Is Honey Vegan???

[JacquiO]

I know this sounds like a really dumb question but I was perusing one of the sponsered sites here on CT (or is it CS now? I guess I have to get used to that, but I transgress) - I won't say which site it was but they have a honey soap advertised as vegan.

Not that I'm saying honey harvesting is cruel to bees or anything. I just don't see how honey can be any more vegan than cow's milk. Am I missing something? Does this soap maker just not get it? Or am I some how confused? Does anyone else think honey is VEGAN???

[Casey]

Nope. Can't use honey and call it vegan. It's why I think vegan's are a little nuts. Being anti-honey is just plain stupid, imo.

[mystical_angel1219]

Ah, it's an animal product, it's not vegan.

What a fool, to make such a claim. I'm surprised people fall for it.

[topofmurrayhill]

I've met some vegan honeys.

[kidsngarden]

There was this 7 year old girl buying some of my lip balm at a holiday show. She said, "Excuse me, but does your lip balm have any animal products in it?" I said, "Well there is beeswax and it kills bees to get it"

She said, "that's ok, I hate bees anyway!" I got a good chuckle.

I know you don't have to kill bees to get the honey, but it is an animal by product for sure, though I think bees of less of an animal than say, my goat. (this is from a gal who raises her own meat and loves LARD in my soap, LOL!)

Bethany

[ah-soy]

Oh Top...sigh!!! :rolleyes2

Wait a minute...if I remember my bio classes, bees are insects not animals...or was that mammals, or amphibians or marsupials??? I'm so confused!

[Camay]

Umm, insects are animals, as are marsupials, mammals and amphibians (or were you being sarcastic? Sometimes it is hard to tell).

[ah-soy]

Sorry, late night sarcasm there

[CareBear]

OT a bit - but why would harvesting the wax kill the bees?

[JacquiO]

According to Jbement on this post it doesn't kill bees.

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65809&page=2&highlight=WHAT+IS+PARAFFIN

jbement vbmenu_register("postmenu_608402", true);

Supa Star

Join Date: Nov 2006

Location: Coastal Maine

Posts: 15

Trader Rating: 0/0% </B>

Re: This is Paraffin?!

The best (and lightest) beeswax comes from the honey cappings, or the tops of the honeycomb cells created by the bees for storing honey. When the boxes (called supers) containing the honey-filled frames are removed from the hives, each honey-filled frame has the cappings removed and the honey removed from both sides via spinning in an extractor. The cappings are cleaned and filtered for use as great smelling beeswax.

No harm to the bees, and given all the care/expense bees require these days to be kept pest free and healthy, you should consider hive products such as wax and honey as a fair exchange for maintaining the long term health of the bees.

[JacquiO]

You have to forgive me I was cruising the board at 1am last night 'cause I couldn't sleep and I couldn't help myself ranting about a soap maker would call a honey soap vegan.

I like honey and I like handmade soap and I like the 2 together. But honey soap is no more vegan than goat's milk soap eventhough no harm comes to the goat either. Well at least until you put him in a curry.

[Late Night]

Sorry, late night sarcasm there

Hey Leave me out of this one!

[TAS]

There are several "categories" to the vegan/vegetarian world. Some do not consume any animal product (this includes silk, beeswax, goats milk). Some will consume cheese, milk, eggs. Some will consume turkey, chicken and fish. It gets a little difficult at times to keep it all straight. I label everything so that they can see what they are getting and let them make the choice.

I have noticed that leather shoes seems to be okay with vegans (scratching my head) and that the usage of palm does not bother them when the rain forest is being destroyed and animals killed.

We live in interesting times.

TAS

[dirtybirdsoaps]

heres a link explaing....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganbut heres an article on the specific topic hopefully this will help the issue. Most people dont realize what being VEGAN includes since theres many issues people dont notice like the SILK, WOOL, and LEATHER. VEGANS WILL NOT USE THESE. Unless perhaps they are vegetarian and NOT VEGAN. Some think its time consuming and a lot of energy to make sure its VEGAN (kinda like myself-I need more will power and time)[edit] Animal productsMain article: Animal productThe term "animal product" in a vegan context refers to any material derived from animals for human use.[2] Notable animal products include meat, poultry, seafood, eggs, dairy products, honey, fur, leather, wool, and silk.[3] Common animal by-products include gelatin, lanolin, rennet, whey, beeswax and shellac.[3]Animal ingredients can be found in countless products and are used in the production of—though not always present in the final form of—many more;[21][22][23] many of these ingredients are esoteric,[24][25] also have non-animal sources,[26] and especially in non-food products may not even be identified.[21] Although some vegans attempt to avoid all these ingredients, Vegan Outreach argues that "it can be prohibitively expensive and time-consuming to shun every minor or hidden animal-derived ingredient," and therefore that doing what is "best for preventing suffering" is more important than identifying and excluding every animal ingredient.[27][28]Although honey and silk are by definition an animal product, some vegans consider their use and the use of other insect products to be acceptable.[29]

