macaroni&cheese Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Anyone using CBA noticed within the last few weeks of having to wick up, and frosting harder to control? My tins are lighting fine the first time, then I re-light them a second time and they fizzle out. Now the 8-ounce jars are beginning to do the same thing, and I am getting worried. Until I figure it out, I am using a wick size bigger. But I am just wondering if anyone has an inside scoop on Naturewax, and if they went back to their old formula, or if they added or subtracted something that would make this problem occur. When I send them an email, I get sent the 'diagnostic procedure' in isolating these kinds of issues, but no other answer. I've done the isolating deal-wick and wax only, and they just fizzle out on the second burn! Also, if I just light and let them burn without blowing them out, they will eventually fizzle out, or burn down to this tiny little flame! Grrrr....I use a zinc-cored wick, and have had no trouble with them in the past, except for the bit-o-shroom deal, which is inconsequential.Any help is appreciated!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 But I am just wondering if anyone has an inside scoop on Naturewax, and if they went back to their old formula, or if they added or subtracted something that would make this problem occur.Are you talking about an ecosoya product or a NatureWax product? Nature's Gifts makes Ecosoya, NatureWax, a division of Cargill, makes C1-3, P1, V1...Wicking and frosting problems during the winter are common because of the cooler temperatures and room temps under which we are makng and burning candles...A candle burning in a 75°F room will not burn the same as one burning in a 65° room... Because the candles cool faster, they can show more frosting issues than when they are burned and cooled at higher room temps. I'm sure humidity (or the lack thereof) have a role to play also.While I do have seasonal difficulties same as anyone else making soy wax-based candles, I find that CDNs do not let me down. While I might notice a little more hangup on jars during the winter, the candles burn quite well for me, whether in tins or on glass containers. HTH Also, if I just light and let them burn without blowing them out, they will eventually fizzle out, or burn down to this tiny little flame!If you are talking about powerburning, this is typical of an underwicked candle and also what happens to the wick when the sustainer base works properly - it fizzles out because it can no longer draw liquid wax through it. That's the idea... If you wick your candles for their perfomance in the last third of the container, I think you will have better success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni&cheese Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 Yeah, I meant Nature's Gifts. Sorry for the confusion. While I did mean power burn, the candle never even makes it through the first third. It does behave as if it is underwicked, and that's why I was wondering if there was a wax composition change. There are signs that the wax is clogging up in the wick, or at least that's what I think I see. And I have never seen that before. The wick becomes extremely brittle, and any attempt to trim will break it. I pour in a 75F environment, climate controlled. But like you said, pouring cold is always different than in the spring or summer. I have thought about making a cover for my tables, with a small exhaust fan, like one for a computer, to slow down the cooling process, but I don't know just how practical that really is.Thanks for the info on the wick. I will try them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 To slow down the cooling, place the candles in a >200°F prewarmed (and turned off) oven or invert a thick, oversized cardboard box over the candles or place them in a styrofoam cooler. It's best to set them on a rack (like a cookie cooling rack) so that the air can circulate all around the candle and not on a countertop or towel, etc. A countertop can rob heat from the bottom and a towel can hold it in too much. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Stella, I'm sometimes puzzled by the threads you choose to respond in. This question is quite specific to a product that you've never poured, as far as I know.Mac'n'Cheese, can you clarify whether this is a new batch of wax that you purchased or if you just started having difficulties with wax that was working OK before. Also, if it's a new purchase, did you buy it by the case so that you can check the box and make sure it's the right wax?The problem you're having with the wicks deteriorating to crispy crunchiness isn't all that unusual, but I believe it would be unusual for CBA. When you say you're getting that and the frosting has become difficult to control, something just seems fishy. It doesn't sound like that wax it's supposed to be.The only times I've encountered that burn difficulty it's been with straight 125 MP soy shortenings like GB 415 and CB-Pure Soy. Some of those just don't seem to burn very well and I don't understand exactly why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni&cheese Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 Mr top:It is a new batch of wax that I had just purchased, and my first notice was that the oily clinginess was missing. at the suggested melt point it was cloudy, and if you temper the wax it increases the burn difficulty. Something else also separates out of it as well, and if I don't stir my vat frequently, I have tops frosting, the middle of the container is brainy, the center of the wax cracks, and not in the ususal circular crack that I'm not so worried about. It's the cracks that extend the diameter of the candle. You're right, it's like there's a completely different wax in the box!! I think they feel like they are losing the hot throw wars with GB maybe, and they are doing something to increase the wax's scent loadability and throw. I never buy by the bag, only by the box. Lots of boxes, minimum of 5 at a time. I have 2 suppliers I get them from, one local, and the other is CS. CS is my primary, and