My 6 oz tin caught fire

[number2of7]

I've always made candles in the 8oz size so I wanted to try the 6oz. I've been testing it the last couple of days. Tonight, it was down to the last inch or so. I was at the computer when my son came in from playing. He quickly informed me that my candle was on fire. I quickly got up and you should have seen the rolling flames....baking soda to the rescue! The tin is black as soot (inside and out).

Since this has never happened before, I'd like to narrow down the culprit. I'm naturally inclined to assume that the wick was too large, but I'm curious if any other factors played a role in this.

Here are the specifics:

6 oz tin

KY Perfect Blend

6% FO (Macintosh Apple)

44-28-18Z

Marathon Burn (always burned 4+ hours at a time)

Did not trim the wick (pretty large mushrooms)

Lots of carbon deposit in the bottom from not trimming

Remember that this was a tester so I purposefully did the marathon burn and didn't trim the wicks. Had to clarify, because there's always that person.....

So, do you think that the fire happened simply because the wick was too large and caused the tin to get too hot, or do any of those other factors perhaps play a part in the fire?

I know there was another post on here at one time about tins catching fire, but I searched for it and couldn't find it.

Naturally, I'll be going down a wick size for starters.....or maybe just "canning" the whole idea of the 6oz.....pardon the pun.

Would love to hear your thoughts or past experiences with this.

[Vicky_CO]

Lots of carbon deposit in the bottom from not trimming

This is why your candle caught on fire. All those deposits become highly flammable after soaking in wax.

There is a reason why warning labels say never burn that last 1/2 an inch of wax and not to let wick trimming and other thing fall in the melt pool.

[candlelady]

Who was it on this board that was saying their customer had a fire? Actually several people have said there were fires. But, it just seems that the tins are NOT the way to go for candles. Too much of a liability it seems to me. Not enough depth and being metal, I don't know.....

Stick with jars! I've burned my jars to the bottom as have my customers with no fires, but one customer who did, left it sitting on a wooden shelf and it scorched it. No fires!

As far as I am concerned, tins are for favors, mints, jelly beans, etc... Not for candles. I won't buy one and I will NEVER sell one, small or large!

Just my 2 cents.

Carrie

[candlelady]

This is why your candle caught on fire. All those deposits become highly flammable after soaking in wax.

There is a reason why warning labels say never burn that last 1/2 an inch of wax and not to let wick trimming and other thing fall in the melt pool.

So True Vicky!

So your tin is what 3" tall, so you burn 2" or so and your done? I can burn a candle in my 8 oz. sq mason jar all the way down (yea, I know...the 1/2" scenario), but it will burn, no fire, and be just fine. The whole tin candle thing is IMO a waste of money in my opinion from a liability stand point. And how much do you sell for a candle in a tin? $4? for what.... a lawsuit???? Of course, I don't buy tins,except for my lotion bars, so I'm not an expert on candle sales in tins, except for hearing about FIRES!

Jars, jars, jars!

Carrie

IMO only ~ don't beat me up please.

[Vicky_CO]

The same thing will happen in a jar if the melt pool is full of junk. I have seen it. You need to keep you melt pools clean and stress that to your customers to do the same just like trimming wick need to be stressed over and over.

[bugtussle]

I'm the "burning tin" chandler, oh, that's a terrible statement!! I agree that debris can be a factor, but the biggest factor is too big a wick. When that overwicked tin gets down to the last 1 inch, the wax can get too hot and it will catch fire. It will do the same thing in glass. I have poured over 40,000 tins and I think they are GREAT candles. They are great for Fundraisers and give customers a chance to try different scents without a big investment. But people that abuse candles will sooner ot later, get a fire.

[stacien]

2 of 7 you marathon burned and neglected to trim your wick two huge safety factors that are printed on the warning labels. You basically did what is prevalent of most consumers. Now you know and what to change. It's not the size of the tin. That is actually an easy size to work with pretty safely.

[candlelady]

Never mind.

Carrie

Again, no disrespect meant.

[Stella1952]

The legendary tin fire thread...

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58960

There is no magic about jars vs tins as far as the contents igniting - all you need are the correct parameters of temperature and fuel and oxygen and POOF! The containers don't catch fire - the contents do! The glass or metal has ZIPPO to do with this. I actually worry MORE about my glass containers because, not only will their contents catch on fire, the container has the potential to shatter. YIKES!! Hot sooted glass shards!!

But THIS is WHY we test!! Getting distracted by thinking it's the composition of one container over the other is counterproductive and doesn't make sense. This can happen to ANYONE, all things being equal, and we'd all be well advised to do a few extra tests to ensure that it's REAL HARD even for an IDIOT to catch one of our products on fire.

