subsitiute??????????

[brempel]

So I am making salt bars. i have run into a problem. I am doubling the oils to cool them and will make 2 batches tomm. Now I am 4 oz short on the shea. I am already melting this. Now what?

br

[Carrie]

Have you already made up your lye water?

If not, add 4oz of another oil/butter and run it through the lye calc. If you have, well, that's a little harder. You have to re-figure your lye and add or subtract from your solution. Or use your lye water as a pipe cleaner, down the toilet, and then start over.

[brempel]

Thanks for the info. I added some castor and olive and the lye/water is almost the same. Is it bad if its about an ounce off?

Bev

[Carrie]

Yes! .

[schmeebly]

definitely!!

[brempel]

So this is the new recipe. I know it is large. Can someone look and see if I am doing this right? I would then add 134. ounces of salt right? I am planning to split this recipe in 2. I am doing the 0% discount.

Discount Factor NaOH Amount 0% 22.07 g 5% 20.97 g 10% 19.86 g 15% 18.76 g

Ingredient Amount Castor Oil 3.00 g Olive Oil 3.00 g Coconut Oil 89.60 g Shea Butter 32.40 g

Weight of Water Required 51.50 g

[topofmurrayhill]

Sorry I didn't see this in time. I think you make candles also and soy wax would have been a good sub for shea. It contains more palmitic, which makes the sap value a little higher (around 190-192), but you could put in just enough to match up with the lye amount.

[brempel]

I think I have fixes up my recipe. I went thru the lye calculator and added the few ounces of h2o and lye i need for this recipe. Now it should work. Can this lye solution sit for 2 days? I am running out of time for today.

Bev

[Carriegsxr6]

Sorry I didn't see this in time. I think you make candles also and soy wax would have been a good sub for shea. It contains more palmitic, which makes the sap value a little higher (around 190-192), but you could put in just enough to match up with the lye amount.

I have to disagree on your recomended subsititution.

I feel strongly that the shea is added to this recipe for either its creamyness values it provides from the high Steric Acid or that its moisturizing it provides from its high Oleic values, and not the hardness part. Most likley for the oleic value since you really dont need more hardness or creamyness in a salt bar, you would need to up the moisturizing qualities.

If you suggest something high in palmatic acid, then you are just getting more hardening, without the creaminess or moisturizing. Which the coconut oil is plenty hard on its own.

I would suggest substituting an oil that has the same moisturizing charactoristics as SHEA, no matter if the lye amount will be the same or not. In the end, the recipe characteristics is what makes a good bar and not the lye amount.

[Carriegsxr6]

replace the shea with another oil that is high in Oleic Acid, Olive Oil would work, if thats the only other oils you have on hand.

Soywax isnt the same as Soybean 27.5% Hydrog., its far more hydrogenated than that. And therefore it wont have the same properties in soap.

[topofmurrayhill]

I feel strongly that the shea is added to this recipe for either its creamyness values it provides from the high Steric Acid or that its moisturizing it provides from its high Oleic values, and not the hardness part.

If you suggest something high in palmatic acid, then you are just getting more hardening, without the creaminess or moisturizing. Which the coconut oil is plenty hard on its own.

Soy wax is particularly high in stearic and oleic acids. The fatty acid profile is similar to butters, so it makes a good substitute at a lower cost.

Both stearic and palmitic acids add hardness to a bar. That's not contrary to a good skin feel. You need a balance of oils and they work synergistically. I don't think any particular one is more conditioning than another. Hard and soft oils both contribute their thing.

[Carriegsxr6]

Soy wax is not as high as you may think in stearic and oleic acids. Start with the levels of stearic and oleic acids in just plain liquid soybean oil. Notice how they completly change once it starts being hydrogenated, to the consitancy of butter (say 27% hydrogenated). Now hydrogenate even more, to where you now have soywax, and the levels of stearic and oleic acids are even more off.

Stearic Acid gives two different characteristics in soap. The best characteristic is creaminess it gives, second is the hardness it adds but not as hard as Palmatic Acid, beacuse this is just a straight hardener.