theirs is the trouble. My local supplier had 5 cases, and I bought 2 from her, and these were okay. Difference here is that she bought these during the summer. I know this because I forgot she started ordering it for me, and the date on the box. Also for you CBA fans, you know what summer temps do to it when it is shipped, how it packs. I have read on the archives here how there used to be an older formula of CBA...do you think possibly they have gone back to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden Sass Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I'm getting a little bit nervous... I'm going tomorrow to Canwax (Canadian Distributor) to buy the Ecosoya CBA... I'm switching from parrafin to soy and hope it works out okay!!! I did purchase some soy from ebay (of all places) and was sooo impressed with the candles it produced (is Ecosoya PB a more tan colour and CBA white? I hope that's what I received... I got both a tart kit and a container candle kit). After reading all these posts, I'm a little overwhelmed by all the testing that is going to consume me over the next while to make my 'perfect candles'!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Stella, I'm sometimes puzzled by the threads you choose to respond in. This question is quite specific to a product that you've never poured, as far as I know.Some problems with different soy wax based brands DO respond to similar techniques, Top. The suggestions I made might improve the situation. Or not.Some of those just don't seem to burn very well and I don't understand exactly why.Since with all your veggie wax experience, even you get stumped sometimes, just like the rest of us mortals, I can only pray it was okay with you if I ventured a little suggestion... I hope that lives weren't ruined... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsjustme Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Macaroni & Cheese....on the Advanced you ordered from CS recently, I got mine around Jan.9th, Lot# 7324189016 12:08 and 12:06. I'm having troubles too, did you get this same lot#? Don't expect any answers from Dr.Al or CS....this is my 3rd bad batch in that many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I'm sorry but a mixup at the supplier's was my only idea, because I wouldn't have thought CBA could behave the way you describe under any type of torture. Whatever is different about this batch apparently goes back to the manufacturer. If by CS you mean CandleScience, they may be able to help investigate what's wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni&cheese Posted January 23, 2008 Author Share Posted January 23, 2008 I didn't think to record the lot numbers...that would help lots of folks, I guess, to be on the lookout. I think I may still be able to find an empty box or two, I'll have to see. I've got 250# more coming to my doorstep Wednesday, so it WOULD be wise to compare lot numbers then. The only thing I have been able to do so far is increase ambient temp to 78F when pouring, switch to LX on my tins, wick up 3 sizes on my 8-oz and 2 sizes on my 10-ounce. I am going to clean out my vat tonite and wait for the new shipment.This is so, so, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbutterflyw Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Hi,Okay, I know this conversation ended, but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents, because I was actually searching to see if others were having problems with CBA. I have only ever used CBA and although I haven't really had wicking problems, the last 2 batches of wax I got have had unbelievable frosting! I was shocked, I loved this wax because it didn't frost! Anyway, I didn't get my wax from CS, I got it from 2 different places, Wholesale Supplies Plus and Creative Illuminations. I am going to work on putting the wax in a less drafty place and maybe try the oven-theory (thanks for that idea!) but I just wonder if Ecosoya has changed their recipe or something. I am definitely somewhat of a newbie, but it sure is odd that others are having the same problems. :undecidedBarb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 it sure is odd that others are having the same problems. :undecidedActually it isn't - it's wintertime. Climate makes a difference in how soy candles react. Are you using a new FO you have not used in the past? Certain FOs can cause heavy frosting in soy-based waxes...Have you read through the Nature's Gifts (ecosoya manufacturer) website for suggestions?http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?p=620540#post620540http://www.ngiwax.com/soy-wax-and-polymorphism-whatGood luck! HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni&cheese Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Not only is it frosting, bbutterflyw, but the burnability has reduced. Certain FO's and dyes are now being rejected by the wax, especially blue tints, and I use soy-friendly dyes: liquid, powder. I have nboticed however, that heating CBA to 185F helps a lot of the cracking I was experiencing earlier on, and I have made no changes to ambient pour temps. But I still have frosting.Wicks--I LOVE zinc-cored wicks, because they burn slower, and that is one of our selling points, and they are sooo easy to work with. But it is looking like I may need to go with a cotton-cored or something else. As for now, I am going to test a 51-32, and a 51-36 for the 8 ounce, and it looks like the ever-thirsty (!) 60-44 has won on the 11 ounce. That may beat the 'crispy wick' problem, as that stuff chokes up the wick. The point is to just improve capillary action, without increasing ROC too terribly. I want to go to the LX's, but I think they are kind of fussy.