I make 6 oz. tins and am in the process of retesting them for "correct wicking for complete idiots." The one thing we didn't include in our previous attempts to set one on fire was the accumulation of carbon deposits. HOWEVER, I have a candle that was returned to my partner for refilling. We don't do refilling, but she comandeered the spent container because she had never SEEN so much carbon crap in one of our candles and wanted to share the disgusting sight with me!! Whoever burned that candle should be euthanized.

BUT since I DO still have it, I think I'll just pour the nasty stuff into the bottom of an innocent tin and see how much more it'll take to make a fire happen...

[topofmurrayhill]

It's easy to make a pronouncement but you can't just make an assumption about the cause. A colleague of mine started having a problem with containers sporadically catching fire and we went through every reasonable theory including everything that's been suggested in this thread and more. Turned out to be a poorly manufactured wax blend that was causing it. Each case is individual.

[sharyl55]

Amber, your story just proves how important testing is. I was glad to read that you tested to duplicate worse case scenarios. Unfortunately there are customers out there that will *never* trim a wick. Now you know what happens when the 44-28-18 z wick isn't trimmed. Good luck finding a wick that works.

Maybe instead of putting our logos on the label we should just put

"Trim the Wick Stupid!"

[Ring of Fire]

Top, I can assume you had this faulty wax tested in the proper facility to come to this only possible conclusion?

[topofmurrayhill]

Top, I can assume you had this faulty wax tested in the proper facility to come to this only possible conclusion?

In real life it happened very sporadically, but my colleague was able to figure out how to reproduce the problem pretty reliably on the test bench. Being able to see it happen, know the exact circumstances, measure the wax temperature, etc. was very helpful as you can understand. In fact it made it possible to rule out all the possibilities you'd normally consider. There was half a jar of wax left, no debris, no overheating, no nothing.

Add to that the problem only occured in connection with one shipment of wax. It never happened with previous batches, either out in the world or in hundreds of test candles. It also hasn't happened - thousands of candles later - since changing wax manufacturers.

My point is, there are multiple possibilities and a guess should be phrased as a guess. Nobody knows what happened with the tin.

[logcabinmomma]

Another thing I haven't heard mentioned is how you secured your wick and what size wicktab you used. If you secure it with a sealant that is heat resistant (RTF sealant or another high temp silicone), it will keep the wax from funnelling up the bottom of the wick at the end of the burn and will always extinguish ITSELF with plenty left in the bottom of the container. Lots of glass containers have concave bottoms and will put themselves out sooner, but tins are flat and will burn to the last drop. IF those drops are contaminated with wick "droppings", they will burn in the bottom of the tin.

Wick stickers and high temp glue guns don't seal the bottom of the wick enough to always put out the flame before the wax is completely gone. Don't forget to test this too!

-Kristi

[HeavenScentU]

I don't understand why you would want to marathon burn unless you were waiting for something to happen to the candle. I am assuming you have a caution label on the container that states Do not leave unattended and you left the room. If you followed all the caution label instructions and trimmed the wick every 4 hours and let it cool and relit then I can see why you would be puzzled as to what happened. I just don't get it. Yes alot of customers aren't going to read and follow the instructions but if they don't how can we be held responsible for them being neglectful. Your candle is probably safe to burn if it was properly taken care of.

[Stella1952]

it will keep the wax from funnelling up the bottom of the wick at the end of the burn and will always extinguish ITSELF with plenty left in the bottom of the container.

IF the seal holds and IF there is no puncture from the crimping in the neck of the wicktab. Those are the only circumstances where I have had a wicktab failure with the high-temp silicon.

I don't understand why you would want to marathon burn unless you were waiting for something to happen to the candle. I am assuming you have a caution label on the container that states Do not leave unattended and you left the room. If you followed all the caution label instructions and trimmed the wick every 4 hours and let it cool and relit then I can see why you would be puzzled as to what happened. I just don't get it. Yes alot of customers aren't going to read and follow the instructions but if they don't how can we be held responsible for them being neglectful.

HeavenScentU, people are sued frequently in spite of warnings. Product safety testing DOES mean that you test your products in the manner that a careless customer might use them. Now I don't think that extends to trying to catch the drapes or the cat on fire, but it IS wise to know HOW your candle will perform if abused in this common manner. One might decide to change one's wicking as a result of testing.

Please don't ever think that little sticker will prevent a lawsuit! Manufacturing and testing data are primary defenses against a lawsuit. Without that data to offer as proof that one's products have been manufactured with reliable ingredients and tested thoroughly for safety, a trial attorney would tear one apart. If uninsured or underinsured, that's plenty enough to ruin one financially.

