an example. The reason for asking was becase if you where basing your business on wholesale prices only and you where doing 20-25 FOs of course you wolud want to buy those for a cheaper price even if it meant 20lbs for each FO. I wasnt trying to do this but if you have a future business plan where you want to deal in wholesale business only, you would not want to be paying 16 a pound especially if you are trying to make a good product. I understand hes not gonna give a price break for one FO when he has dozens of other customers as well but you end paying more than the 16 when you add shipping. Why go through all the trouble when you can dupe that FO and pay less unless that person is willing to give you a deal himself. Everybody does test test test to get that FO they have been looking for but your not gonna want to get shipped 2lbs at a time and pay shipping if you are doing alot of business. Im not trying to step on anybodys toes Im just asking questions and I do appreciate all the information you share with me. Thanks

Edited November 8, 2009 by almaga

[Dustpuuppy]

I can relate to the planning for the future thing. Or just idle curiosity, for that matter.:smiley2:

Take into consideration that FOs have a shelf life, too. Most folks say 1 year. I'd hesitate to figure on keeping a large inventory for over 6 months, though.

If the manufacturer's minimum is 25 pounds, you're gonna need to make 800 1 pound candles in 6 months. Or 1600 8oz container candles in 6 months. That's figuring 1/2 oz per pound of wax. That's about 8%.

And that's just one fragrance. If you offer 10 fragrances, you're then talking about making 90 candles per day, 7 days a week, of the 8oz containers.

At this level, if you bought all your FOs at once, you'd be buying 250 pounds, figuring minimum orders of 10 scents. You won't be able to do that every time, as some scents would sell faster than others. But even if you could, you're still not going to get the same price as the candle supply companies do.

Plus you'd have to have a climate controlled area large enough to store the ten drums in. About 20 square feet. That's about the size of a car, give or take. If you're working out of your 2 car garage, that isn't gonna leave much room for the 10 wax melters you're gonna need to make all these candles, much less the 8,000 pounds of wax that you'd be going through.

Also, the wax and FO would need to be delivered by tractor trailor. They can't go into a residential area. In short, you're going to have to rent a commercial space to work in or get a truck to bring it in from the freight terminal. You'll need an 18 foot box van with a lift gate, probably cost you about $150 to rent one for a day. You'll also need a pallet jack. Those cost about $400 for the cheap ones.

If you rent a commercial space, figure about $1000 per month. Don't forget power, water and sewage costs, too. So you'd better be selling every one of those 16,000 candles.

I used to run a print shop where we used about 80 cases per week of Geogia Pacific copy paper. I called Georgia Pacific to try to buy direct. I was told that I would have to buy a railroad car load to even place an order. And even at that level, I was only gonna save about 10 cents per case. After figuring what it would cost to store it, I'd have gone waaaaayyy in the hole.

I was sitting there thinking I was all big time and shit... til I got off that phone call.

[almaga]

I can relate to the planning for the future thing. Or just idle curiosity, for that matter.:smiley2:

Take into consideration that FOs have a shelf life, too. Most folks say 1 year. I'd hesitate to figure on keeping a large inventory for over 6 months, though.

If the manufacturer's minimum is 25 pounds, you're gonna need to make 800 1 pound candles in 6 months. Or 1600 8oz container candles in 6 months. That's figuring 1/2 oz per pound of wax. That's about 8%.

And that's just one fragrance. If you offer 10 fragrances, you're then talking about making 90 candles per day, 7 days a week, of the 8oz containers.

At this level, if you bought all your FOs at once, you'd be buying 250 pounds, figuring minimum orders of 10 scents. You won't be able to do that every time, as some scents would sell faster than others. But even if you could, you're still not going to get the same price as the candle supply companies do.

Plus you'd have to have a climate controlled area large enough to store the ten drums in. About 20 square feet. That's about the size of a car, give or take. If you're working out of your 2 car garage, that isn't gonna leave much room for the 10 wax melters you're gonna need to make all these candles, much less the 8,000 pounds of wax that you'd be going through.

Also, the wax and FO would need to be delivered by tractor trailor. They can't go into a residential area. In short, you're going to have to rent a commercial space to work in or get a truck to bring it in from the freight terminal. You'll need an 18 foot box van with a lift gate, probably cost you about $150 to rent one for a day. You'll also need a pallet jack. Those cost about $400 for the cheap ones.

If you rent a commercial space, figure about $1000 per month. Don't forget power, water and sewage costs, too. So you'd better be selling every one of those 16,000 candles.

I used to run a print shop where we used about 80 cases per week of Geogia Pacific copy paper. I called Georgia Pacific to try to buy direct. I was told that I would have to buy a railroad car load to even place an order. And even at that level, I was only gonna save about 10 cents per case. After figuring what it would cost to store it, I'd have gone waaaaayyy in the hole.

I was sitting there thinking I was all big time and shit... til I got off that phone call.

LMAO I love this place and I do appreciate the honesty. I ran another business before and bought flavors over the border and had a company dup them for me here because they where so strong and I enjoyed saving money. All I was really looking for was a recomendation of a company that was almost equal to the good quality Peaks provides. Chances of me ever getting that big are probably small but I always look ahead in everything I do. I love brutal honesty and I appreciate all the information you gave me but like I said just doing research. If you have any recommendations I would appreciate it. Thanks for you insight and your response. I will also contact some of these company I am buying from now and see what type of discounts they offer. I figured dup was the best way but they say they wont be an exact match.

Edited November 8, 2009 by almaga

[Dustpuuppy]

I love brutal honesty and I appreciate all the information you gave me but like I said just doing research. If you have any recommendations I would appreciate it. Thanks for you insight and your response. I will also contact some of these company I am buying from now and see what type of discounts they offer. I figured dup was the best way but they say they wont be an exact match.

Not so sure about honesty, insight or whatever. Mostly it was all just flippant bullshit.

Although the math was pretty accurate, I think. And the thing about the paper was true, as well.

Don't want to dash any hopes or such. I've just been down this road with suppliers several times.

Manufacturers protect their distributors. They make certain that nobody can do what you are trying to find a way to do. They have to, in order to stay in business.

There's always a chance that you'll get lucky and find what you want. That would probably be with a small company. But then it's hard to know if they'll still be around, the next time you order. I noticed that one small company I used a couple of times now seems to have been bought by one of the candle supply companies.

And you still have to consider the shelf life of the FO. I used 6 months because you never know what's going to happen. I think most around here use 1 year as a rule of thumb, but when you're talking about several hundred dollars worth...

OTOH, just because a dup isn't exact, doesn't mean it won't be just as good, if you go down that road. They'll generally send you a sample to test before making the whole batch.

[sudsnwicks]

For 8-9 lbs I would just get it from Peak. They do give a price break when you buy 2 lbs or more. If you try to get a further discount from them it would be like a customer buying 10 candles and wanting a wholesale price.