---- ON ANOTHER NOTE ----You know what, I joined up to this site because I believed it to be professional, and to the point. I have learned soooooo very much from this board, and I have become an added success because of it. I don't like all this drama. I know I am nobody, and maybe you guys are just kidding around. So c'mon man, if you're joking it up, put a smilie or something at the end will ya? That way the rest of us will know, k?And if you're not, then well, please forgive me, but grow up. Don't we all have better things to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbutterflyw Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Thanks for your input, Stella and Mac. I have been experimenting with new fo's and blue dyes for the first time. Mac, you're right, I've never seen so many problems with the blue dyes! I was also having problems with the wax choking out the wick but I thought that it was a wick problem. I was using Eco wicks but don't care for them so I switched to LX which worked pretty well for me. I tried out zinc but the top of my wax caught on fire! I'm not sure what happened but I haven't tried zincs since. On the one that caught fire, the wick was trimmed but I was trying it in a 4oz. Victorian, so I didn't know if it needed more space, like a larger jar, or what. Anyway, I agree with Mac, I've really learned so much here and it just frustrates me to hear of people attacking one another. I may just be naive, but I appreciate any and all advice here! :smiley2:Thanks,Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni&cheese Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Bbutterflyw:Unrelated to this thread, but as with those who face the frustrations FO loading in CBA, you have to be real careful to not exceed 8 - 8.5% load. in doing so, and especially in your aforementioned container, the FO can literally ignite!! You might try shopping around for the identical fragrance from another supplier, that has made all the difference for me on several FO's.For my introductions to the world of CBA, I really struggled with this issue. It would seem that my customers like the balance of a softer fragrance with a wax that doesn't look like it was poured, cooled, rolled on the floor, and crammed into a container by a hydraulic press. So, I'm happy. When I DO run across a FO that is nice and super strong, I am all the more happy. More than anything else, this is where you spend your R&D dollars, in multiple variations of fragrances! Yes, CT is superfantastic, but don't let that fool you. Oh, and I am also seeing that I need to keep your MP shallow, < 1/4 inch.HTH!!!Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbutterflyw Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Mac,Thanks for the warning about FO's, I didn't realize they were flammable. I've been doing 10% in my candles, because I felt like if I did less, it wasn't as fragrant. Of course, finding out about this makes me think that less fragrance but not catching on fire...well, yeah, I'll try again with 8-9%. Thanks Again,Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunFlames Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Jeff, I am a bit confused. Can you explain a bit more about your 8-8.5% CBA thought. The NGI site says 6 - 10%.I have not had any issues yet and I have some that I use 1.25oz pp.TIADanielle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmeroo Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Mac & Cheese,Hiya! I use CBA for myself right now,have been testing it.I use CD wicks and love them...IMO they burn rather slow..slower than the CSN"S and RRD's. I have never tried the wicks that you have spoken of..I just thought I would let you know that the CD's are great and if you wanted a slower burn those may be worth a try..I use CD 14-18 in my 8oz. masons,depending on the fo's.HTH.... Kimmeroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni&cheese Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 FunFlames, I use 1.32 oz./lb, except on heavy or super conc. FO's, and no trouble. Here's the trick. I add fragrance to the pitcher first -- temp reasons more than anything -- then I add dye, then I pour from the vat into the pitcher, then top off on the scale to exactly 64 oz. which runs me approx. 8-8.5%, and no synerisis (or however you spell it.) I heat the wax to 188F because 90% of FO's bind in this temp range. But you CAN'T leave CBA there for long! Manuf. specs say 155F. If you look on every FO bottle you buy, you will see the directions to be to add 6 to 10%, but I felt like I should find out the FO load of the wax from the wax manufacturer, to play it safe. Besides, if I have to add THAT much, I need to be ISO another fragrance dealer that has an higher concentration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni&cheese Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 Kimmeroo, how's the HT with the CD's? I need to look in my books, but I think I took issue with them or something. But it never hurts to re-test, as wax, and opinions both change over time.Thanks for the tip!!Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden Sass Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 mac n cheese,Haven't tested too many LX wicks, but am testing a 16oz apoth. right now 4" with 1 oz pumpkin souflee fragrance with 1 dye chip and LX 26... finding the wick to have a big 'shroom'... burning alright although not a big HT - perhaps b/c I'm not using enough FO, though. With HTP 1212's I'm not getting the mushrooming, but the melt pool isn't quite reaching the edges of the jar. I think I may try the CD's next too... No expert by any means, this is just what I'm testing right now!hth,Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmeroo Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I personally think I have excellent hot throw! I am happy so far..I will continue testing until Spring and if it goes as well as it has been I will switch to this(CBA) wax for my business.I was using 415..great throw horrid tops.I am going to testthe 2 together also and see what happens for me.Good luck to ya! Kimmeroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni&cheese Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 As a matter of fact, it IS the exact lot#. Hmmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroni&cheese Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 Also interesting how the NGI wax's forum is locked up...convenient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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