[beautifulfeetcandles]

hmm.. so would tussah silk not be vegan? Oops.. my question was answered above.

[kidsngarden]

Huh, I need to investigate more on the beeswax thing because I have always heard it killed the bees to get it...

Bethany

[TAS]

I know a man who makes mead and has given me beeswax in the past. I am going to email him and ask him. Hopefully he will reply.

TAS

[TAS]

Here is my question:

Hi Mark,

It's Teresa here - the soapmaker - with a question for you concerning beeswax. At one of my soap making forums we are having a discussion. Does one have to kill bees in order to get the beeswax?! Yikes! If that is the case I will stop using beeswax because we need to keep the bees alive. Please let me know.

And here is his answer:

Thankfully you do not have to kill bees, or even destroy their habitat in order to get beeswax. All of our wax is derived from the process of harvesting honey. The honeycomb is sealed by the bees when the honey is ready. We slice a thin layer of wax off of the top of the honeycomb to reveal the honey and then spin it out of the comb mechanically. The little bit of wax that is cut off of the comb is the beeswax that we use for our bottles, lotions, etc. We get about 10 pounds per year and 1500 lb of honey. Thus, the beeswax is a hot commodity for Medovina.

****

Hope this helps us understand the process a bit better.

TAS

[kidsngarden]

Thank you! Because of the explaination of the process I wonder how it is that we can have as much beeswax as we do around? I don't want to stir the pot here, but if a honey person harvests 1500 pounds of honey and only 10 pounds of wax, I wonder if some manufacturers do take to whole comb which would kill the bees? Or if it was an old school practice? I've just heard this from so many people I just have to wonder where the rumor started?

Just thinking out loud

Bethany

[Lifelace]

Aren't there many kinds of honey though? I know at the grocery store I've seen different kinds like orange blossom and also clover honey for example. I know that stuff is not really honey and I've never tasted them but I wonder if it has some of the same qualities as real honey and could be used in soaps etc...and they would be vegan.

Melany

[CareBear]

Melany those are real honey - it's just the primary type of flower from which the bees harvest the pollen to make the honey that is being indicated.

[dirtybirdsoaps]

Aren't there many kinds of honey though? I know at the grocery store I've seen different kinds like orange blossom and also clover honey for example. I know that stuff is not really honey and I've never tasted them but I wonder if it has some of the same qualities as real honey and could be used in soaps etc...and they would be vegan.

Melany

All of those have honey in them but they are not 100% honey

[CareBear]

please tell me a brand that is not because I've not come across it. and the jars in my cupboard are all 100% honey.

For example I have Dutch Gold Orange Blossom Honey and the label says 100% honey. Went and looked at their web site and read this:

"In order to create true Orange Blossom honey, beekeepers move their beehives into the orange groves after extracting existing honey from the comb cells. As the orange trees begin to blossom, the bees will visit the aromatic blossoms, collecting the sweet, citric nectar. When the last blossoms are growing into juicy oranges, the beekeepers will take their hives home. Before placing the hives near another floral source, the honey is extracted from the hives, resulting in delectable Orange Blossom Honey."

If other brands are different I'd like to know.

[Stella1952]

Perhaps the confusion is arising from country of origin. Tupelo honey, for example, is my favorite and is becoming increasingly hard to find because of the destruction of the habitat of tupelo trees. Expensive, specialty honeys are sometimes mixed with generic honey from many different countries - Brazil, Mexico, Argentina come to mind - to reduce the cost. Still all honey, but not all the same origin.

I have not seen any honey that wasn't 100% honey, but it wouldn't surprise me... only solution is to read the label carefully.

[Lifelace]

Ahhhhhhhh....see, I thought clover honey was some kind of nectar extracted from the flower. I didn't know it was still from bees, my bad! We learn something new every day.

Melany