Lard would be the best subsitute for shea butter in this recipe in order to get closer to both stearic and oleic levels of shea butter for the effects of creamyness, hardness and conditioning.

I belive balancing the oils is very true as well, but you have to keep in mind each recipe you are making.

With this recipe since its a salt bar and you are adding a lot of coconut, you really dont need the hardening effects of stearic from shea and you dont need more palmatic hardening either. You just use the shea for it for its creaminess the stearic adds and the conditioning factors the oleic adds.

Therefore you could easily just use a liquid oil replacement to get the most conditioning factors, and let the salt and coconut do their job for hardening and creaminess. i suggested uping olive since she already had some, but could really just use liquid soybean oil.

But again, if you want the closest substitute that will give you close to both stearic and oleic acids levels of shea for hardness, conditioning and creaminess, then go with lard.....

[topofmurrayhill]

Apart from some palmitic, soybean oil contains mostly 18-carbon fatty acids. Hydrogenation results in polyunsaturated fatty acids becoming monounsaturated and monounsaturated fatty acids becoming fully saturated. In other words, linoleic becomes oleic becomes stearic.

Depending on its melt point and how it was produced, soy waxes contain roughly 40-60% oleic acid and 25-50% stearic acid. If you're short some shea butter in a pinch and you happen to be a soy candlemaker like the original poster, it's a good way to go. Even if you have lard around and don't need to stay veg, soywax is closer to the mark.

[Carriegsxr6]

Apart from some palmitic, soybean oil contains mostly 18-carbon fatty acids. Hydrogenation results in polyunsaturated fatty acids becoming monounsaturated and monounsaturated fatty acids becoming fully saturated. In other words, linoleic becomes oleic becomes stearic.

Depending on its melt point and how it was produced, soy waxes contain roughly 40-60% oleic acid and 25-50% stearic acid. If you're short some shea butter in a pinch and you happen to be a soy candlemaker like the original poster, it's a good way to go. Even if you have lard around and don't need to stay veg, soywax is closer to the mark.

I dont know Top, but that seems like way to high of a range to be depended on. And depending on the method used, the steric levels may end up being too high, in turn not having much oleic left at all.

I found a site that gives this info on the ranges when using one specific method:

"When the palm and soy waxes were analyzed for their fatty acid content using known methods of Gas Liquid Chromatography (“GLC”), the soybean wax was found to comprise between 82-94% stearic acid (C 18:0 ) and between 3-14% palmitic acid (C 16:0 ). By comparison, the palm oil wax comprises approximately 55% stearic acid (C 18:0 ), 39.5% palmitic acid (C 16:0 ), 1.1% myristic acid (C 14:0 ) and approximately 1.0% oleic acid (C 18: )."

Now according to the oil properties chart on soap calc, Pure Steric Acid has 0% oleic. So it seems to me that the higher the steric, the lower the oleic. Which in turns takes away from the conditioning properties. So its best to stay closer to the middle ranges like the lard has or 27% hydrogenated soybean oil. But if we just stay with pure soybean oil (just speaking at this recipe inperticular) we can get higher conditioning levels without the guess work from the natural linoleic level.

[topofmurrayhill]

The sort of soy shortening commonly used for container candles has oleic and stearic amounts somewhere in the middle, similar to butters. I was generalizing across different types of wax you can find on the market, but the fatty acid profile for a specific product won't vary that much. I assume it varies kind of like any other oil does.

Iodine value and melting point are clues to what you're dealing with. Candle wax would be have an IV around 50 and MP around 125-130. The soy example you found is mostly hydrogenated. I'd guestimate it would have an IV of 25 or less and MP of 140 or more.

Candlemaking suppliers don't sell stuff like that. I don't have any info on what CF carries, but it would be interesting to have a source for hydrogenated soy of that kind. For one thing it would be a better alternative for those people who add free stearic acid to their recipes. Adding it in the form of an oil instead of a free fatty acid would slow down trace.