Number2of7 was performing what is called "due diligence" in product testing and I hope she and all other chandlers do so both for their protection and most especially, their customer's.

Maybe instead of putting our logos on the label we should just put

"Trim the Wick Stupid!"

I think I can make room on the label for that!

[HeavenScentU]

If that's the case then I need to go and buy some Yankee candles and light them all and leave on vacation. Then after my house is burned I can call my lawyer so I can file a claim and be rich. No it doesn't happen like that, there has to be proven negligence for faulty candles.

[SliverOfWax]

If that's the case then I need to go and buy some Yankee candles and light them all and leave on vacation. Then after my house is burned I can call my lawyer so I can file a claim and be rich. No it doesn't happen like that, there has to be proven negligence for faulty candles.

That depends on the judge and the jury. You saw what happened with OJ! lol

[MissMary]

Stella hit it on the head.

Here's the difference in the scenario you presented HSU... Yankee has lawyers on retainers for BIG money. They can afford to defend themselves. Insurance doesn't magically provide a high powered, well-educated and respected lawyer, and generally pays out when you ARE at fault, not the process in between.

Not to mention there have been some insanely stupid lawsuits that have been WON, even with those little pieces of paper.

You've got it backwards in today's judicial system. It's not "there has to be proven negligence", it's "there has to be proven protection".

If that home is destroyed, can you say there was a warning label on it in the first place? Can you prove that when they bought this candle, the label hadn't fallen off? Especially with wholesale accounts? Are you going to have the money to have the candle tested for burned down components of the label?

BTW, the scenario you mentioned HAS happened before and went to court. Many people have left candles burning, left their house, and claimed stupidity in court because the candle didn't specifically state that "don't leave this candle burning when you leave your house" and unattended was too big of a word or didn't apply to them because there were pets there, etc. There's a reason why the labels get longer and longer. There's a reason why peanuts say "may contain nuts", etc.

Another thing to mention, if a homeowner loses their house, it may not even be the homeowner suing you. Many insurance companies will pay out to the homeowner, THEN come after you, that's a lot of money to go against.

[logcabinmomma]

IF the seal holds and IF there is no puncture from the crimping in the neck of the wicktab. Those are the only circumstances where I have had a wicktab failure with the high-temp silicon.

That's why I slather on the silicone! Really get enough on there to seal all the way around and squish up in there! So far so good!

-Kristi

[Stella1952]

Yeah, it was my fault. :embarasse I didn't have the *perfect* amount and application technique (for distributing it evenly) down yet and, sure enough, the thin side leaked.:rolleyes2 I learned, though, and have had no other problems except when the wicktab is pierced. And even then, it usually only occurs when the candle is being powerburned and the last half inch is liquid. At least the wick doesn't wander and end up on the side! That happened recently with one of my own personal candles that I made "on the fly" and used a wick sticker. Really hadda SCRUB to get that resinous residue off the side of the jar. :undecided

[number2of7]

Thanks for all the responses.....and as I said in my original post, "there's always that person"....HSU gets the award this time.

And I can't recall now who asked, but the answer to your wick sealant question.....I use the wick stickums.

[Eden Sass]

what are the opinions on 'wickless candles' for these tins to sit on an electric candle warmer? Is that opening a new can of worms by selling these, having people burn regular candles on them, the wicks come loose, candle catches fire, etc. etc. ?? Or do you think these would be safer? I saw an advertisement saying these wickless tins would be great for dorms etc. where you are not allow to burn candles...

[Stella1952]

I think tins are ideal for this application. They don't break.

This is a good thread about warmers and wickless stuff...

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62541&highlight=wickless

If you search for wickless, there are loads of discussions about them - pros, cons and everything in-between...

[Ring of Fire]

My MIL had an Avon candle explode in the bathroom and was told by Avon it was not properly attended. End of story. There was nothing she could legally do to retrieve damages from this as told to by her lawyer. Loop holes everywhere. She would have had to prove she was sitting there watching the candle the whole time and it just exploded. But since she left it "unattended" too bad. I don't know too many people who light a candle and sit and watch it burn and don't move from that position. No one was injured and there was no fire, but still, the dollars they had to pay was out of their pocket to fix the room.

I guess it would be much easier to sue in the case of a homemade candle no matter what is written on the label. I just wonder how many of these instances actually get to the inside of a courtroom. Seems the most fires people talk about on here are ones they themselves are trying to make happen to try to cover every stupid thing a customer may do. That may take eons.